RBD10 SG - The Five Iroquois Tribes

[Ozymandous]

Not much to report...

2550 (IT) : Changed nothing (yeah right, following Sirian, you thought there would be problems? )

2510 (1) : Niagara Falls border expands (yeah it was that slow ).

2470 (2) : Niagara Falls builds spear, starts Colossus (34 turns). Explorers find a TON of spices to the South, not that we will settle there just something to report.

2430 (3) : MMOW.

2390 (4) : Grand River border expands, Allegheny builds a warrior, starts a temple.

2350 (5) : Grand River builds a spearman, starts a worker. Salamanca builds a spearman, starts Pyramids (100 turns). Allegheny whips it's temple to completion.

Made contact with India. They don't have Masonry, Pottery or Warrior Code. They DO have Alphabet and The Wheel. I ask them what they want for either of their two techs and get a laundry list of demands.

The Wheel : Masonry, Pottery, 3 gpt and 21 gold (currently all we have and will produce). Same thing for Aplhabet. I tell them thanks but no thanks and leave.

2310 (6) : MMOW, Allegheny finishes temple, starts worker.

2270 (7) : Cattaraugus finishes warrior, starts temple.

2230 (8) : Cattaraugus whips temple. Grand River builds worker starts a barracks (figured it might be a good spot to build for everyone else).

India apparently bought or discovered Warrior Code (thnking they discovered it) from someone because they don't want it now. Not that I would have sold it to then since they only had 10 gp in their treasury anyway!

2190 (9) : Salamanca border expands. Cattaraugus temple finished, starts worker.

2150 (10) : Allegheny border expands.

Made contact with Japan. Sold Warrior Code to Japan for half their treasury (30 gold). They also have The Wheel for sale but want Pottery and Masonry for it. I figure we can wait a little longer.

Great Wonder Update: Colossus = 19 turns. Pyramids = 62 turns.

Notes for next leader...

- There is a worker outside Salamanca working on irrigating a grassland square. I had apparently imbibed in too much "peace pipe smoking" and forgot that the irrigation would be useless in Despotism. You'll want to change him to mining that square. (I was thinking that with the bonus square all Sala would need would be one more good producing food square and it could use more forests to help build Pyramids).

- You may want to hurry and mine the grassland w/ shield square near Niagara Falls to help with Colossus production but it may be too little too late.

Roster order : shdwlord up next. Schnarrd on deck.

 

[Sirian]

Those two whippings were good (get our borders on the front lines expanding ASAP, and lock in 1000 year culture bonus for early temples in all our cities) but we don't want any more! Penalty lasts 40 turns now, and all of these cities will be low-corruption mega producers eventually, so we don't need to be saddling ourselves with 80+ turns of multiple unhappiness.

An irrigated grassland is not a problem, leave it alone unless there are no other squares of equal value to improve. I'm NOT from the camp that says "only irrigate plains, only mine grass". Quite the opposite, I like to have a few irrigated grass lying around for immediate use when I get to Monarchy/Republic, unless the cities are so large or the lands so poor, that there are no surplus "good" tiles going unused. Also, spreading irrigation around a bit allows more access to irrigation in other places which may have higher need. Having a variety of tiles allows you to micromanage to run high food at times for rapid growth, or high shields (even food deficits) at times to speed an urgent project. This can only be done if you stay engaged in the cities, but I do that a lot. If someone hands off to me and every tile in a city has exactly two food, there's no way to adjust anything, like to trade two food for a whole turn of production by swapping to some mined plains, or to double the city growth rate the cost of just one turn lost on production on some big project (which might be made anyway with higher population).

Cattaraugus is kind of stuck, it's got all flood plains and hills, no choice there. Grand River has a lot of hills, so eventually it's going to be wanting extra irrigation on some grasslands, despite the cattle. Salamanca has mostly grass, so mostly it will want mines, but not everywhere. Same with Niagara. The best news about workers is that the AI is dumb and counts them as military units in evaluating your unit strength. So building extra workers early can actually deter enemy attacks. Go figure.


- Sirian

 

[shdwlord]

got it

 

[shdwlord]

Shadow Lord silently slips into his tepee and ponders the direction his people need to take. Noting that the previous cheiftan had worked many brave warriors to death to increase the speed of building construction, Shadow decides the people would best benefit from a reign of peaceful relaxation.

1) 2110

2) 2070

3) 2030 Inspired by the leisurely building pace, the people of Allegheny produce a worker, and begin a barracks. Shadow decides to purchase a worker from Ghandi for 25 gold, sparing him from the destruction that will befall India eventually.

4) 1990

5) 1950

6) 1910

7) 1870 Grand River finishes barracks. Instantly, many braves come to the barracks to learn the ways of the spear.
8) 1830 Cattaraugus citizens note that braves get the best firewater, and finish a worker to construct roads so they too might partake in firewater. Then they begin barracks.

9) 1790

10) 1750

After a very quiet reign of getting ready to build a veteran army, scout exploration, and road construction, Shadow Lord mysteriously disappears with a squaw, leaving only a note:
"I must find a way to cross the vast ocean west of Niagra Falls to find new lands for our people."
It is feared that he attempted to swim the channel after drinking too much firewater, and perished in the attempt.

 

[Carbon_Copy]

Let's just hope he's not having the DNS troubles he was having earlier. If he doesn't show up, I can play late this evening.

 

[Schnarrd]

No, I've just been really busy. Sorry I haven't been good about keeping you guys informed. Since I won't be able to play until tomorrow, Carbon can take his turn now.

 

[Carbon_Copy]

1750 Pre-turn:

-I bump up science a notch, taking 4 turns off of Iron Working and still running a profit.

Whose culture is that we see across the water to our west? Has to be either Egypt or the Zulus.

Hmm, on the diplomatic front, all other known civs have the wheel and it would be darn nice if we could see the horsies. X-man wants 80g, while Toku and Gandhi both want Masonry + 11g. I am tempted to buy the Wheel, but am unwilling at this stage to give gold-hoarding Xerxes some more money or either Japan or India the means to start into the wonder cascade.

1-1725:

-Grand River trains a spear, starts a worker. We need more workers to get our cities connected up in a timely fashion, being non-Industrious and all with all these hills and trees. We also need more military, so balance that as you must.

3-1625:

-GR finishes worker, starts making more spears

6-1600:

-I bump science to break-even now that we're over 100. Iron working now comes in 7.

8-1550:

-Now that our settlers can see the whole of the land between Japan and Persia, there are wide stretches of land that are wholly uninhabitable. There is also a long, skinny bay ending in that chokepoint between Japan and Persia.

9-1525:

-a Barbarian horsie kills our spear from across a river and pillages Allegheny of its progress in its Barracks. :aargh3: What is worse, it will take 4 turns to get another defender there from Salamanca. I let go of Salamanca's regular spear to send to Allegheny, to replace it on the next turn with a vet spear from Grand River.

10-1500:

-The action on these turns this early are really feast-or-famine, aren't they? We lose our northernmost scout to a barb horsie from a camp he discovered.
-We get the Colossus. A Golden Age ensues. Niagara Falls starts Barracks.

-Speaking of Barbarian horsemen, one is going to pillage Allegheny AGAIN on the next turn. Hmm...it's time to spend some gold. I dial up Xerxes, and take him up on his Wheel for 80g deal.

-I then see that X-man got Iron Working (eep! Immortals!), and I also notice that his discovery put us over the 1 turn threshold for Iron Working, ourselves. So i toss him another string of beads and get it a turn earlier. Was buying the wheel and giving Xerxes a TON of cash to throw around (>300 in his treasury right now) a smart move, or did Chief Carbon have some wacky tobbacky in his peace pipe? It's good to know that we'll be set for units until muskets show up, at least.

-With Golden Age commerce and production, the Pyramids will finish in 17 turns @ size 6 and we will research Alphabet in 8 turns at the current science rate...wait, I micromanage two tiles, and it comes in at 6 turns instead , with the option of a 4 turn discovery if we go for broke. That gold hill by Grand River is worth FIVE trade for the next 20 turns.

-The best news: Iron and Horsies are both safely within our borders! our horse is within Salamanca's city radius, and Iron is in a hill by Cattaragaus. I also note with a certain disgust that despite only having 3 cities, Xerxes does indeed have Iron in his territory, though not connected as far as I can tell. Oh well, if they want to play with their Immortals, we'll be ready to meet them with our Mounted Warriors...when we get Horseback Riding and connect the horsies, that is.

-The Pyramids should be a lock for us, so the next chief might want to broker away Masonry to India and Japan before the X-man gets any richer.

 

[Grey Fox]

I've got the game...

 

[Grey Fox]

Pre-Turn
Increases science spending to 80%, getting 2G/Turn, and getting Alphabet in 5 turns instead of 6.

1: 1475 BC
The evil Apache tribe pillaged Allegheny, and some of our people were lost.

2: 1450 BC
The Apache pillaged us again.

3: 1425 BC
Raised the Luxary rate to 10%, getting everybody to work in all our cities. Lowering Pyramid working time from 14 to 12.

4: 1400 BC
Worker management...

5: 1375 BC
We learn the alphabet.

6: 1350 BC
Nothing special...

7: 1325 BC
Now we have horses.

8: 1300 BC
6 Turns to get The Pyramids.

9: 1275 BC
No special...

10: 1250 BC
Writing in 3 Turns
Gold Deposit: 50.
Income: 1G/Turn
T/S/L = 2.7.1

I don't know if we could handle Republic when it's time to switch government. Our Allowed units is now 20, and we have 21 units.

I'm currently building walls in Allegheny, but that could be changed to what ever the next leader wants. But I did not want to loose more money per turn.

2 Scouts. (These could be discarded)
2 Warriors. (These could be discarded)
6 Workers.
11 Spearman.

We have a strong army compared to everyone we have met!

 

[Sirian]

Got it.

 

[Schnarrd]

I said I'd be able to play today, and I meant what I said! Well, actually it's not that big a deal, since it still would be a little tough to squeeze in a turn today.

 

[Sirian]

In the "It Would Be Nice If..." category, we have a wild new scheme by Sirian entitled "Spice Colonies".

It occurred to me near the end of my second turn that there are enough mountains surrounding the spices to our south, and enough spices bunched there, that it would be WELL worth our while to invest over a dozen military units into establishing a permanent outpost of spice colonies. This would be a major undertaking, and we would have to completely, flawlessly block out the AI from settling near there. The only reason it might even be possible to pull off is SO many mountains in the area, which cannot be settled on. So we would only have to fortify one unit in each settlement-able tile to block anybody from founding cities in the area.

We would need AT LEAST 8 units to get started, and would have to hurry before Persia gets a settler over there. We might not be able to make it, but it would give us something to do with our surplus units. (Most of our Golden Age went into building military).

IF we could secure all four spices indefinitely, the trade value on a large map would more than pay for the costs of maintaining the units, and would give us something to trade away for techs and such later, when research costs (at 1.5x normal price) shoot off the charts. If we could also remain peaceful with Persia and our other neighbors (possible), it would be a great move. However, it's a lot of work, a definite reach, and not without some risks.

I had sent two units in that direction to look for the barbarian camp, then it occurred to me that with just three units, I could block Persia from settling on the river. THEN it occurred to me that we might even be able to get the spices for ourselves, and what would it take to do so?

Here's what it would take:

1) Top priority, all eight red marked tiles. If we can't muster that and soon, Persia will settle over there.
2) Mid priority, the six yellow tiles. These are also needed for survival of our colonies.
3) Low priority, the light blue tiles, in locations where later in the game, expanding borders would swallow up one or more of our colonies (though maybe we could raze any cities threatening to do this, as it would take them some time to expand borders that far).

What do you guys think? Would this wacky plan be worth pursuing?

 

[Sirian]

IT 1250BC: With nothing to build in our Golden Age besides troops, I decide it's worth the gambit to try to nab both Oracle AND the Great Library. Grand River has a ton of shields, I swap it to Palace Placeholder. Niagara is changed to chariots, Cattaraugus to workers. I also raise science by 10% to run a deficit and get Writing in 2 turns, not 3.

1225BC: I disband one of our scouts and have to move a spear over to protect a worker near Allegheny, as another barb horsie shows up.

1200BC: Barb horsie takes 2 hp off our spear in Allegheny (only defender in the town, other is guarding the worker) then dies. I am moving more troops in this direction, and building more. We discover Writing. Mysticism can be researched in four turns at just 40% science. I CONTINUE AT 70%.

1175BC: Normally, I would buy embassies at this point, but we are lowish on cash and in a hurry to gain a vital tech lead while our golden age is ongoing. Embassies shall have to wait!

1150BC: Salamanca builds the Pyramids!

We have now invested almost enough beakers to research Mysticism! Sadly, the 4-turn minimum would require us to go two more turns to research it. Well fooey on that! I top off our tank by buying the last little bit of Mysticism from Japan @4th-civ for 11 gold. We start researching Literature.

I start Salamanca on the Oracle. WE DO NOT WANT TO BUILD THE ORACLE IN SALAMANCA! Grand River could finish it sooner, however we cannot use the Palace as a placeholder in the capital, so until Literacy is researched, we must continue to use palace as placeholder for Oracle in Grand River, and use the Oracle as placeholder for the Great Library in Salamanca.

1125-1050BC: Rest of our golden age is spent researching Literature, building up troops (mostly chariots, which can upgrade to our glorious Mounted Warriors later), and workers.

1025BC: Our golden age ends. Luxuries have to be propped back up to 20%.

1000BC: Our last scout is disbanded after exploring the last of the continent in the north. I readjust our cities and F1 sliders, in the wake of the loss of golden production and trade levels. We are seven turns away from literature. Grand River will reach 300 shields in 12 turns, should be plenty enough to beat Ghandi to the punch, and the others on our continent are not even in the race. Our main worry is what the other eight civs on the other continents have been up to.


Advice:

IF SOMEONE SHOULD BEAT US TO ORACLE: leave Grand River on Palace placeholder, for the Great Library, and waste the surplus shields at Salamanca on the best-looking option (a library, or a military unit). This would be unfortunate, but as we had nothing else to be building but more troops (and we're already over the limit on what we can easily pay for) no great loss if it happens.

If no one steals the Oracle from us, then when Literature has been researched, swap Grand River to Oracle and put Salamanca on Great Library. We need the Oracle to be finished ASAP. If anybody steals the Oracle, then build the Great Library in Grand River.

If you're worried about Ghandi's progress on the Oracle from cascade from him starting the Pyramids, I scouted part of his lands near the capital. He's on a river but has no hills. We could establish an embassy with him to get a peek inside his city, but I was pretty sure we can finish first, so I didn't bother. Too bad we're in contact with only 3 of the other 11 civs! But we got such a roaring fast start and with the early Golden Age, I like our chances.

We want regular libraries in our other cities at the first chance, but no forced labor, no whippings. Not worth it. As for science, I think we should research mapmaking next (and not wait for it from the great library), so we can build the Lighthouse at Niagara falls and go exploring to meet more civs. (After that, shutting down research and riding the Great Library for all it's worth may be in order).


- Sirian



If we're going to try for the Spice Colony Gambit, we'll also have to get started on that soon.

Sirian
Ozymandous << up now
shdwlord <<< on deck
Schnarrd
Carbon Copy
Grey Fox

 

[Ozymandous]

Will try to play tonight. The Spice gambit sounds good to me, of course we could always build another city on the top Spice and be done with it, but...

Just kidding.

 

[Carbon_Copy]

It's a bad map in the good sense...how often have you had the chance to completely overrun Persia before they get Immortals? If this were a normal game, we'd SO kick their butts ( I think in this game we want them to live so that neither Japan nor India gets TOO big for us to handle). I definitely want to play this later from the end of Sirian's first turn as just a normal game and see just how easily we'd beat down Xerxes, expand so we take up half this continent, and cruise to a victory. Curbing the urge to build some more settlers and just blow these guys away is tough.

As for the Spice Gambit....eh, sure, whatever. What else are we gonna do with our troops for the next 1000 years? If we can manage it,then it would be great to do it. I know I was thinking along those same lines, but I was sure that I'd catch a lot of and smilies from Sirian's corner if I even suggested it (as it was, I'm surprised I didn't get the beatdown over buying the wheel off of Xerxes).

 

[Ozymandous]

Interesting set of turns. Here's the skinny...

1000 BC - IT : Nothing changed (again). I decided to go for the Spice gambit figuring that since we had really nothing else to build except units (or wealth ) I might as well.

975 -1 : Allegheny finishes a worker, starts a scout (moves fast and cheaper than a chariot, speed was needed I thought.)

950 -2 : Bad news!! Athens finishes the Oracle!! Salamanca swaps to barracks (wastes 74 shields). Niagara Falls completes a chariot, starts another (re-occuring theme).

925 -3 : Allegheny builds a scout, starts a chariot (with units already building/built I figurd we had enough place holders for now, more on this later.) Salamanca finishes a barracks, starts scout (could build a scout in one turn as opposed to 2-3 turns for Allegheny).

900 -4 : Niagara Falls builds a chariot, starts another.

Note: Somewhere in the middle of my turn, as I was moving the units south to try to block the Spice the Persians moved a settler/spearman pair near the right-most "red square" block on the "Spice Gambit" map. I moved a warrior to block, the settler moved SE one. Next turn they moved SE again and the turn after that they founded a city there. The spices are 2 squares due west from the Persian town so eventually they will become in their culture radius, but I kept moving units there to keep more Persian settlers away anyhow.

875 -5 : Salamanca finishes scout, starts chariot. (this was while I was blocking the settler I believe).

850 -6 : Niagara Falls does it's thing.

825 -7 : Literature discovered, Map-Making next. Grand River swapped to the Great Library, everywhere else changes to library except Cattaraugus which continues it's spearman.

800 -8 : Cattaraugus builds spearman, starts library.

775 -9 : Worker movement.

750 -10 : Worker & troop movement (barb's started roaming around again.)

Odds & Ends:

- Chariots are on the way to 2 barb camps, we need the gold desperately.

- Checking relations, I decided to sell Literature to India for Horseback Riding and 15 gold. Persia and Japan only offered 50% of the gold India did and I figured we might as well get to build our Mounted Warrior!

- Sold Lit to Persia for 70 gold at miser prices and to Japan for 63 gold at miser prices.

- Map Making in 9 turns running massive negative cash (-32 gpt with a treasury of 164 gold now). We can withstand at most 5 turns of this negative spending before we're almost broke, so it's probably not a good idea to do, but otherwise we'd be stuck at 25+ turns to research it otherwise.

- Great Library in ten turns, let's hope we get it.

- Oh and if anyone gives us lip we have Mounted Warriors now , but Persia still has Immortals..

 

[Schnarrd]

Bad news!! Athens finishes the Oracle!! Salamanca swaps to barracks (wastes 74 shields).

Well, that's unfortunate. At least we'll probably still get the GL. By the way, wasn't there something that required more shields that you could switch to besides a barracks (like a library)?

Note: Somewhere in the middle of my turn, as I was moving the units south to try to block the Spice the Persians moved a settler/spearman pair near the right-most "red square" block on the "Spice Gambit" map. I moved a warrior to block, the settler moved SE one. Next turn they moved SE again and the turn after that they founded a city there. The spices are 2 squares due west from the Persian town so eventually they will become in their culture radius, but I kept moving units there to keep more Persian settlers away anyhow.

Hmm. Sounds like a city that we'll have to raze if we ever get the chance. Not that I think we'll ever be more powerful than X-Man, but chances are we'll eventually be at war with him, and when that happens, :soldier:

EDIT:

If I'm not mistaken, this is the turn order:

Sirian
Ozymandous
shdwlord << up now
Schnarrd << on deck
Carbon Copy
Grey Fox

 

[shdwlord]

got it

 

[shdwlord]

Inherited turn: Switched Cattaraugus's workers a bit, shaved 1 turn off library. Dropped science to 30%, -3 gold and map making in 22 turns.
Indians start the Great Library.

1) 730 chariot defeats a barbarian warrior, but the camp has spawned a horsemen already

2) 710

3) 690 chariot attacks barbarian camp and is defeated.

4) 670 Niagra Falls finishes library, begins worker.
Xerxes has established an embassy in our capital.

5) 650 No one we know has map making, so I start Niagra Falls on the palace in hopes of getting the great lighthouse. barbarian camp raided by our warrior.
The Persians begin the great library.

6) 630 Salamanca finishes library, begins worker.

7) 610

8) 590 Cattaraugus finishes library.
The Japanese are building the great library.

9) 570 Allegheny finishes library.

10) 550 The Great Library has been completed in Grand River. Everyone we know has mapmaking now, so I go ahead and trade our world map to everyone for their world map, 70 gold, and map making. Niagra Falls switched to the Great Lighthouse. Allegheny switched to a galley. Usually, I would build a harbor first, for the veteran boat, but since everyone has our world map, they can see the yellow border to the west, we should make contact before anyone else can so we can trade contacts and world maps.

 

[Grey Fox]

If we got the G.Library, why did you trade for Map Making... wouldn't we have gotten it the next turn?