RBD SG3 - The Builders

Wow, people seem to do a lot of posting from around midnight to noon (as opposed to me, doing all my posts late afternoon to evening)! :D

Charis: I'm not sure I like the 222 per turn agreement - I don't ever like paying the AI that much money, especially per turn, since it insures peace with that AI for twenty turns. I am surprised, though, that MPP's cause YOU to get your reputation trashed - yet another reason to stay away from them. Anyway, I think this deal is going to get our reputation trashed and that there isn't much of a way out of it - Alex isn't going to end the deal with that much money coming in, and the net result is a speeding of Alex's tech rate and a slowing of ours (is Alex still in democracy?). My verdict: :smoke:

As for the saltpeter deal, I personally have experienced industrial age warfare against the Russians with cossacks, and it is slow going if the best unit you have is a knight. I think in that deal the benefits outweighed the concessions you had to make to Japan.

On the theory of evolution, I believe it gives you the least expensive techs regardless of how much research you have put into a specific tech. The only anecdote I can offer on this subject is that one time when I finished TOE, I had Atomic Theory, Replacable Parts, and was researching the Corporation (I don't remember how many turns I was into it, but I had turned the research rate down, for I was expecting TOE to give it to me for free). Upon the completion of TOE, I got as my free techs Electronics and Radio. :confused: Does Radio cost less than The Corporation? And for that matter, do Steel and Refining cost less than Electronics, for if that was so, wouldn't I get The Corporation and Steel or Refining as my free technologies?

And Charis, as to your making long posts, I really enjoy reading what you have to say. In my opinion, that's a good deal of what makes succession games fun. :goodjob:
 
If we're all reasonably sure that we will not get atomic theory under Charis' current plan, maybe we can research the Corporation at our fastest rate as soon as we get it and switch Boston to a Palace placeholder for the interim. This would waste shields, but I believe that it would get us Atomic Theory out of TOE. Is this a good idea, or simply another case of :smoke: ?
 
I'm still betting current plan is correct, finish espio and start corp, finishing toe in the middle of that research. The damage is already done in a sense, please give it at least a chance for the intended good!! Two weeds don't make a flower! :P

Charis
 
Well I enjoy the posts here and for what it's worth, Charis your posts aren't as long as Sirians can be and I like both of them so no worries in my opinion from that. :D

I do have a question about ROP agreements however that maybe someone can answer...

I have noticed that there are numerous comments about renegotiating ROP agreements so the AI gives the player more money, etc. I know when you offer maps, or diplomatic argeements, etc, you can always seem to ask the AI what they would give for this item but with a ROP I always seem to only get the option to ask them what it would take for a ROP.

Am I missing something or when you folks negotiate or re-negotiate ROP's do you simply add or subtract things until you maximize profits/benefit from the AI?

I suppose I am simply lazy but that almost seems to be more of a tedious hassle than it's worth as opposed to the other agreements when you can simply place a world map on the table for example and tell the AI "show me what you'll give" type thing.

Anyone care to comment?? Thanks!:)
 
I've already in effect post my "got it" back on the RBD forum (except for the actually having the save file in my possession part ;) ), but I'll reiterate here. As I've got nothing pressing to do today, you can probably expect some sort of resolution to all this speculation sometime this afternoon, after I take a short nap (I had to wake up early for a thoroughly unimportant class, but since that was the only one of the day and I don't work... :sleep: ).

Hopefully Rome will keep its nose clean just long enough for us to weasel out of this MPP. If they do go to war and we're not honor bound to fight in it, all I forsee happening is Rome losing its colonies in the vicinity of Russia, and maybe somewhere the world's smallest violin would play the world's saddest song, but nobody in America would shed many tears for that loss.
 
Originally posted by Ozymandous
Am I missing something or when you folks negotiate or re-negotiate ROP's do you simply add or subtract things until you maximize profits/benefit from the AI?

Well, yes. That's what I do, anyway :)
 
The Deacon wrote down in his diary...

"Today this journal is stained with the tears of a nervous wreck and fool. So haughty I was, not seeking the ways of the almighty but trying to be sophisticated in the ways of the world. Ha! Did I botch that! I had thought that the impudence of Greece could be repudiated by a deal which would financially ruin his warmongering black soul, shore up our position in the colonies, and bring us new wisdom. Instead this will surely go down as the "Deacon Debacle", where I either end up making Greece filthy rich, empowering them in the war against our neighbors Rome, or where my own... sob... reputation gets a black stain from which it may never recover. Not only that, the Bishop in the order has decried my efforts to learn the secret of the atom. He is plotting even now, to reverse course, but that would just lead us back to the dark ages. There is power, power for GOOD, in that which he on high as made as the building block of all matter. And harness it we must! I had a vision of clean, pure power, in radiant and fluid glory, bathing our nation, and helping us be more productive builders. This was my vision, or the only thing I can now cling too. My flock and I are now having a prayer meeting for the wise General Carbon. May his sword and his pen both be strong and ring true..."

-- The Deacon
 
Well, reports here of some people (on other boards) getting Atomic Theory from ToE flies in the face of all my experience with it, so perhaps it will work out. Surely if the wonder gives us both Atomic and Electronics, I will reverse course and call even the 222gpt "worthwhile" for that result. Atomic, Electronics, and Radio are the three most costly techs in that era. Flight is up there, too. Time to cast the die and she what she rolls up. :)

- Sirian
 
This was, perhaps, one of the most interesting turns that I've played, period. This was a meaty affair, lasting for just a shade over of four hours. I have SO much to write about, I'll just cut to the chase, turn-by-turn:

1325

-I check the trade screen. WE CAN GET OUT OF THE MPP RIGHT NOW!!!!!! I do so. One problem solved. I keep the RoP intact so the Romans can move their malodorous bodies through our territory without having to stop. And throughout my turn, there are hordes of Roman muskets, pikes, Legionaries, spears(!), warriors (!!), horses, and at the end, rifles and Cavalry moving through our territory into India, bound for who knows where. All I know is that none of the cities down there have turned red, and none of the Romans have ever come back.

-I rearrange the tiles in Boston. It stops starving, but it finishes ToE one turn later. I then go to the domestic advisor and take our science down a notch, adding one turn to espionage, but running a 43-gold surplus instead of an 81 gold deficit. Since we're a lock for ToE, there's no sense running to it when we can just walk across the line. I plan on going through with what Charis is going for, and if we don't get the techs we want, it's still free tech that won't be espionage or communism.

-I correct an omission That Theodore C. Roosevelt made during his turn, renaming New Orleans to Ft. New Orleans.

I hit the space bar.

1330

-I don't know what to do with this settler in Russia, and I searched through the last couple posts to find a mention of him, but I didn't find anything. He and his entourage are now headed for the far side of the Saltpeter colony to prevent culture creep from claiming it.

-The vanguard of a bizarre military parade straight from a Roman military history museum makes a tour of the US on its way to India, France, and eventually Greece.

1335

-Joanie turns Polite on us from Gracious, and wants to renegotiate our deal. I slip her two twenty dollar bills and sure enough, that skank is our best friend again and takes the deal up. [pimp]

-I receive five BILLION nag messages about aqueducts and hospitals. I defer all of them until they've finished their current projects.

1340

-I forget to deal out Communism to all of our friends until this turn. Starting with Japan, I get 59 gpt (all their gpt available) and the contents of their treasury, 79g, plus a world map.

-To Joanie for 17 gpt, 12g, and a map to her house...I mean, of the world :blush:

-England wants it for 1g, non-negotiable. I let them take the one turn to research it, instead.

-Rome and India don't seem to be able to trade for it, yet.

-We capture Kursk, the two attacking cavalry losing a combined 1 hp to take out its two defenders. I then add three more cav from Kui to fill out the garrison.

-Batum's temple rushed.

1345

-The resistance in Kursk ends. The people consent to starve to death in a civil manner :satan:

-Rifle reinforcements arrive in Kursk.

1350

-Greece coaxes Japan into an alliance against Rome. For those of you keeping score at home, Japan is still honoring our alliance against Russia, too. So much for "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". I'll post a screenshot of the F4 screen in a seperate post.

-Espionage finished, Corporation started

-Fingers are crossed

-Coal town rushes a temple so it can get some actual coal in its radius.

1355 (The big turn)

-France pulls England into an alliance vs. Russia

-Theory of Evolution finished in Boston





-....





-.........





-...............

-Our techs: Atomic Theory and Replacable Parts! [party]. The Charis Communist Gambit (CCG) can be considered something of a success, or at least decidedly NOT a failure. I switch research over to Electronics, abandoning the Corporation for now, and start prebuilding for Hoover Dam in Boston. I won't cry too long over 1 turn of research lost when we'll gain four more turns of Hoover-influenced production.


-With replacable parts, we get to see where rubber is. We have one source of rubber, 2 squares northWEST of Seattle (as opposed to coal, which is 2 squares northEAST). There is very little rubber in the world, so I documented all the occurences I saw, and I don't think I missed any:

India: 1 JUST outside our border, by Ganges. This is India's only rubber, if we can somehow take that tile, India will be stopped stone-cold in the modern age, with Riflemen and Cavalry only for the rest of their existence.

Rome: 1 by Cumae

Russia: They have NO RUBBER. They weren't even CLOSE to any BEFORE the war. The ONLY site of rubber in that whole stinking jungle in No Man's land was claimed by...

Greece: 1 in the Greek colony city of New Athens, 1 in the homeland by Delphi

France: 2 occurences, 1 by Rheims, and 1 by Avignon.

Japan: Again, NO RUBBER. I think. It's possible I missed a Japanese rubber site.

England: 1 by London.

I go poking around our luxury export deals, and notice that we're not getting nearly as much from them as we should be. I renegotiate all of our Ivory/Wine deals, and get roughly twice as much as we were getting. I use this and our Commie money to underwrite raising the sci rate back to 60%, meaning Electronics comes in 7 turns.

-Memphis, one turn away from its cathedral, riots. No war weariness.

-I blow lots of money upgrading rifles to infantry and cannons to artillery. I haven't done it all yet, I'm trying to at least keep our treasury within sight of 1000.

1360

-Battlefield Medicine completed in Washington

-With little to no pollution popping up (and replaceable parts domestic workers cleaning flatland pollution up in 2 TURNS), I extend the "Neighborhood Watch" to the entire east coast of America. I also engage in little building exercises, like building forts to mark every non-claimed square in our homeland. Workers who don't fit along our east coast are fortified in the Fortress of Solitude (the fort in the forest square by Seattle).

-I think it was on this turn that I dealt Communism to Rome and India, not getting a whole lot for it. But the dividends that Communism pays to the smart dealer doesn't come from the gold per turn you get for the tech, it's the tech/production advantage you possess over your Communist rivals.

-Indianapolis founded on the far side of the Saltpeter colony, claiming some plains rather than desert. As to how we're going to connect Indy to the rest of America...I'm still working on that. Its temple should be rushed at first convenience, which may be hard to find since we're spending lots of money upgrading our rifles and cannons. Probably when the communism deal with Greece ends, we'll have enough gpt to underwrite it.

1365

-Cathy wants to end this war. I decline. We're still winning, and we don't have a scratch of war weariness on us.

-However, Cathy seems to have gotten her grubby hands on Nationalism, and her rifles are giving our cavalry fits, or I would have captured Riga on this turn.

-Curious as to how France is doing, I investigate New Lahore (only 20g), and see that they've gone Commie on us. I investigate another 20g city in India, and they are still in Democracy. At which point I slap my forehead because we could tell that by looking at New Dehli...it's been rioting presumably from war weariness almost my whole turn.

1370
-Those steenking pinko French snatch Riga out from under my nose. :aargh:

-Our largest outbreak of pollution yet, three squares. The people expand the palace in commemoration. :goodjob:

-With Riga captured and the Indians razing whatever Russian city was north of Indy, there is a big gap, one I intend to fill. I rush settlers in Vitebsk and Kui, with one to claim somehow that floodplain wheat that is outside of French Riga's radius, and the other to make a contiguous border with Indianapolis.

1375

-I am JUST unable to take the Russian city just northeast of Kursk, only a 2 hp regular rifle left to contend with and the French en masse outside the city. They'll probably get that one, too.

-The settlers are done and already out in the field with some infantry for escort. Use them to plug the gaps and get a contiguous border out to Indianapolis.

Overall:

-I expanded our eastern galleon fleet over the course of my turn, as the "to Russia" queue outside Miami was getting rather long. We might want to send a few domestic workers to Russia to improve it, though while the four Russian workers now work as well as domestic ones did before replacable parts, they've sitll got their work cut out for them and there's nothing to do in the homeland except for waiting for pollution to happen.

-Cavalry sucks against rifles. Even conscripts were giving me fits. Still no war weariness, and still about 10 turns of war left before we really have the option of peace.

-I built a lot of hospitals over the course of my turn. Also a few courthouses and colosseums, banks when I could, but mostly hospitals and military.

-The rail net in English America is complete, and all the tiles that can be improved, are. The workers are sitting in a stack just outside San Diego.

-The rail net in Russian America has connected all the cities we currently control except for Indianapolis, and is now going eastward into the gap to connect future American cities and Indy.

-There's a lot of upgrading to do in the homeland, I only upgraded a few of the border rifles to infantry, and one or two cannons to artillery. We just don't have the money to upgrade it all at once and I placed a greater emphasis on upgrading overseas.

-If New Dehli ever stops rioting, then India has gone Communist.
 
:eek: :eek:
I don't think I have EVER seen such a tangeled war message before, esp this early in a game.
:shottie: :shottie: :shottie:
 
Good job, Carbon. No weariness all the way through 30 turns of Russian warfare? That's amazing, we must not be taking many casualties. Next item on domestic agenda, police stations (to further stall weariness).

Spending gold to investigate, JUST for the purpose of seeing which govt somebody is in, is a needless expenditure. :smoke: You can do that at any time for free, just click F3 and select the opponent you wish to view. Even lacking spies, you can always see what their current govt is here. I think you right click to change which opponent you're viewing.

Russia has had Nationalism since the beginning of MY turn, in 1200. I was fighting their rifles with knights. Remember? :)


Good luck, Schnarrd. :)


- Sirian
 
Regarding Investigation:

I knew there had to be a better way. 20 g is two rifles into two infantry, but given the circumstances inconsequential in the long run.

Regarding the police:

I actually built quite a few police stations. I knew that there was some sort of building that I made a bunch of besides hospitals, I just couldn't remember what it was. I probably didn't make as many as I am thinking I did, but there were definitely more there when I left than when I arrived.

Regarding future strategy:

The Russians are toast, they just don't know it yet. They have no rubber, which means the best land units they can build are Cossacks and rifles. And I think we took all their saltpeter, so no more Cossacks unless they finegle some from another civ. Schnarrd will still have war for his whole turn due to me renewing the MPP with France, so make the most of those 10. After that, we should make peace and rally the world to dispense of those Greeks, they are definitely the most serious threat to the American Way now that the Russians are exposed as permanently easy bait for tanks (the only civs that could possibly deal in rubber are their arch-nemesis France and their buddy Greece...and if we take out New Athens and/or Delphi in a Greco-American war, then Greece can't deal in rubber).

Some random notes:

English America needs some more serious attention than I gave it. For starters, what the heck is Apolyton packing culturually to have its borders deformed NOT ONE BIT by the surrounding American cities? If we get into a war with Greece, be sure to take this city. And build some more culture there, our borders are hard pressed by even cultural featherweight England. I think they're building military right now, change this to some sort of culture building, as we can fill that area with military better from the homeland than they can homegrow it.

I found a certain elite caravel on extended goto. I left it on to see what its deal was, and seeing no use for it besides scouting, I parked it outside San Diego.

At the beginning of my turn, Russia was sending three frigate/caravel pairs westward. I managed to sink the frigate of the lead one with that 2/5 hp ironclad, and the rest retreated and were never heard from again. The ironclad parked in town to heal, then went north to bombard coastal towns, with limited success. I've built two more ironclads that are just now entering the area, so seaborne bombardment is an option.
 
Sea bombardment with ironclads is a waste of time, unless attacking a resource square to pull it offline. All it will do is increase weariness (whether it shows yet or not) so I advise against it unless as part of a combined assault on a city.

Think of it this way: weariness may eventually push us out of the war. If ironclads yipping and yapping at the heels of Russian cities, to no useful end, brings the weariness on sooner, there is actual cost associated with it. Now battleships would be another story, they actually HIT stuff fairly reliably. :)

- Sirian
 
More on sea bombardment:

Firstly, I did not know that bombing somebody else increased YOUR war weariness. That's a completely new one on me. In this particular case, however, I think that factor is mitigated by a couple of things. The first one being that after the French take that one city northeast of Kursk whose name I forget (I consider it an inevitability, though if they suffer critical failures and do not take it, it should be easy pickings for us), the city that's currently under ironclad bombardment is one of the next most likely targets. The second one is that being parked in its current position allows it to scout for enemy boats and sink them should they appear, bombardment is just something to pass the time before the landlubbers can make it into the area. The third being that a second and third ironclad are coming into the region and the three of them combined could do some serious weakening of the town prior to our artillery moving into range (or in addition to artillery fire once our guns are in range). The fourth being that there has been some limited success in taking out the town's population, it's down to 8 from 9 and I maybe destroyed one of its buildings in the three or four rounds of bombardment that it has sustained.

Now, if we do, for whatever reason, start to experience war-weariness, how long does peace have to last to reset all the whiners to pre-war status? Because I really want to sink my teeth into Greece and/or India and steal their rubber. Heck, we could probably found a quarter-size city by Cleveland expressly for the purpose of stealing that rubber tile. Whatever we do, I don't want India to reach Replacable parts with that tile in their possession, it will make conquering them so much harder than it has to be.

Regarding Charis, lack thereof:

Has he been avoiding this thread? I've seen him toss comments into all of his other active games except this one, which hasn't had any posts in the last 26 hours. I frankly expected him to be all over this after I posted, since all of the potentially weedy decisions he made were actually vindicated in the end. We got Communism and Espionage in time to force ToE to give us Atomic Theory (which saved us a bundle of beakers and got us maybe 10 turns more of Hoover Dam) and Replacable parts (which is one of our target techs to get ASAP). Our MPP actually was renegotiable at the end of his turn, we weren't in any danger of getting a blemish on our rep from our conflicting deals. It wasn't Communism for 222 gold, but it's not half as bleak as we were predicting two days ago.

Regarding dots:

"Blue Dot" Seattle has certainly turned out to be much more than a means to link Chicago to Philadelphia, hasn't it? Too bad it wasn't in range of Iron, as well. Iron Works would have been SO cool to build in this game.
 
Charis does have a lot of games running, he may not have had time today to comment on them all. I'm sure it's no big deal.

Seattle was never intended to be just a linkage city. ALL land near the Palace and FP will, by definition, be productive land, because it's low corruption. Even all desert or all sea or (nearly) all hills/mountains. Look at Dulles. Sure, it's got no shield production, but look at all that trade. :) Much more valuable than any of the colonies above England -- why? Lack of corruption.

I'm not all surprised by our strong manufacturing base. That's exactly what I had in mind from the moment I saw "that perfect spot" for Chicago. Never, in my Civ3 time, have I seen a better location for an FP, nor gotten one online sooner without a leader to rush it.


- Sirian
 
War weariness:

It functions on a per-opponent basis. The game keeps track of how much you attack each particular opponent. The penalty is more (perhaps double) if attacking on their soil, and less (perhaps half) if attacking in self-defense on your soil.

This total accumulates REGARDLESS of whether or not you see the effects yet. Just that Suffrage, and police stations, increase your "allowed" total before unhappy faces start to appear. War weariness is a civ-wide function, rather like corruption under communism, it's divided evenly among all your cities on a % basis.

Yet the moment you make peace with, or eliminate, the rival you have been attacking, weariness with that civ drops to zero. If that's the only civ you've been attacking, your whole weariness evaoprates just like that.

I believe that weariness is reduced per turn during peace, something along the lines of how draft and poprush "memory" fades away. Chances are, unless you stop immediately upon sighting weariness, or else not attack much more, that the "memory" will not be entirely erased for quite some time, and if you return to war with that particular civ, your weariness immediately shoots back up to reflect whatever amount has not yet had time to fade away. In some cases, this means right back to instant massive unhappiness, which may collapse the government if even one city is allowed to go into civil disorder.

On the other hand, if you make peace with the civ you've been attacking, then turn around and attack a different civ, that civ starts at zero on the scale, and you can attack them for a while before any weariness sets in. In this regard, it can be a GOOD thing to have two or three fronts. Attack one, take some cities, get some concessions in the peace and STOP before weariness reaches high levels, let that one "cool off" and attack someone else, rotating through the opponents.

That's one more reason to save Rome. We can beat them up while waiting for weariness to fade against Russia, India, and anybody else we start mixing it up with. Democracy simply cannot stomach endless war against the same opponent. Armor blitzes may wipe out an enemy entirely before weariness reaches a point of taking the government down, but slower assaults have to be taken in chunks, and the 20 turns of peace has to be observed at least most of the time. (The penalties for betrayals, frankly, are unrealistically low, but that's a separate thing for me to be ranting about :) ).

It is my intention to remain in Democracy the rest of the game, so... if weariness is built up with low-result attacks, like ironclads bombarding cities all on their own, it will mean having to stop the war sooner. Weariness means unhappy people, which means lower score. We don't want lower score. :nono: I'll definitely growl and fuss :spank: if anybody actually lets our government collapse. :) We should not keep attacking once weariness sets in unless we can wipe out that civ before it gets too rough, and we're nowhere near that capability yet. Consider that our "variant limitation": we watch the polls, and if the people get too cranky, we stop the war -- if we can. Must... SCORE... :lol:


- Sirian
 
OMG, I cant believe that I just read this entire thread straight through. Charis, your posts definately aren't too long, all the posts had good lessons for civ 3 players, and are quite entertaining. The only thing that would make these posts any better would be more screenshots, but that would be mostly for the benefit of the readers, and not the players, so it is quite understandable why there aren't more. Sirian, CC, Charis, my hat is off to you for your discussions of not only strategy, but also of game mechanics in an open forum where many other players can benefit from your knowledge
 
Hi guys!! Pardon my recent reticence, I saw the "We got Atomic" post and let out a big woohoo in my office. My secretary happened to be walking by and gave me a very ood look :blush:

I started a reply then got sucked into a long meeting and never hit submit i guess :confused:

At to that a certain FedEx disk arriving, an in-town conference and birthday in the family, this is a crushing week, I can only hope I'm not missing my turn in one or more games!!

In any case, very glad to hear the reports. Thanks for not reversing the debacle decision by changing the research path. Now we can Hooverize :) I wish I knew the 'numbers' on how weariness works, I hope we can 'take the rubber'/coal and then stop. Greece needs to come down a notch for sure, just not sure when/how just yet :P

:hammer:
Charis

PS to shdwlord -- read the whole thread???? wow! :) that's endurance! Thanks for the feedback, there is some really good stuff here, I'm glad it's reaching a few more ears :lol:
 
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