RBC6 - Scrappy Sumerians (C3C Demi SG)

I don't like it either, and don't quite get it. I know when a lux deal falls through of if you get hammered IBT, it makes sense to have some riots, but when you carefully check moods and *nothing happens* then have 4-5 riots, that's just not right. I hope it's a bug, not a new feature -- I've never seen this before.

It's a nice surprise, btw, to be in a Demi game and see our self-research ability is great, that buying all techs isn't the only way to go if you focus on sci bldgs and have a decent size empire.

Charis
 
One other thing I really do not like, is cities rioting, and then when you zoom in, you have like 2 happy, 1 content, and 2 unhappy. Makes you wonder what is happening.

Grimjack
 
Originally posted by Grimjack
One other thing I really do not like, is cities rioting, and then when you zoom in, you have like 2 happy, 1 content, and 2 unhappy. Makes you wonder what is happening.

Grimjack

I've noticed this strange phenomenon too.
My guess is that this is what's happening:

When a lux deal is about to end (after 20 turns) there are two options:
1: You renegotiate the deal.
2: Your opponent renegotiates the deal - between turns -
If you allow your opponent to renegotiate the deal, you have temporarily lost the luxury. This can cause some cities to riot. You then buy the lux back, resolving the riots. The cities did riot though, and that is what you'll see.
If you renegotiate the deal yourself, you'll never lose the lux and no riot will occur.

Just a guess..

Banzai!
 
Good guess Banzai, and worth to look into further.
I will see what time I have for this.

Grimjack
 
Once again, my predecessors have laid down the hammer on the Iros, overcoming their resistance and gassing them. And once again I have the honor to continue their great work and try to fulfill their vision of how this war should end - I hope I won't fail them. I'm amazed to notice the Iros are still a democracy! How they manage that is beyond me...

But wait...there's a second war we are involved in! It's against the Hitties. Hm, wait a minute...this is really still the same war that I started on my second last watch?!? :rotfl: Well, let's see if I can manage that one, too. :D

I look into our cities trying to find something to micromanage or change, but the only thing I do is to change a scientist in Zabalam into a policeman, lowering the ETA for the courthouse from 21 to 14, and to put a corrupt city on max growth. Otherwise all is fine, which is no wonder, now that I realize who played before me...

(I) Apart from a lot of Hittie galleys, the only movement I see is an Iroquois longbow and a rifleman near Ganogeh. The citizens of Ganogeh are deeply disappointed, correctly guessing that this won't be enough to recapture the city, and thus end all resistance.

1060 AD (1): Most conveniently, the longbow is in striking range of our 4hp elite MDI, so he goes fishing, but without luck. Gawauge is captured, leaving its barracks intact.

1070 AD (2): Our first army advances on London and catches it with its pants down - it's only defended by pikes, but two rifles are just outside on their way into the city. :mischief: I send in all armies who are able to reach the city, and after they have killed several pikes there's still a defender left. So in order to capture the city before the rifles reach it, I decide to send in a 3hp cav, who does the job and we now own Copernicus' Observatory and two tourist attractions: The Oracle and the Colossus.

Steam is due in 1, so I lower science until ETA is in 2 and change enough taxmen into scientists until is at 1 again.

(I) Now here comes a surprise! The Iros land three cavalry and a knight near London, probably coming from their islands, and cover them with a rifleman. Thanks Hia for at least trying to put up a fight, but somebody should have told you that your landing could actually have been successful if you had landed that force in our backyard...

1080 AD (3): Steam power comes in, and next up is industrialization in 7. Ah damn, steam power has made the hanging gardens obsolete, so Ur riots! :eek: I scroll ahead to fix the rest of the cities, then raise lux to 20%. While doing this, I notice for the first time that Egypt has a city on our continent - since when? So there's a resource hidden there, probably oil. I have the feeling that this city will have to go at some point.

Somebody has already put all our workers into stacks ideal for railroading and has already positioned them in our core - thanks! The only problem is...despite our large empire, we have no coal. :rolleyes: In fact, our whole continent has only one source, at Gayagaahe, two cities north of London. I had planned to capture the western Iro cities first, but this has changed my plans!

First, our two most wounded armies get rid of the rifle, the cavs and the knight. Then one of our cav armies kills two rifles in Coventry and captures the city.

I can't remember when I last built a frigate, if ever, but I'm sooo bored of all the Hittie galleys moving around so I order one up. Forgive me this small inefficiency, but I'd like to have some fun against the Hitties, too...

(I) The Iros move a rifle towards London.

1090 AD (4): A vet cav kills the rifle so that our wounded armies can heal instead. Another army advances on Gayagaahe, kills a rifle and a pike and takes the city! As soon as its borders expand, we will have coal.

In other news, the AIs still have nothing to offer for any of our techs or luxuries. And the Iros are still a democracy...

1100 AD (5): Ur completes hospital and starts the military academy as a prebuild for universal suffrage. We capture Kawauka, and position the hybrid armies to attack St. Regis next turn. I rush a library in Gayagahee.

(I) Aztecs demand wines! But they bluff, of course. The Iros move three rifles and a longbow near St. Regis.

1110 AD (6): I disband a newly captured worker in Gayagaahe to be able to rush a temple there now (I *want* that coal!) and then have to sell our WM around to be able to do it actually.

I ignore the rifles near St. Regis and attack the city instead, but since the first army is sufficient to take the city (killing a rifle, a musket and a longbow), the second hybrid army kills one of the rifles and the longbow on its way to the next city.

(I) The Aztecs destroy the Mongols. Then the Iro rifleman attacks our 16hp hybrid army in St. Regis? And manages to do 6 damage before dying?!? :eek: Maybe the AI has some form of inner sight and can 'predict' the next numbers from the pRNG... :P

1120 AD (7): Our army kills a musket and a pike and takes Goigouen. Our cav armies move towards Akwesasne, the current Iro capital. The Aztecs finally have some money available, so I sell them silks for their WM, 11 gold and 19gpt.

(I) The Hittie galleys try to flee from my mighty frigate, but I'm catching up! :vampire:

1130 AD (8): We now have coal! And I notice the worker stack in our core are too small - we need six workers to railroad one tile, not three. :p

Two dead rifles later, Akwesasne is ours, and both Oka and Hastings get their first defending rifle killed. Armies rock.

1140 AD (9): Hastings is defended by two riflemen, and I nearly lose one hybrid army but take it. Oka's remaining two rifles are killed, too, and the continent is ours! :hammer:

Our first pollution at Lagash is cleared.

1150 AD (10): Industrialization comes in. I order up the corporation next (vetoable); no need to rush to scientific methods because the AIs are so hopelessly behind, and stock exchanges would be nice. Core cities get their productions swapped to factory, even the suffrage prebuild - we can take our time, the AIs don't even have steam power yet.

rbc6-1150ad.jpg


Cleo has come up with communism this turn, which we want to have eventually for police stations. No beakers have been invested in corporation yet, so we could change that. An alternative would be electricity, then replacable parts for the faster workers.

Okay, regarding the Iros, what next? The continent is ours, so we could make peace now and reduce luxury and increase research if we want to. Alternatively, we could rush one or two galleons to destroy the Iros completely, or at least capture Kiohero and Kente to remove cultural pressure. I'd vote for capturing Kiohero and Kente, but I'd be fine with any decision the team or our next leader makes.

Personally, I'm at peace with the Iros now. I had two turns in a row where I could bash them, first conquering the choke point, now throwing them off the continent, so my hunger for revenge is satisfied for now.

Industrial revolution

Roster:

Charis
Kylearan
Grimjack <-- UP
Aggie <-- on deck
Griselda
Speaker

-Kylearan
 
Nice turns Kylearan. Way to be scrappy! :hammer:

Originally posted by Kylearan
Somebody has already put all our workers into stacks ideal for railroading and has already positioned them in our core - thanks!
You're welcome. ;)

And I notice the worker stack in our core are too small - we need six workers to railroad one tile, not three. :p
Notihg wrong with building two railroads in 2 turns when you have as few workers as we do.

I'd vote for capturing Kiohero and Kente, but I'd be fine with any decision the team or our next leader makes.
With luxuries at only 20%, press on and capture Kiohero and Kente!
 
Notihg wrong with building two railroads in 2 turns when you have as few workers as we do.

Excuse my nitpicking, but isn't railroading one tile on turn one, then a second tile on turn two superior to railing two tiles in parallel? Sending all six workers working the first tile lets you have the effect of the first railroad one turn sooner. Granted that's no biggie, but in a game where so much is micormanaged...

I don't intend to criticize, I'm just curious if I'm missing something here. :)

-Kylearan
 
Very well done, Kylearan :hammer:

I would check the following: will Iro give us all island cities (besides the capital) for peace? If so, take them, build two galleys up north, and after 20 turns wipe them out at Kente. If not, you definitely want to capture Kiohero, no need to leave even one blight on our landmass.

Speaking of blights, when no deals with Egypt, we could kick them off and slow them down just a tad by taking that city, but it's so low priority we could wait until they demand tribute and invite scrappiness.

As for the workers, if you have even a medium number of workers, yes, six in one turn is better than a pair of three for two turns each. But if we have a REALLY small number of workers such that you have more cities needing a few rails than 6-man teams, then it's probably best to split up into 3-man crews and send them to cities where that 1-2 extra food or shields will kick them into a better spt range.

Although the Hittite 'war' has been amusing, and in fact it gives us a small amount of war happiness, with the Iro war almost over we have the propsect of being at FULL peace, for the first time in probably 2000 years, to coincide with our building phase. Be sure to skim tons of workers from the corrupt Iro subcontinent for rail duty, then irrigate their lands and merge back.

Good luck Grimjack and Aggie,
We're firing on all cylinders guys, good job :goodjob:
Charis
 
Got it. WIll likely be able to finish tonight. Seems like we will have quiet turns.

(* Fingers crossed. *)

Grimjack
 
Regarding inexplicable riots:

When a lux deal is about to end (after 20 turns) ...
2: Your opponent renegotiates the deal - between turns -
If you allow your opponent to renegotiate the deal, you have temporarily lost the luxury.


This is not true. If an AI leader pops up between turns asking to renegotiate a luxury deal (actually, they ask to terminate and the game lets you propose a new deal), and in that same diplomatic session you make a new deal to keep importing the luxury, there is no gap where you temporarily lose it.

There are situations where a city can riot but will look okay when you zoom to it. Here are some:

* A temporary happiness penalty (whipping, drafting, propaganda) just wore off this turn. First, happiness is checked and rioting assessed, then the penalty is decremented and can be removed before you zoom to the city.
* The city rioted, then an event such as pollution or cultural expansion or starvation caused the game to recalculate the citizens automatically.
* The city just built a happiness improvement this turn. If the shield box is already completely full (like after a rush), even a rioting city can complete an improvement.
* The city just expanded culture this turn and pulled in another luxury.
* A foreign national causing "stop the aggression" unhappiness just converted to your nationality. (rare)
 
RBC6, Scrappy Sumerians. 1150AD
WHat a nice blue shade the world is. It is time to really put a fire on the scientists though, now that our nice military have done their job to keep us secure.

It is time to let the army rest, and I call up the Iroquois. They are of course more than happy to all move into a small reservation off the coast, called Kente. They are somewhat wondering what they should eat up in the tundra, but I reccon they can live off of fish and seals.
Just to really get in a nice mellow mood here, I dial up the Hittites, and sign peace with them as well.
I also buy Ivory from Zulus for Gems,..... No wait a minute. Zulus are tiny. I doublecheck their status, to make sure they are not due for extinction before triggering the deal.
I get Ivory from the Zulu for Gems, Wines, Silks and 10 gpt. The chess/piano players REALLY wanted some ivory.
Kuara is under slight cultural pressure from the Egyptian blight, so I rush the temple.
I thought I could get away with zero luxtax, but our hospitalized cities that we have spent muchos dineros on, have become so spoilt, they demand some government subsidies. As you all know, we are not called scrappy for nothing, but we are beaten hands down by our own populace, so I reluctantly opens up a 10 % government subsidy for the betterment of the Sumerian people.
Good news is that 100% science, and 90 % science is the same time schedule, 5 turns.
Switch the temples up north to workers, plan being to rush temples when I get the money, and in the meantime, perhaps a worker or two will complete.


IBT: We lose our furs. Renegotiate deal is on. I do not mind, but I do know some other people who do, so check the settings if you do not like it, because I do not change settings unless I feel I have to.
Resign the deal with furs and 23 gold from Azetcs for WInes and gems.
Get battlefield Medicine sign.
Salamanca Barracks->Worker, Grand River Worker->Worker, Cattaraugus Worker->Worker, Tonawanda Courthouse->University ( Most probably police station prebuild. )
Mauch Chunk Worker->Worker, Panama West Courthouse->Temple, Kuara Temple->University,

1160: Oh my gosh, we have an honest to god Frigate. Long time no see sailors.

IBT: London worker->worker, York worker->worker, Erech Hosital->Factory, Caughnawaga Market->University, Veto myself, and switch to Hospital instead. Der Aqueduct->Courthouse,

1170 Rush a temple in Goigouen. I move out our armies of the captured cities just in case.

IBT Goigouen Temple->Worker, A volcano erupts somewhere abroad. They are rather excited in those countries. Hah, like something is as interesting as getting together a unified theory upon the ancient currency lore.
(The Corporation in two. )

1180 Railroad workers from the north meet up with the crew from the south, and much partying is heard throughout the lands.
I rush a couple of workers in the iro lands.
I think a bit about prebuilding Stock markets, but realize that since we went directly to them from Industrialization, that we still do not have factories.
Also, We may want to reconsider the ToE jump, as we could really benefit from Hoovers.

IBT: Salamanca worker->worker, York Worker->worker, Hastings Worker->worker, Zabalam Courthouse->worker, Panama East Courthouse->Market,

1190 As usual the AIs cannot scrape even 5 gpt to pay for anything. NOt even their combined income would be 5 gpt....
Road net is almost complete, so I can statr to rail the core to better production. It will take a while before I have the workers available to optimize though.

IBT: Corporation comes in, and I go for Electricity. Ur Factory->StockMarket Nope, belay that, I start Smiths in Ur.
Nopem change that as well, I start a coal plant. Grand River WOrker->Worker, Mauch Chunk Worker->Worker, Akwesasne Worker->Worker, Ganogeh Worker->Worker, Gayagee worker->Worker, Goiguen Worker->Worker, Panama West Riots. :(

1200Ad Rush a temple in our most northern outpost to relieve some cultural pressure. Try as I might, I cannot get Electricity any faster than 7 turns. ( Unless I commit a large number of scientists.. )

IBT: Ooo, a deal where we got 169gpt from the egyptians ran out, and we suddenly get -150gpt with a treasury of 48. I will see what I can renegotiate.
Hmm, for some reason only 91 gpt is available now. I wonder what happened to the rest of the money. I sell Cleopatra Steam for the low low price of 91 gpt. We need her money to keep our science running.
Income now if -59 gpt, and we have a treasury of 48 gold. Lets hope nothing crucial gets lost.
We lose a worker. Zabalam worker->Aqueduct, Kawauka temple->Worker,

1210 Lower science to 70% so we run a positive cash flow.
Egypt has some gpt now. Weird. I sell her WInes for 11 gpt and 110 gold. I do not know where the 110 gold came from, but probably from some secret hidden gpt machine that I couldn't trade from during the IBT.

IBT: Salamance worker->worker, Lagash Factory->Coal plant

1220 I sell Steam to Aztecs for 44 gpt and 70 gold. Also dirt cheap, but I can research one turn faster.

IBT: Ur Coal plant->Smiths, Allegheny Court->Market ( For happiness. ) Chondote Aqueduct->University,

1230. Hmm, Thats a rather unexpectedly good deal. I get 110 gold and 53 gpt from Iros for Steam. Iros have one size 3 city. Thats an income I would be envious if I could get in my OCCs.

IBT: London worker->Worker, Umma Factory->Stock Exchange, Tyendenaga Harbor->University, Oka Worker->Worker,

1240 Egypt has money again, and I am tempted to sell them Sanitation. I will leave the option open for the next player. Normally at this phase when I am living off of the AIs money, I will trade them techs elading to them making more money, so I can get that money for researching even more expensive techs.
I redo a silks deal that expired and sell for their gold and 13 gpt instead of 11 gpt.

IBT: Salamance worker->worker, Grand river worker->worker, Sumer Factory->Coal plant, Oil springs Temple->worker, Kish Factory ->Stock exchange, and some ten more workers.

1250: I have still not optimized food/shield production in Ur and the other big cities. The cities I build coal plants in are the future wonder cities. I may have a redundant such, and feel free to make a stock market in one of them.
I suggest we research for Hoovers. Replacement parts/Democracy would also be good. I didn't think of democracy until now, you could perhaps revolt into democracy. We are not religious though, so it would be expensive.
WOrkers are a bit spread out in the north, due to me just moving them two turns before letting them road.

Grab the save.

Grimjack




Charis
Kylearan
Grimjack -- Just played
Aggie -- About to start playing
Speaker -- Getting ready
 
IHT: I agree with the Electricity/Scientific Method path. We are scientific freaks and we want to get advanced ASAP. The best way: build ToE! I am planning to be in a builder mode unless some of the other civs wants me to get scrappy :)

Looking at the science picture, I see that we are very advanced. Partly because the AI decided to research the techs that ultimatelly will lead to their doom: Fasicm and Communism. We are left with civs that rarely played a leading tech role in my games.

-Egyptians, Aztecs and Zulu lack Industrialization, Corporation and Sanitation
-The Hittites.... :lol:

I don't change a whole lot, because I agree with the things we have to build up.

Turn 1 (1255 AD) :sleep:

Turn 2 (1260 AD) Lagasch: coal plant->stock exchange. Kisurra: harbor->market. We discover Electricity, next is Scientific Method in 5.

The AI has nothing decent to offer for my beautiful techs. I am already researching at 80%, which gives me the max result. Extra income wouldn't change that. The income is +17 gpt at the moment.

Turn 3 (1265 AD) A couple of workers are ready for work and Panama West riots. Those are the highlights of this turn.

Turn 4 (1270 AD) Tippecanoe: factory->coal plant. Science to 70%, Scientific Method still in 3.

IT: The Aztecs and the Iroquois sign a MPP.

Turn 5 (1275 AD) Isin: factory->coal plant.

Turn 6 (1280 AD) Ur: Smith' Trading Company->bank (bank? :o ), Sumer: coal plant->stock exchange, Lagash: stock exchange->Universal Suffrage (as prebuild for ToE/Hoover), Kish: Stock Exchange->Military Academy, Umma: stock exchange->coal plant.

Science goes to 60%. We make 239 gpt and have SciMeth in 1.

Turn 7 (1285 AD) We discover Scientific Method and Replaceable Parts is in 7, at 80% science and 109 gpt. We have 875 gold in cash. Centralia: market->university. Ur is switched to ToE in 7. We CAN get Rep Parts in 6, but that would not be in line with our ToE build and would therefore slow down tech research.

Egypt now has Electricity, but the Aztecs don't know it. I sell it for 48 gpt and 100 gold. I do this to prevent that Egypt can profit from it.

Turn 8 (1290 AD) Tonawanda: university->market place. Akshak: factory->bank. Science to 70%, because we suddenly could get Rep Parts quicker.

Turn 9 (1295 AD) Erech: factory->stock exchange.

Turn 10 (1300 AD) Tonawanda riots :mad: Agade: factory->bank.

No ship or foreign unit entered our territory in my 10 turns.

I don't like the prices that the AI wants to give us for our technology. The Zulu have dyes though, we'd like that.

Let's build us a Space Ship (in due time) :D

1300 AD save
 
A few centuries of not having to be scrappy would be nice.
Nice turn Aggie!

On tech sales... some interesting points raised -- we have two paths guys, and I would like to hear other input on how we want to go.

I) Cooperative science - by selling techs fairly quickly, and for whatever the AI can afford to pay we'll actually launch quicker (assuming of course no one pulls 'ahead' and that we don't get into a war, but owning our continent that's not a big fear). This is because we'll keep ALL AI up to us in science then trade techs we research for ones they do.

II) Selfish science - to see just how big a lead we can get and sustain by researching by ourselves and never selling below full market price.

I have a slight but not huge leaning toward #2. The spirit of the variant is to be not only self sufficient but superior in technology, so why play a style where we give the fruit of our labor out cheaply and rely on occasional researches by them. Also, I'm just plain curious to see *how much* of a tech lead a human can sustain, when they go full bore on science. I've actually not tried that since about Regent diff years ago :P

What we're currently doing, or at least what happened on Grimjack's turn, was something in between. If we go route 1, there's no reason not to gift ALL techs to Hittites, to sell/give away our tech lead and get the other civs doing their share of the research. If we go route 2, these hugely discounted sales of tech have to stop, and now. More specifically, *never sell a monopoly* unless a civ can pay FULL price. That is, you find a price where it will pay, and 1gpt more makes it 'doubtful' or 'close'. If instead you get 'never!' that means they can NOT pay market price. And then, once you sell it to one civ, see who else can pay full market price, and sell to them. Again, don't sell less than full price. Stick to this non-selling strictly, if we want to go route ii and see what kind of lead we can get.
Selling Steam and/or Industrialization is essentially :smoke: unless you're specifically wanting to go route I. That just gets them with full rails and full production quicker, giving them more ability to catch up.

I'ld prefer a consensus and have us stick to this plan - whether it's "sharing scientists" or "selfish scientists" -- thoughts?
Charis
 
Although #2 appears to be more my playing style, it essentially means that we have a lot of relatively peaceful building ahead of us, since Space is the preffered win.

Regarding #1, I can imagine that the AI will be pulling ahead when we give away technology and aren't allowed to buy it. But if so, then we simply have to take measures and destroy the space ship. It will make the game quicker and possibly more exciting.

At the end of the day we can't lose this game if we just play it out. Both options are fine with me, but #1 is something new for me.
 
Originally posted by Charis
More specifically, *never sell a monopoly* unless a civ can pay FULL price. That is, you find a price where it will pay, and 1gpt more makes it 'doubtful' or 'close'. If instead you get 'never!' that means they can NOT pay market price. And then, once you sell it to one civ, see who else can pay full market price, and sell to them. Again, don't sell less than full price.

When I follow an SG, I try to learn something from every game, and I just learned something new today! I've often heard some of the players talk about whether or not they got "full price", and I generally have a feel for whether they are paying me what I think it's worth, or not, but I haven't seen it described so precisely before. It makes sense, either they are giving you all they can afford, or they are stopping at what they think it is worth, so you know the market price now. Thanks! :goodjob:
 
Back
Top Bottom