RBD SG3 - The Builders

[Schnarrd]

Well, as well as implementing the rail system I had one other major decision that I made. On the inherited turn, Cathy demanded Printing Press. I, of course, refused (actually, I gagged on her stench, which Cathy rightly took as a refusal) and Cathy declared war. This was where the decision came. On turn one I renegotiated all of our treaties (I’m not sure if anybody but me pays attention to them!) when I came to Japan. I realized that they share a large border with Russia, and out of curiosity, asked what I would have to pay for an alliance. They asked for just ivory! I renegotiated it to ivory for an alliance plus 23 per turn. Although I did not like the idea of locking us into the conflict for twenty turns, but since industrialization is discovered soon (and universal suffrage with it) plus the fact that with Japan in the war, most of the major powers are in conflict, I made the deal (I hope this was not a product of pungent weed!). I tried to pull Greece into the war also and get another alliance with France, but both would only take the alliance for technology. I have no idea why France would not take a straight alliance (they were already at war with Russia!), but so it goes. At the end of my turn, France, Japan, and America are all at war with Russia. Some other things of note are that we are only receiving three luxuries at the moment – France tried to renegotiate our luxury trade and wanted too much for their luxuries. Also, we are one turn to industrialization, and all our major cities are on placeholders for factories (except for Boston, which had already produced all its city improvements and was cranking out a knight every other turn for most of my turn). This brings me to my last point: there are around 15 to 17 knights near our border with Rome. We are no longer selling luxuries to them (the most they were willing to pay is 12 per turn, a ridiculous amount when we are getting more than twice that from other civs), and soon we will have sufficient force to attack them. Let’s get that saltpeter!

PS: Sorry for the delay in getting this sent; I meant to play yesterday, but I fell asleep while playing – talk about an exhausting weekend!

 

[Sirian]

Just a point of order regarding alliances: it would not be in our interest for any single opponent to get overwhelmed, as their lands would just be carved up, and mostly by those closest to them. This makes everyone else stronger. That's why I only invited France to fight last time. I didn't want to punish Russia or see them weakened too far, just keep them busy a bit.

Now it may be good that all these civs are at war, as it may get ALL of them out of stronger governments. But on my original builder game, I overdid the alliances and the next thing I knew, the aggressive civ was killed off and I didn't get any of the spoils (at least not until later). I don't think we need to be scared of Russia. Let's just hope they don't get run over too quickly.

What the AI's do is send ALL of their spare units on a beeline to attack their enemies. While the Russian army is off fighting opponent A, opponent B may have a free run at their lightly defended cities, and once the production gets eat into, a civ can collapse pretty quickly. (You KNOW what kind of bonehead counterattacks they do vs players, it's the same vs one another, which is why so many civs die off when they start at it).

Ideally, I would think that an evenly matched war that drags on and on AND ON would suit us best, as war weariness climbs and the AI's develop more deep running hatreds for each other.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

Ok, you caught me. I almost never renegotiate. Would you (or anyone) care to discuss that aspect of the game some?

What to look for that suggests it needs reneg, what effect it has on attitude, etc. In other posts I keep hearing about asking for weak cities when you renegotiate peace. I thought "Renegotiate peace???" They were using that for some hairball city-defender exploit which I have no care for, but the idea you could have them give you a city to keep the peace is... uh... interesting (?)

In no game where I've tried it has a country *EVER* given in to a straight demand for any item whatsoever -- is that just a "tick them off" button with no other function? Is the 'correct' way to seek tribute to renegotiate peace?

On the war with the Russians... heh, I knew they were not through. Arrogant as all get out though, they have no means whatsoever to think they can fight us, especially in *addition* to their other battles. With that kind of alliance against them, we might be seeing the end of Russia. Speaking of spoils... are there any colony cities they have that we need to annex? Also, since we're at war for 20 turns anyway... I'ld be tempted to go plop a city right smack on top of their saltpeter.

If you have the Knights, Rome is sure looking tasty
Sirian, any comments, builder-theme-wise about the wisdom/folly of finishing off the Romans? Or do you plan to let them be as quiet vassal? Score-wise, controlling their land as early as possible is best.

If I were Russia, I would give my eyetooth to pull India into an alliance with me. If I were India I would say "no way" ;p

Charis

 

[Sirian]

The Great House of Charis has been noted to say:

On the war with the Russians... Arrogant as all get out though, they have no means whatsoever to think they can fight us.

I concur. I've had about enough of her lip.


1200AD, Scene: President Caesar's office, Rome. In walks the American Secretary of Defense. He and Caesar shake hands. Caesar nods to the burly Roman Legionaries on guard, and they exit the room, leaving the two men alone together. Caesar gestures for the American to have a seat.

"So... you've come to formally declare war? My reports say that your troops are massed at Kansas City. You'll not find Rome an easy opponent, you know. We--"

"Mr. President, if I may be so bold." The American tosses a sealed letter onto the desk.

Caesar breaks the wax seal, unfolds the single page letter from the new American president, Sirian. His brows rise as he reads. Then he sits back, idly flicking the edge of the letter as he stares into the American's eyes. "Why?"

"Mr. President, we don't like being threatened. Threatening the United States is a distinctly BAD idea."

Caesar sits back, contemplates for several minutes in silence, during which the American Secretary waits in perfect stillness. Then Caesar draws a quill from his inkwell, scawls his name onto the letter, and hands it back. The men both stand and shake hands. "Very well. You've got yourself a deal."


1200AD, London: Queen Elizabeth's Tea Room. Her Majesty, along with the English Prime Minister, sit with the American Secretary of State, sipping some Earl Grey. On the table sits a number of finely carved statuettes made of American ivory. "Simply mahvelous, Darling," says the Queen. "You've got yourself a deal."


1200AD, Paris: the Queen's private dining room. President Sirian grins as he munches on some Escargot. "Joanie, my dear. Will you show me your fur? I simply must have more of your sweet spice!"

Queen Joan d'Arc grins back and wags her finger. "Baudy humor from a stuck up American?" She laughs lightly. "For your support in our noble fight, I'll show you anything you want, Sirian."

"Anything?"

"Oui. Ah... if the price is right."


1200AD, Ports of Cincinnatti and Miami. American soldiers set sail.

"His Truth is Marching On." :soldier:


So who is this brassy President Sirian? Dr. Sirian, actually. Son of an indistrial inventor and entrepreneur, he is a physician of the first order, and won election on four promises: to strengthen the economy like it's never been strong before, to empower all adult American citizens with the right to vote, to clean up our cities and improve health care for all, and to defend the nation against the aggressions of Russia.

1200AD: Offer Caesar Right of Passage and Mutual Protection Pact for secrets of Military Tradition and a small stipend. Offer Liz ivory at market value. Offer Joanie Alliance vs Russia, Mutual Protection Pact, Right of Passage and 50-something gpt for Furs and Spices. Luxury Taxes dropped to zero, virtually every American Citizen is now gushing with joy. Four veteran riflemen set sail from Cincinnatti.

1210AD: Industrialization.

 

[Sirian]

1210AD: Factories under construction all across America. All defenders in the colonies, and all defensive units along the border with India, are upgraded to Riflemen. The treasury is officially kaput. Dr. Sirian redirects the national priority to health care and the study of Medicine. 10 knights and 2 more riflemen set sail from Miami.

1220AD: The city of Phoenix reaches size 7, and thus begins its permanent duty as a training ground for American soldiers. One unit of riflemen are drafted.

1230AD: Phoenix drafted again. First American factories are coming online. Rail network now complete in America's top seven cities.

1240AD: Phoenix. Rails completed in the Phoenix area, and shared tiles reshuffled to return all but one borrowed tile to the "Real Cities" in the area, Baltimore and New Orleans. Phoenix is now self-sufficent and full packaged, awaiting only its Bach-inspired cathedral (six content faces) next turn to overrule all the endless unhappiness that perpetual drafting would cause. Oh and by the way, sixteen American units land on Russian soil.

1250AD: The Russians in Vitebsk, defended only by spearmen, DRAFT a unit of riflemen dropping the city from size 7 to size 6. They also rushbuild a cossack (poprush under monarchy is cash based, so no whipping was done). Americans attack, capture Vitebsk and three workers, losing one knight in the process.

Note to Catherine: You don't declare war on America. That's just NOT a good idea. OK? OK then.

1250AD: Phoenix completes Cathedral, which is immediately filled with wives and children praying for their conscripted soldiers. Polls show confidence in President Sirian still riding high after the glorious American victory at Vitebsk. DC completes its factory, starts construction of a stock exchange. Medicine discovered, and it appears that DIRT is the cause of most disease! Dr. Sirian orders research into sanitation. A unit of riflemen is drafted from New Bombay.

1255: New Bombay again, and also (of course) Phoenix. Seven units of conscript riflemen, two catapults, five knights, and two veteran riflemen units, board American galleons at Miami, bound for Russia and Phase Two. Joanie's forces arrive at Vitebsk from the south (Ha! Told her I'd beat her there That was right before we stopped talking and got down to more serious communications ). The French valliantly shield American forces from the Russian counterattack. Not a single Russian unit makes it through. Go Joanie!

1260: Phoenix and New Bombay. (Start chanting this mantra). American forces cheer as, across the river from Vitebsk, French and Russian forces grind one another into the earth. Temple rushbuilt at Vitebsk. Joanie entices Ghandi, India declares war on Russia, in alliance with France.

1265: Phoenix and New Bombay. Joanie suffers some defeats. Like, ouch, that's a lot of knights dying off. If Russia is gettin any, it's out of visual range of American spectators in Vitebsk. Road through the forest west of Vitebsk completed by our (Russian and French) workers.

1270: Phoenix and New Bombay. New Bombay completes its Cathedral, just in time to avoid some major mojo unhappiness from all the drafting. Shared tiles now rearranged to give this former Indian city its minimum necessary to feed a size 7, and the rest given back to the larger American cities next door. Indian Americans at New Bombay are now in competition with Phoenix to see whose soldiers are the most elite, the most brave, the most skilled. All eleven units of American knights in Russia mobilize along the newly constructed road, heading toward Kuibyshev. Walls rushbuilt at Vitebsk. Joanie moves more knights into the area, a whole fresh batch. Russians are beaten back. First American Ironclad rolls off the assembly line in Buffalo, sets sail to protect the American fleet.

1275AD: OMG! Joanie captured a Russian town! Russia manages to sneak one unit of conscript rifles past Joanie and across the Vitebsk River, marching them up to the city gates, but Americans hold their fire "waiting until you can see the whites of their eyes". Joanie's forces go into a rage and throw everything they have at this unit, losing TWO knights and then attacking with a knight that had just one hit point left! AND IT WINS! She is just determined to prove her valor, I tell you! Universal Suffrage achieved in America! Railroad net completed. (Yes, completed. All of it. Well... at least on the mainland). First American Coal Plant goes online in Boston, which can now crank almost 80 shields per turn. (Enough to build knights in one turn? Possibly, didn't check.) Russians, defending by pikes, draft a unit of riflemen at Kui, dropping that city to size 6 also. American attack at Kuibyshev succeeds! Two knights lost in the combat. Victory comes just in time to open the docks to American ships, which bring 16 units of reinforcements into the garrison.

Having achieved his Four Goals, President Sirian retires from office with an incredible 88% approval rating. He was last seen sipping champaigne with Queen Joanie on the French Riviera. :love2: The tabloids are just going wild with the rumors, enamored as they are with French and Indian royalty.

Oh, and by the way... Phoenix and New Bombay.

 

[Sirian]

Bless you, whoever built those other three ships on our east coast (after I built the first one).


So why did I promise Rome 20 turns of peace? That's simple, for two reasons.

1) For all that we had, we did not have the kind of force to take more than a couple of cities. We could have continued to build more horsies, but... that would mean delaying factories. I was NOT going to do that. No way, no how. So... it came down to a choice of attacking a couple of Roman cities, then suing for peace, or... go make Cathy pay for her insolence.

2) It's a better strategy anyway. Think of this scenerio. You build two settlers half a dozen rounds apart. You want to settle two city locations, one six squares further away. Your rivals have an interest in the area, too. So what do you do? You can either settle the closer spot first, thus ensuring a strong position there, but possibly losing the second position altogether, or at least being MUCH weaker on the frontier. Or... you can bypass the easy option to stretch your reach as far as you can do so while still being strong enough to make it stick. That's really the key: a gambit is only a gambit when there's significant risk involved.

With four galleons, I could move 16 troops. With 15 knights on hand, I could take 10 of them and be sure to win at least ONE city, which six vet rifles parked ought to be able to hold out long enough for reinforcements no matter how bad bad gets. And if not needed, the reinforcement could take a second city.

Rome is not a "second front" unless and until we choose for it to be. They aren't going to attack us unless we dis them. Once we have tanks, we can literally roll over them in a few turns anyway. Besides, Russia is where the action's at. The other AI's are going to carve her up (my decision was vindicated along about turn 3 of my go, when I saw India mobilizing its entire army toward France... I knew they were going to jump in on the dogpile). Russia is already weak from lots of war. They have been softened up by France and Japan. What better time to jump in there and grab some of the pie, after they've blunted the worst of Russia's counterpunches?

Rome is a piddly amount of land. Russia, and the huge swamp No Mans' land with all those piddly colonies, represents a much bigger pie to sink our teeth into, and we now have a SECURE port and foothold. Just keep sending more units, and DON'T take any risks. This is not a situation where stretching to get one more city is a good idea. We need to be able to fend off a major stack of Russian counterattack at any point, so play defensively over there, and only go for another city when you have overwhelming force in place both for the assault and the garrison. Cleaning up cities recently recaptured by Russia after someone else took it from them is a grand opportunity to take over cities that are very lightly defended. I'd say we need about fifteen units PER city over there, for the time being. That's five solid garrison, five flexible garrison, and five expendables. Just don't expend them lightly.


So why pay through the nose to Joanie for luxuries? Our fourth and fifth luxury, enough to make everyone in our sixe 12 cities perfectly happy (except in ones with no cathedral and no market).

As costly as 50-ish gpt sounds, we were paying 120 gpt to run lux at 10%. With Carbon's market crusade, now almost every city has a market, so even just 5 lux = full happiness. Joanie being in Monarchy, the 50gpt we're giving her is NOT a threat to put her ahead in the tech race, or I wouldn't have done it.

Our Xerox Friend should be happy to note that I allowed markets to finish in some towns before swapping to factory.

Rome would have been an easy choice, perhaps, but we're at 1275AD, the game won't end until 2050, or domination, or conquest, so... "I urge you to think long term". It just seemed wisest to me to extend our reach, as there is a LOT more game to play here. One might almost say, "Now the preparation is over, and the game begins." It's not stretching your neck when you move decisively, with lots of units, and don't need to rely on good luck to succeed. In Russia, we should be able to grab more land without having to be the point man on the attack. At least we have a stage for future operations in the region.


Getting two conscripts per turn, for the rest of the game (Phoenix and New Bombay) ought to help with the heavy garrison load we'll need to run. One note: don't be afraid to use these troops, they're expendables -- and they promote quickly. Just don't waste them outright, since taking losses is just as much a factor to add to war weariness as is attacking the enemy on their home soil. There's no war weariness yet, despite decades of war with Russia and now some offensive action. That's one more reason war with Rome was a bad idea at this juncture. We'd surely have built up war weariness too soon, and then either had to slow research (ACK! Don't do that please!) or back off at the first chance. With better tech and full industrial production, we can sweep them away completely at a later date.

We're committed to war with Russia and Peace with Rome, France and England through at least Charis's turn. Carbon can re-evaluate the alliances when he goes to bat.

One more thing: Coal plants. Don't build em, except maybe in a couple cities. Ones that might build wonders, or have finished all their infrastructure and are solely cranking troops, and could shave a turn off the production cycle with a coal plant. Boston should be the site for ToE and Hoover, I think, or at least Hoover.

Charis, your turn ought to be entertaining.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

Charis: We've got one turn in at 80% on Electricity. So whatever you do with the rate, don't swap off our progress thinking we had nothing invested there yet. Good luck!

 

[Charis]

Excellent!!

I'm gonna have fun this turn!!! (I have a lot of fun on these turns, I hope everyone else has that feeling, that no one is missing out on the chance for glorious conquest!)

As I started reading the story it dawned on me... this is Sirian's turn??? Oh man, I wouldn't want to be a Russian right now! I was reading a post on Apolyton called the "Rogue State Strategy", which would have suggested you do precisely what you did. Hmmm.... lemme find the link, it's a good read:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=40670

In a nutshell, at the point where countries have cut over to Democracy and are starting to pull ahead of you in tech while you're in Republic, pick one of the larger and most powerful foes on your map and get the WHOLE WORLD to go to war against them. After a long battle they get wiped out, the world goes into anarchy or communism due to major weariness, you don't fight a whole lot yourself except to snag a small bit of the pie, build Suffrage and get a tech-production gain. By picking a tough big foe the others are sure to get a good beating too, which helps.

It seems good sense overall that given two foes you want to not just hurt but take out, you go for the stronger first. Lest you weaken yourself in going for the low hanging fruit and find the other has in the mean time grow stronger. Plus.... **NO ONE** else is going after Rome. They would have to come through us to succeed. In other words, that territory is 100% ours, just Rome doesn't know it yet. Russia, otoh, any gains there are flat out new lands, more area to BUILD on that did not at first belong to us (like the colonies).

Just a scant few turns ago, I paved the way for war in Russia, built the ship and (cough) settlers and left it for others to persue that option. If there's one prediction or goal I would make for this upcoming turn, if the Russians have that saltpeter now, we WILL have it come the end of the Charis turn.

I've never used conscription in my games. (Sorta like that renegotiation stuff, things tend to be either mastered or never-used, little in between) This seems like a real good use (wow, a conscription factory, love it, and on "my converts" in New Bombay!) It also overcomes what would otherwise be HUGE FEAR, leaving 6,10, 15 units on garrison on a freshly conquered city. My fear of it flipping and losing, gasp, a dozen riflemen, would make me ill. Losing 12 turns of New Bombay production? No loss!

If it's not doing a wonder or "good thing" right now, I would put our future Hoover builder on coal factory before it comes time to build it. Once Hoover is completed, sell it again, but the benefit of getting it 10ish turns early continent wide are worth it.

Charis

 

[Charis]

I'll start by two bottom line items...
1) Russia has no more white powder
2) You'll either love or hate a fiscal maneuver the silly Deacon pulled on his last turn. Many details below...

--

The aged Deacon came back from a looooong stay at a monastery for prayer
and meditation. When he came back, he was simply astounded at the success of
the great leaders before him. Cleveland! Dulles! Laguardia? Harper's Ferry?
Deacon's Beacon??? You were all so small when I saw you last, now look at you!
46 shields from Seatle? 37 from Baltimore?? Deacon Charis wept for joy.
"So, things are well, we are at peace, no?" "No, Reverend " 8-o
"You see... the atheists from Russia have taken hostage a missionary by
the name of Peter. A good man, a true pillar of faith. They nicknamed him
"Salt" in fact. Poor, poor, Saltpeter. He's there now, in the heart of
Russia, being pressed to serve evil.

The Deacon's heart fell. He knew that no matter what else happened, even
if the shores of the homeland themselves crumbled into ruin, Salt Peter would
be freed!!! His military advisor Deacon Siri fainted on hearing these reckless
words. Hear now the rest of the story...

His review: Factories, hospital, universities, courthouses... most excellent
choices for a builder nation. It was learned that . Vitebsk had no rebels
visible in the city, but the Deacon saw great spiritual evil at work. He
decided to not let the workers touch the tools, instead dialoging with Russian
scientists. He did not expect any real production from the city, but he would
NOT lose the beach head, not on HIS shift! He looked forward to learning of
Electricity, but thought +150 gold per turn and 5 turns a great choice. As
all knew, the Deacon needed some spending money for his pet projects. Previous
leaders could try to wreck the treasury, but he would find a way...

His last preparatory move was to call an old friend in San Diego...

1275 AD (0) - "The USS what??? OH! Yes, yes, the USS Charis. My goodness it
hasn't seen the sea in a few hundred years, but yessir, it's in great shape,
just in dry dock. Huh? You want it to go WHERE???? Oh my, by your command, sir!"
"Not a problem sir, my pleasure. The courthouse? A rush order?? Thanks sir!!! You
really didn't need to do that, but thank you! Yes, we'll use it to protect the
colonies, aye!"

1280 AD (1) - Russians take back Bryansk but are otherwise very quiet.
Pollution strikes New York. (Is that our first bout?!) Atlanta starts a
hospital and expects to finish in 6 turns. (The Deacon is still in amazement
at these new production rates!)

"Phoenix and New Bombay". The historians and advisors have the Deacon practice
this phrase until he is proficient at it. On Knights this round: SF, . Buffalo
shifts to Knight duty at a zero-waste 2 turns a pop, and Deacon Beacon, home
port of the glorious USS Charis, starts to churn out endless ironclads.

"I just don't understand corruption," says the Deacon as he sakes his head.
"Ya lose 10 of 14 shields in San Diego, but all 19 of 20 shields in Albequerque,
almost an identical distance from our capitol. It makes no sense..."
Post-courthouse San Diego can give 6 shields per turn, not uber, but useful.
Someday it dreams of a factory, but for now, an aqeuduct.

Just 4 workers to clear pollution in one turn with industrious?! Woo!
First battle of the turn, Knight on Cossack we win a come-from-behind struggle
with 1hp left. Ouch!

"How's that harbor coming in Vitebsk?" "Great sir, it'll be done in 59 years."
"Hmmm, I need it done today!" "Ok sir" (mumbles something about deficit
spending and saunters off)

A fascinating battle on the edge of binocular range outside New Lahore.
The Cossacks ignore our monster stack heading East and go for a lone French
Longbowman. Another goes after New Lahore and dies. Hmmmmm.... If Lahore
should fall to Russia and we capture it from them, we gain a new coal source!!

1285 AD (2) - New York with 40 shield production is chosen as another Knight
factory. Philly Cheese steak spills in the streets and causes a pollution
mess. The Deacon's mumbling advisor starts Banks in Pittsburgh, Harper's Ferry
and Miami knowing they'll be needing given this guy's spending rate!

1290 AD (3) - New Lahore DOES fall! Wow. Wall Street is completed! Now the
mumbling advisor is REALLY giving Deacon what-for about his spending!
DC starts a hospital, Boston finishes hers, and can kick out 1 knight/turn!
Our first Ironclad battle... and it gets mauled by the Russian Galleon.
Deacon writhes in pain at this! "Surely this pitiful excuse for a boat
did not come from The BEACON!" We start to play science slider ping pong
to make the most of Wall Street. (Push way back one round, up the next.
Same total to science, same tech rate, more gold from interest)
The cossacks go for more attacks, and we win one, lose one.

1295 AD (4) - Seatle goes for a Coal plant, to hit 70/turn for Knight popping.
The people request Battlefield Medicine. (A splendid idea, that gets going in Washington shortly)

What to do with all the workers not on pollution? I know, let's
start a "Neighborhood Watch Program". Russia won't be attacking Deacon's Beacon anytime soon!!

 

[Charis]

1300 AD (5) - The French capture New Lahore! (Bummer... yet it may fall again)
The INSOLENT Greeks get all uppity as we step one foot on their border line
as we try to get the Russians off their land. The Deacon burns with suspicion
and feels an evil present in Alexander. He gets Deacon's vote as next power
that will need some chopping down to size after Russia is wounded.
An elite cossack in the jungle with 1hp is not allowed to escape. A second
hurt one guarding a white powder is also slain. "Uh, sir, you need some
white powder?" "WHAT?! Japan AND England both have it for trade?? I only
need some for a few turns. OMG what a difference it would have made at the
start of my reign in barracked cities! Our Knights are no match for the
Cossacks!" England wants it for Democracy and Steam Power. Next 8-\
Japan just wants Free Artistry and we already have Shakespeare?! Done!
Without shifting off ANY real 'building' plans ongoing, we start to produce
eight cavs and two cannon (and one Privateer ;p) In looking at the cities
Deacon also rushes Las Vegas Courthouse and Stables, and to finally bring
some culture to the Russian homeland, a Temple in Vitebsk.

1305 AD (6) - Hrrrrmf. Just as we start to close on Maikop, suspected home
of SaltPeter, the Japanese take it over! (And New Lahore is looking more secure
for the French. We need some settlers here asap!) Las Vegas now produces
5 shields instead of 2 with the courthouse. 18 Cats are upgraded to Cannons.
Our Knights recover Salt Peter!! Well, they find where he is held, and they
pillage the site. It's not clear whether they can get him safely back home
yet, but the Russian supply is no more! Uhh.... urg.... wait!! The *REAL*
Salt Peter is not here, but in Bryansk!!!! It's RIGHT NEXT to our war patrol!

Who let dogs out... Deacon did!! The dogs of war (or so their foes did call
them) let loose like rapid hounds after the city! Looking at geographical
surveys shows Japan source under Fukushima.

Oh my!! What's that LOOSE in the field, unprotected?? A Russian...
Great Leader!! The dogs POUNCE, just upgraded in time enough to have the
speed to do it, just before the GL enters Bryansk! Another Knight who got
lost found himself on a Riga irrigated flood plain wheat square, which he
thrashes so thouroughly with his hooves the place is pillaged. Alas, the
poor knight never saw the Cossack coming that would end his life that eve

The war between turns is amazing to watch. The Russians and French battle
so closely that both sides are hurt very bad. The Russians are winding
down though... they try to retake Maikop with two conscript riflemen and
a cossack with 1 hp. Japan repels them. And rather than beef up Bryansk
(their last saltpeter source) they defend Batum, in quite a battle with
the French. Meanwhile, the Romans shift a Longbown and Pikeman around on
the border ;p Ok, ok, so they won't be declaring war anytime soon.

1310 AD (7) - The USS Charis enters the national waters around the Russian
port of Novgorod. Sheer unadulterated terror is struck into the citizens
of Nogo! The massive whale trade there is put to a halt, and the people
start to cry, starve, and gnash their teeth! The USS Charis cries out,
"Who wants some??? Come get some!" taunting them to build a vessel of
war to send against it! Feeling more secure with the USS Charis back in
action, the Galleon mothballed in San Diego is sent to St.Louis to stock
up on Riflemen, Cavalry and Cannon to supply the colonies! (Due in 1360)

Washington starts to research Battlefield Medicine (10 turns). Boston
cranks out Cav at 1/turn while we have a SP source.

We visit Joanie who winks at Deacon and says something about spicey furs.
The Deacon is appalled and says that he'll get everything he needs out of
Catherine in 3 turns and then he'll have no need for Joan. The idea of
Deacon rebuffing her and saying "Catherine can give me all I want" drives
her to the very brink of insanity. Deacon leaves the meeting very confused.


A stellar success taking Bryansk! It grows from size 1 to 2 last turn, (or
at least I thought it was size 1 before) and we defeat one conscript and one
regular rifleman with two cavs, both down to 1hp. We had four more behind
that stack and I thought I might need every one. Barracks and granary
are intact. And the road to that harbor that Deacon 'madly' rushed means
all luxuries go in and the saltpeter goes home! "Salt Peter is coming
home boys!!!"

Batun may fall to the French next round. If not, Deacon's troops are swarmed
outside the city and will take it. That is that the last one he intends to
go for, anticipating peace soon. (For us, let the others duke it out, we've
got infrastructure to BUILD!) He orders no new military unit production
started on his turn (although ones in progress will finish)

1315 AD (8) - Ha! The French and Russians beat themselves just silly with
casualties on both sides. The French kill one defender but cannot take
Batum. The move a stack now of about 5 or 6 adjacent. By the end of the
turn that city will not be the Russians to take!

NY is one of the few to start a coal plant, and Boston starts the only
'placeholder' that takes more than 2 turns- the Palace in 13. TOE will
available before that. Chicago takes a few turns to catch up on basics
like a Library and a Bank. It's itching for another wonder though!

Oh my!! Everyone wants a peace of the pie! Rome (!) declares war on
the Russians (2 turns also left on their MPP)

We take a shot with an 'expendable' conscript rifles and go after a Cossack
on low ground with 1hp. Now a regular In Bryansk, we rush a temple.

Shoot, not just two defenders in Batum, but three. An 3hp cav from Bryansk
gallops up but fails, wounding the last defender. Can the Rifleman once
again show offensive prowess? Hahaha! He does! The regular becomes a vet!
(I don't think I would have tried that vs a size 7 city, but it was size 6)
An Ironclad fails to defeat a frigate-caravel pair outside Vitebsk.
Deacon again wails for the glory days of the USSC.

1320 AD (9) - Russia does manage to pull out some more Cossacks. Two come
at Batum and defeat two of our defenders. Then on the French turn they
lash back with fury and go after those Cossacks!
At the "ambush" site of the trick-saltpeter outside Mayuik our knight
defending the site dies. (Alas, too bad he couldn't have been in a
barracks for the great upgrade). JUST one turn before our riflemen arrive
next to the site.

The resistance at Batum crumbles as they starve.

Deacon checks all mainland cities for factories and cathedrals. Almost all
have both, although he does need to start a half-dozen cathedrals. These
are (not surprisingly seen on the happiness screen as sad face cities)

The approach of the now infamous "Deacon Infantry Regiment"
scares the Cossack off the white dust! The rifle and a worker step up
planning to found a colony for America! Eep, another Cossack, is this an
ambush??!

Just outside Kuibyshev a Russian ship brings reinforcements!
What are they? Musketman, Spearman and Cossack. Our cav retreats on (but
hurts) the Musketman, and a second one kills the Cossack, becoming elite.
Another cav moves up to finish the Musketman and succeeds. We sent a
conscript to train on the spearman and indeed he does. Training how NOT
to shoot (he dies). A second one wins, but stays a conscript.

Take a look at the screenshot below. We have, uh, just a FEW units
above Miami waiting to cross the channel (24). Have been shuttling them
across furiously with four ships but our production outpaces them.
If war is ongoing make another ship or two, if not, go for peace soon.

Perhaps it's time to step down?

1325 AD (10) - OH MY!! We don't like what we see between turns here!!
(Or do we?)

(Savefile attached here, but see next for screenshot and final turn action)

 

[Charis]

... Russia and Greece sign a military pact against.... Rome!!

Rome *immediately* comes knocking on our door. His words are too funny...

"Deacon, Rome is having trouble against the evil Greeks. Let us punish
them together!" Gosh... tough call... can I pass this on to our next in line?
(Hits 'escape', I'm sure they would take it if offered by us again)

- It cracks me up to see Legionarres and Archers racing South to 'fight'
Alas, it's less funny when 6 end their turn just outside Kansas City.
I send in a few troops just to be sure.

The only nice thing in this in-between turn is that Japan steps up and
ambushes the ambushers! They strike dead the Cossacks at our white-powder
colony. Likewise the French and Russians wipe each other out just outside
'our' new city, Batum!

- We found "Coaltown" right next to coal and two steps from New Lahore.
(Rush a temple!)

- We just finished Scientific Method, eligible for the pre-started wonder in
Boston, and... the treasury will be over 1000, making full use of Wall Street!
Who says the Deacon is fiscally irresponsible?!

That means we just chose the new research tech. I picked Espionage *so that*
it would not be given to us by the TOE. Actually, TOE is due in 6 turns
in Boston. I've set research slider on large bonus cash (50% sci) to make
it in 5 turns. Then pick Espionage, and our two 'free' ones would be from
The Corporation, Replaceable Parts and Atomic Theory (If you can instead
trade for one or the other, Communism/Espio you could research the Corporation
in 5 turns and get open up Steel and Refining as a free choice.) (I think
everyone knows TOE gives the two cheapest techs as its prize, unlike Civ2)
Heck if we get Communism spread it around and home they switch to it!

- Keep an eye on captured Russian cities. I've been keeping them on
100% tax collector to avoid flipping.

- Hmmm.... Greece... Rome... tech.... I go visit Alex. We've got an MPP with
Rome but it won't "kick in" until Greece actually attacks them, but it
WILL happen. Greece has Communism. Can we offer gpt for Communism
Why yes... cough... at a mere 222 gpt/turn. (They actually believe we would
pay that?? Well, sheesh, that is less than our surplus this turn)
Hmmm... can't hurt? Or can it? The Deacon says "It's payback time for your
insolence at the start of my reign, Alexander!" Deal is done.

- With no saltpeter supply, will we see the Russians lose Cossacks soon?
What would replace them? Rifle on offense, or longbowmen?

Well the deal adds a new wrinkle. We now have Communism (consider selling to all)
and will complete Espionage before TOE is done in Boston. Next research (the
cheaper tech) and we'll right after get Replaceable Parts (woo) and the
precursor to Electronics, Atomic Theory. You can either i) continue to pay
Greece for a while until he attacks Rome (if he does), ii) pull out and
give Rome a city where Greece will attack to speed that (ew), or iii) sign
an Alliance vs Greece with the Romans. The latter two will end the 222 gpt deal.
If in response he gets mad, too bad. If I were Alex I would ask Liz or Toku to
join me. If they get sneaky and do that, outsneak them! Sign an MPP with whoever
he buddied up to, and move a colony worker next to Apolyton. Greek attacks
us before we attack them and their new buddy turns on them. Either that or I'm
insane and this level of diplomacy is beyond me ;p

Oh, please do rush the temple in Coaltown NEXT TURN (once 1 shield done).
New Lahore has zero culture, and if we get our temple first, the boundary
WILL move and the coal is ours.

Good luck, Carbon, you've really got your hands full,
Charis

 

[Sirian]

Entertaining read some hilarious moments.

Conscript "training" is indeed a dangerous business.


Congrats on the military excitement. I wasn't kidding when I said that France and Russia were really going at it.

Did something go wrong with your screenshots? And a double post? Maybe you can edit that and sort it all out for us.

As for 222gpt, yikes. You know, there isn't a prayer in Heck that we'll get Atomic Theory theory for free. It will just roll up through the Combustion line instead. So... maybe we'll get Rep Parts and Corp or maybe Corp and Refining. Not bad, but we do have some interest in getting to both Infantry and Hoover Dam sooner rather than later. I understand the urge to clean up those lower techs... but what's the rush with ToE at all? The AI's are several techs away from starting it, and don't have any cities that could match Boston. What I'd probably have done is hold out on ToE until the AI's all had communism and I could buy it off them at obsolete prices, or better yet, trade someone a luxury for it.

Now if we had a surefire way to know that Greece was GOING TO declare war on us, then the 222gpt deal would be hustling the hustler. I hope it breaks that way, but you said "alliance vs Rome", right? Not MPP. So... just what is leading you to presume that Alex is about to hang himself? Did I miss something?

If they happen to attack Rome before we get out of our MPP with Rome, our reputation is blackened toast. The AI's will check their foreign advisor and listen to him say, "Lincoln is a known liar and cheat. He has bretrayed our friends, the Greeks." We have that problem already in RBD5: our rep there is shot. War was declared by us against somebody (India? Has to be) with whom we still had active agreements. Not good. MUST cancel all agreements first or suffer a black eye and stingy or even nonexistant deals thereafter. No problem for a civ on the total war path, but it cuts short or eliminates options for the diplomat and merchant, and I personally don't like it just on style. I have this thing about beating them honorably, rather than just beating them any way available. I've been known to compromise an agreement now and then, but the need has to be pretty high. (I also stay out of MPP's for this reason, unless confident it won't lead to deal breaking).

Our rep here is still good. I hope your gambit works out to keep it that way, as we have a long long time yet to go to be blackening our rep over one tech. The first thing that goes is willingness to enter into RoP's, and right behind it is willingness to engage in gpt deals. AI's would start demanding hard cash up front, which is a problem for us with just 3 lux on hand at the moment.

Anyway, good job with your progress, even if you did sneak a little there with that Communism deal. But... you know, if they don't declare war on us, we're stuck paying 222gpt for 20 turns, or else openly cheat them by declaring war to cancel the deal, which I would not be in favor of doing. That's perhaps 4500 gold for a tech. I hope it's not as bad as it sounded over here, and that it works out for us.

On the bright side, losing some tech edge doesn't directly affect our score in a negative way. Might make more military action tougher, or put us under threat of nukes a wee bit sooner, but even if it goes badly, it shouldn't be any kind of threat to our overall goals.

As for "oh its only Free Artistry", the AI's (for once) skipped all the optional wonder and democracy techs and beelined to industrial age. Those "optional" techs represented a third of our tech lead. If you gave it to Japan as the second civ on the planet to get the tech, just for saltpeter to get some cavalry going, I'd say you overpaid. What is up with folks evaluating wonder techs to be throwaway? They might be little less painful to trade away because they're less useful, but they still represent as much of a commodity as anything else in the game.

Good job managing the treasury, though. I'm quite pleased to hear that you're handing off with full 50 gpt interest rolling in.


Carbon, good luck on your reign. :soldier:


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

Tnx for catching the post problem, I edited out the duplicate text...

> As for 222gpt, yikes. You know, there isn't a prayer in Heck that
> we'll get Atomic Theory theory for free. It will just roll up
> through the Combustion line instead. So... maybe we'll get Rep
> Parts and Corp or maybe Corp and Refining.

No, Atomic Power is assured with the action taken. It will NOT give you a tech you're working on. With Communism learned, and Espionage being learned the turn before TOE (a key point) we start The Corporation. The only two choices available for our bonus two are then Replacement Parts and Atomic Theory. We then crank up Science to finish corp and have Electronics 4 turns later. Then Hoover in quick order after that. With Hydro Plants for our whole world (one big continent) we're turned a 'good' lead into an absolute blowout, we-can't-be-stopped lead!
And we get Artillery and Infantry to boot!

The timing as far as why rush is that the 6-10+ turns gained are turns with Hydro plants and Infantry and push us that further ahead. Having those two techs instead of at the Commun/Espio level is big.

> Now if we had a surefire way to know that Greece was GOING
> TO declare war on us, then the 222gpt deal would be hustling
> the hustler. I hope it breaks that way, but you said "alliance vs
> Rome", right? Not MPP. So... just what is leading you to
> presume that Alex is about to hang himself? Did I miss
> something?

Hmmm... now you've got me wondering. I know at some point we got MPP with Rome (or did I misremember and that was alliance, oh shoot, may have been alliance). In any case the way I was reading it was that an MPP or alliance cascade would cause us to auto-declare war on Greece for an action THEY took. I'm now wondering if that if fuzziness... nay, weed??!

> If they happen to attack Rome before we get out of our MPP
> with Rome, our reputation is blackened toast. The AI's will
> check their foreign advisor and listen to him say, "Lincoln is a
> known liar and cheat.

Uh... drats Rest assured my intent was NOT to let our rep get tarnished, thinking that since there would be no 'chosen' declaration of war vs Greece but they would start it and we would get drawn in, it would not tarnish our rep. If you're correct, that's a rule-misunderstanding mistake on my part and that I'll have to bone up on to not mess up again.

> I have this thing about beating them honorably, rather than
> just beating them any way available. I've been known to
> compromise an agreement now and then, but the need has to
> be pretty high. (I also stay out of MPP's for this reason, unless
> confident it won't lead to deal breaking).

I must not understand the reputation implications of MPP quite right then. I would have thought that "I have MPP with xyz, so be aware, Greece, that any attack on them is an attack on us, and will be treated as a declaration of war on us" (ie, they were the ones breaking rep). Also, I only went forward with the payment thinking, it's steep, rather steep actually, but really not out of line with the gain if someone said "No! That's not right!". A tech at this stage of the game costs about 2000 gold (1K, 3K, not sure, but that ballpark). A cost of 4K then is like trading two techs for one, but again, the *production* advantage in one tech quicker to hydro and with Infantry now in hand, is huge. Also, our "cash gain per round" was +250/turn, and it seemed giving up the 'excess' cash for hydro/infantry wasn't a bad fiscal move.
Still, if I knew then it would end up blackening our rep for something besides and explicit "we declare war against you" button push, I wouldn't have chosen it.

> The first thing that goes is willingness to enter into RoP's, and
> right behind it is willingness to engage in gpt deals. AI's would
> start demanding hard cash up front, which is a problem for us
> with just 3 lux on hand at the moment.

Our rep, alas, is/was spotless at the moment then, for I was truly shocked to see them accept 222/turn as payment.

Whoever's next is going to have to live with the war consequences if things go south, and my bad for that. But I would ask that he be SURE to finish Espionage before TOE arrives and start The Corporation as our next research, or all this is strictly for naught.

A hypothetical question. Let's say that with 222 gpt in a trade for tech you discover your rep will be toast due to an ally's actions. Is there a way to renegotiate? It would be not cheap but painful, but could you offer like Democracy, 700 gold (and if needed another tech, but ouch if that's needed)? If instead of "renegotiate" you did a new deal and ended up getting 230 gpt from them would it show up as a net 8? Probably not I'm thinking (definitely not if different durations, but maybe not even if durations are the same)

> As for "oh its only Free Artistry", the AI's (for once) skipped all
> the optional wonder and democracy techs and beelined to
> industrial age. Those "optional" techs represented a third of
> our tech lead. If you gave it to Japan as the second civ on the
> planet to get the tech, just for saltpeter to get some cavalry
> going, I'd say you overpaid. What is up with folks evaluating
> wonder techs to be throwaway? They might be little less
> painful to trade away because they're less useful, but they still
> represent as much of a commodity as anything else in the game.

I've read your discussions on why you can blow a tech lead with 'optional' techs just as easy as 'key techs' since AI's need EVERY tech, and it's a point well taken. As far as "only free artistry" I meant that it did not put us in jeopardy to lose a tech. Some folks get that wrong, giving up say Democracy when they just start building Shakespeare, then being surprised to lose Shakespeare down the line. Well, the AI didn't have to research democracy and got FreeArtistry quicker. But without the potential loss of a wonder, what I mean is that you give up a tech with no *convertible* benefit for one which has great convertible benefit. Ie for those research turns, they get zip out of FA but we get Hydro out of Atomic. (Another more common example would be trading "Economics" when Smiths was already done for Nationalism. You get an immediate convertible advantage) A convertible advantage is one which lets you push even further ahead immediately.

I did want Saltpeter, but as much or more wanted to deny our enemy saltpeter and coal. Before my turn started I would probably have agreed that Cavalry were a luxury, not really needed. But... after a few rounds of combat, watching the French go toe-to-toe with Cossacks and seeing Knights get mauled on defense, and lose by a hair on offense, I knew I could not reach my objectives without Cavalry, and now. As soon as I got my hands on them (thanks in part to the barracks in the captured city), our battles went decisive. Simply put, we now have Bryansk and Batum, and have taken all the Russian saltpeter supply, killing their Cossack production, due to getting Miltradition right then. (I'm utterly convinced of the benefit of this, although if others see it different, that's fine) Er.... if Shakespeare's hasn't been built yet and I traded away Free Artistry however, I'll take a a little paddling

> Carbon, good luck on your reign.
I hope he's either a really good diplomat or a really good soldier. Can't wait to see how it turns out

The worst that could happen would be for England and Japan to both join forces with Russia and Greece. If we could instead pull England into our camp, we won't have a war but an ally on the colony side. If war does break out with Greece, Apolyton should be captured for a lock on the northern island for our colony. Oh, and if possible allow that ship incoming to St Louis to take back a few goodies to the colonies.

Charis

 

[Charis]

Hey guys, I find my posts getting longer and longer.
Am I rambling on, spouting far too many details? Seeming too bossy? Making it real easy to lose key 'todo' items with the sheer volume of words? Or are these reports helpful? Their length is due mostly due to the very very intense nature of the current turns.

Let me know so I can adjust!
Charis

(If any lurkers have comments, feel free to chime in too. If I get none I'll assume they're waaaaaaay too long and we've lost readers :crazyeyes: )

 

[Arathorn]

Charis, I personally enjoy reading the ins and outs of the game -- your thoughts and such. The USS Charis comments and such add some spice to the reading, which I quite enjoy. I'd say keep at it.

I like the strategy discussions, too. I find myself agreeing with different people on different occasions, occasionally shaking my head at one person's strategy, finding my jaw drop with the amount of micromanagement others do, etc. It's all good.

But I will say I find the Deacon fiscally irresponsible -- just because I can!!!

Arathorn

P.S. My take on the whole MPP thing is that YOU are going to be the ones declaring war, thus you'll take the reputation hit. Just my guess, as I'm not really sure, preferring to avoid MPPs whenever possible.

 

[Sirian]

No, Atomic Power is assured with the action taken. It will NOT give you a tech you're working on.

What leads you to believe this?

I thought of this one, too. I thought it I would be clever, and have it give me both Atomic and Electronics, as I had Rep Parts and Communism and Espionage. I was two turns (out of four) into researching Corporation when ToE was constructed. It gave me Corporation and Refining.

Now this is the only example I have, but having tried this exact same theory and watching the game bust it like that, I haven't felt compelled to try again.

So... unless you have anecdotal experience trying this move and having had it work for you, in which case there might be some wildcards in there, the premise on which your whole move here was based is faulty. Because I have definitely seen ToE hand out a tech I'd halfway completed researching, because it was the cheapest left on the board.

I think the only way to get Atomic Theory from ToE is to have researched every last possible tech on the other branch, possibly including even flight. Atomic Theory would be WORTH two techs, its cost is simply huge and so is Electronics. Nearly double what it takes for Espionage, I believe. But... I'm sure you'll agree, if it hands us a partial Corporation, plus Rep Parts or Refining, that we can pronounce it as a case of akin to "oh I didn't know you could irrigate cattle under despotism to get more than two food" -- not faulty thinking at all, just faulty presumptions.

It's done now. Either way, let ToE finish, and we'll see what happens.


As for keeping a city on all specialists, that's not it. Firaxis programmers posted info about flipping at Apolyton. There are two main factors: foreign nationals in the city (someone else's citizens) and border pressure with some other civ's borders infringing on the city's natural 21 tile radius. If no pressure and no foreign nationals, then ZERO chance of flip.

If there is some chance, it is magnified by relative ratio of distance to each applicable capital city, ratio of total cultural value for each rival, heavy emphasis on "past cultural history" if another civ has possessed the city at a prior point (thus Jaffa's WISE move to raze India's capital in RBD5 -- we'd NEVER have held that for long without a massive garrison) -- after all this is calculated, there's a straight subtraction for each unit on garrison (not counting artillery and noncombatants). Finally, the chance is HALVED if the city is in WLTKD, and DOUBLED if the city is in civil disorder, so one must always be careful with that. Note that a city with all specialists never goes into disorder, so that helps explain why when I starve a captured city, I just convert them all to taxmen until its down to size 1.

Starvation reduces the number of foreign nationals down to ONE, which can't be eliminated. Then regrowing assures all new citizens are your own nationality, and perfectly safe. In fact, you WANT the city to grow to at least size 3, as once the foreign nationals are outnumbered, they experience cultural pressure and will convert to your nationality once that pressure overcomes their history. The longer the history, the more pressure it takes, so an ancient city captured may never lose that one foreign national left in it, or it may take a while.

You're actually hurting us by leaving the cities at size 1. We DO NOT want to leave them full of Russians, but once it's down to 1, we want to grow our own people there asap, the sooner to convert that last Russian into an American. Make sense?

Now that I know what factors contribute to flipping, I'm better armed to deal with preventing it. Apparently, courthouses only protect against Propaganda through Espionage.


The game is silly, IMO, to promote starvation as the only good solution to cultural problems. That's unrealistic, as in real life it would severely blacken the culture, rep, etc, of any such nation doing it. But... what is a player to do? The game design is at fault in this case, IMO, as I consider the penalty of WIPING OUT the garrison after a revolt, with NO chance, to be unbalanced -- and have no problem with using the starvation loophole to work around that imbalance. Two wrongs, in this case, oddly do come out to make a right: the game is playable with starvation. Without it, frankly, it's not -- or else you have to take the other loophole, which is to raze everything. Either way, the game improperly rewards brutality in an unrealistic way, or perhaps more accurately, penalizes a player too harshly for "playing fair" with captured cities.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

I must not understand the reputation implications of MPP quite right then. I would have thought that "I have MPP with xyz, so be aware, Greece, that any attack on them is an attack on us, and will be treated as a declaration of war on us" (ie, they were the ones breaking rep).

That's what I thought too, until my second game. My rep very definitely went into the drink after MPP activation. What it appears to be, is that you have agreements with two civs, and you break all your agreements with the one civ and attack them, out of obligation to the other. My experience definitely shows me that rep goes south if an MPP leads to broken deals, especially trade deals. Having an MPP with two different civs at war with one another is the worst possible situation (check my Desolate Japan report).

Nearly as bad is making peace prematurely while a military alliance is in effect. That, too, sends your rep into the drink. If you have ANY active agreements other than "Peace Treaty" and declare war, for ANY reason and by any mechanism, then your rep suffers. The game is especially touchy about RoP agreements, if you have one active and declare war, or even if you cancel it on the same turn as you attack, your rep is tarnished. I've taken to cancelling it the turn before. (If I cancel RoP on you, that's NOT a good sign. It's an even worse sign if I have five transports parked in international waters just off the shore of your capital -- as happened to somebody in Apoly4. )



Charis: as for your post length and the other issues you asked about, I'd be hounded (and rightly so) for hypocrisy if offered even one peep of criticism in that direction. I think your reports have taken on quite some life lately. I've laughed a lot. Isn't that a good thing?

 

[Charis]

I thought of this one, too. I thought it I would be clever, and have it give me both Atomic and Electronics, as I had Rep Parts and Communism and Espionage. I was two turns (out of four) into researching Corporation when ToE was constructed. It gave me Corporation and Refining.

Well this may be wake-up-and-smell-the-coffee day???

I've build ToE in most of my games and have never gotten one
I'm researching at the time. First couple of times I built it I felt gyped at getting Comm/Espio. On third time I figured it wasn't random and did some playing. Researching either one meant I did NOT get it, but something else instead (along with the other optional). I don't think it can go "two deep", so hoping for both Atomic and Electronics at once could backfire.

Perhaps this is how it works:
- Find two techs *currently* available and not being researched
- If you've picked less than two, add the one their currently researching to the list
- If still less than two, tough nuggies!

So if you maneuvered to eliminate choices other than Atomic Theory, that would be why it had to give you The Corp.

I tried to look up a definite answer on CF or Apo, but found none. The closest post I saw was as follows (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10789&highlight=theory+and+of+and+evolution)

> In my last game, I started building the Theory of Evolution right
> away. While it was being built, I studied and achieved
> replaceable parts, then counted my turns to finish. I went out
> and traded for espionage and then busted my research to get
> corporation before I finsihed the wonder. I was taking a loss of
> about 80 gold per turn, but it was worth it. I finished the
> Corporation and started refining (the tech with the SHORTEST
> turns to finish. I don't think you'll get the tech you're working
> on as one of your free techs). I then got Steel and Atomic
> Theory right away and never looked back on my tech lead.

Most folks seem to use ToE to jump ahead in the race to Tanks.

I still think we'll get Atomic Theory and Replaceable, but now I'm only 70% sure not 100% 8-/ It will be good to know if this is a good way to get Atomic/Replaceable in the future, and yes, if the answer is no, it's a case of...

Regarding your comments on flipping, I'm glad you've seen Firaxis' comments. I've gone over those threads in detail, and one suggestion that no one could refute by anecdote was... instead of counting foreign nationals it counts *working* foreign nationals. I don't know if that's so, but I've been a total hawk at entertaining captured cities that I can't afford to flip right then, and so far, not a one. That's anecdotal the wrong way- you can prove if a flip can occur by one instance, but can't prove it can't occur by 100 non-flips.

As far as realism, I think starving or making them all Elvis is silly. I can see Courthouses not doing much but Police Stations being great. I would see putting in a brand new temple as more offensive than helpful, too.

Firaxis info that tiles-in-21 under your boundary have a big effect is why I think "Deacon's Beacon" and my other in-your-face city got flips so quick in rbd3.

If they count all foreigners, having size one is hurting us, if they count only working one, it's a HUGE help. (Still not foolproof due to tile pressure) I wish I knew which was right 8-\ (May need some testing)

Thanks for the feedback, (although I sure hope I'm still right ;p)
Charis

 

[Silverbolt]

Hey, Charis, this lurker appreciates long, detailed in-character-style posts as well as posts with minute game details. I come here for the stories, but I also come here to learn. I'm still struggling along at warlord level, so I definitely enjoy reading these debates over strategery . At any rate, keep up the good work, all of you!

 

[BinkleyYaz]

Lurker here ... Per Charis' question, I do believe I have lost cities while starving them down (no workers on tiles), so I think this is possible. But it certainly is rarer than not starving the city, since obviously you are steadily decreasing the # of foreigners.

IMHO, the frequency of culture flipping after military takeover is utter BS. But that's a whole other topic.

And your writeups are fun to read.

BinkleyYaz