rbd23 - b

Originally posted by Sirian
C's going to win. No doubt about it in my mind. The winning move was the upgrade of a whole stack of horse to sam, which allowed them to lay into the Aztecs at a point in time which we did not even have chivalry yet.


I intend for the next RBD competition SG to play out on at least a standard size map, with objectives that won't leave the game hanging on the outcome of a couple of early combat rolls.

- Sirian


Well I didn't even thing of horse to Samit, even thought I did it in LK21 :blush:


I agree - another competitors - standard map. Civ3 can cascade on a few early events - I think someone said that Germany may have gotten a settler in our game.
That SINGLE piece of luck cost us the competition.
 
The Germans did get a free settler from a hut in 3750BC in our game, but as far as I can tell that happened in the other games as well. I checked the replay for "c" and they had the same situation. I would guess that the same thing happened in "a" as well. So that, at least, didn't cost us the game.

Yeah, "c" should almost certainly win the competition, but I will withhold declaring them victors until I see them get a little bit closer to victory; there still exists the possibility of some truly horrendous combat results for them.

Upgrading horses to samurai was definitely a very cool play. I don't think we even built a single horsemen - just went from swordsmen to samurai :eek:
 
A few comments...

A "couple" archers against Berlin early? I had a full-fledge mini-SoD there -- about 6 archers (maybe 5) as I recall. And the final spear-spear battle was an elite vs. a wounded. (Or was it spear vs. archer -- been a long time ago).
The 20-shield archer can crank out much faster than 30-shield sword and is advantageous to EXTREMELY early war -- which is what this was.
Lucky? Absolutely, but not far outside the bounds of probability, I believe.

Horses to samurai? Of course. They're in the chain. I consider such knowledge integral to playing Civ3. I KNOW that the Japanese horses I'm seeing now will be samurai soon. I gotta do something about that.
No, samurai don't need horses to be built (or upgraded to), but you can do the upgrade. HUGELY important. This saved us 20 turns easily -- because we had the gold (like you guys did) and could start with the conquest IMMEDIATELY on the discover of chivalry. Probably 30 turns saved, really.

Leaders? What can I say? We got very lucky there. Not so lucky late in the game, but by then, it didn't matter.

I like your second city placement better than mine, Sirian. I hadn't fully appreciated the lack of fresh water and what it meant.

Did going south instead of north mean the Germans attacked that much sooner? I went north first (just ... because, really), so we made contact later. Did that make a difference? Possible. And, again, lots of dumb luck in the decision.

You also contacted Russia WAY before we did. I wonder why. Russia was way behind for much of the game in "c".

One other possible :weed: I would claim is not getting any alliances. Sure, they might not be very helpful, but having A and Z fight each other helped us make great gains -- and made A weaker when we attacked them. Using Persia to help with Z also probably had little effect other than slowing down Xerxes by encouraging war-like tendencies. I think doing everything yourself really hurt you on the war front.

Tech was WAY faster in this game than in "c" -- at least, it feels like it. Being at war a lot is a nice way to slow down tech.

I think you guys also didn't realize how close A/Z island was to the capital. Over in "c", our FP was about as close to Kyoto as yours. Yes, it started a bit later but the effect was greatly magnified because it wasn't surrounded by water.

No broken treaties to my knowledge. Shaka declared on us the first time, and the second...I guess I'm not sure of. Rome and Persia late were honest declarations (land troops and then declare their turn when they order us out) -- we never did do a lot of luxury trading, as we had loads ourselves. And no need for cash.

We didn't have the peace renogs you guys did either. Got you some gold/one city but hamstrung your war efforts a bit. We just either demanded or traded. Kept us flexible.

Yeah, we talk a lot. I'm probably the most guilty of that. I tease because I see so much of it in myself.

Definitely early things can swing the game a lot. I make no apologies for taking full advantage of it, though.

FUN READ!

I want to discuss MORE!
Arathorn
 
Arathorn,

If you've read through our game then you must have seen some of the uncommonly bad luck we had at times. On my third turn I had no fewer than 5 vet swordsmen fail to take a single Russian spearman. So when we were reading of your conquest of Berlin with archers... well, you can understand the frustration some of us felt. :p

None of us blame your team for having better luck than the rest of us; in fact, the upgrade from horsemen to samurai was almost certainly the winning move in the game and something we didn't even consider. But we didn't even get access to horses until 1000 years after your team did. :) Team C played the best overall game, taking full advantage of early victories and never letting up on the AI.

I would agree with Sirian that this was probably not the best setup for a competiton game though. He predicted the winning team would be the one that defeated Germany first on the very first game turn, all the way back in 3000BC. These competitions certainly are fun though, aren't they? Maybe another one will be in the works soon. :king:
 
I would agree with Sirian that this was probably not the best setup for a competiton game though. He predicted the winning team would be the one that defeated Germany first on the very first game turn, all the way back in 3000BC. These competitions certainly are fun though, aren't they? Maybe another one will be in the works soon.

That's the whole thing. How does one make the outcome less luck-dependent? I had a feeling our early success against Germany was going to be quite helpful, but I wasn't sure it wouldn't be duplicated. Hence, the last-turn push to finish ASAP.

I imagine Sirian has some ideas -- I have some, too, but they're all questionable. The mere existence of Great Leaders (which I like, BTW) adds a very high degree of luck to the outcome of certain strategies. It's a hard issue. I believe GOTMs have some of that, too, but also an unacceptable, IMO, amount of score-pandering where people get just under domination victory and just "score whore" which to me is absolutely pointless.

Arathorn
 
I wouldn't so much say that we had uncommonly good luck in combat results, as that we had fairly average (or maybe slightly better than average) combat results luck, and our bad-luck points were pretty well spread out and tended to be when we had the ability to reinforce readily, so didn't matter as much. On the other hand, your bad combat results luck seemed to come in big bunches at the worst possible times and force you to delay offensives by many turns. Of course, the distribution of good luck vs bad luck vis-a-vis important battles vs less important battles is a luck factor in and of itself, so in that sense I guess you could say we had good combat results distribution luck. Or, maybe you could say I'm just talking out of my a**... ;)

I liked your settlement of Japan, and you certainly got a more economically powerful Japan out of it... but, in the end, I'm not sure it would have been worth it for us to follow a similar strategy, and I'm a builder by inclination -- sometimes I felt like I had to build every worker we didn't capture myself. :) This competition was about speed to finish; on a small map, that factor will completely dominate territory+population EVERY TIME, unless you deliberately try to milk the score. Instead of building a lot of settlers to found a lot of size 6 cities, and thereby slow the growth and mil production of our existing ones, we built a few settlers and concentrated more on capturing territory. We also focussed on infrastructure only in a few key areas and built military for the most part elsewhere. This saved us a lot of time over how long it would have taken to completely maximize Japan's potential. That's not to say we couldn't have made improvements in how we managed our infrastructure situation (I have NO doubt of that; :rolleyes: we definately could have done a better job with city placement, and with getting our lands improved) but I think overall we gave it the right level of priority. For instance, it turned out that Arathorn was completely right to mostly ignore my requests for infrastructure spending around our FP site on his last turn. In a scenario like this, it doesn't pay to think TOO long term and develop too much infrastructure. Of course, too little infrastructure is just as much a problem -- as always, the key is striking the right balance... but in a game where speed is the priority, the balance tilts a bit away from infrastructure over what is usually the case.

Your approach of building an FP in Germany and trying to milk Japan for all it was worth was interesting, and one I considered but rejected on the grounds that the lands were simply too poor. On the other hand, we built our FP almost too late to be of any real assistance. I think we could have gotten it a LOT sooner, though, if we'd correctly rejected the idea of Zimbabwe as our FP city from the outset and purpose-founded Izumo for the job from day one of its existence. Given the quality of the land in that region as compared with the quality of the land near Berlin, I think we ultimately made the right call for where to build the FP, even though we muffed up the execution.

Taking a few calculated risks to speed up the game definately paid off for us (although Arathorn's right, Berlin was not much of a gamble at all -- we outnumbered Berlin's defenders 2-to-1 at that point, because of our early mil push.) However, IMO that's the right attitude for a speed-based competition; take the risk and trust to skill to pull your bacon out if it doesn't play the way you expect it to. If you don't take risks, you won't finish ahead of the middle of the pack. If you do take the risk and wind up giving the AI an opening due to a failed gambit, you can almost invariably count on it to fail to follow up properly, get distracted by something else (e.g. diplomatic shenanigans, or pillaging horseman gambit) or even miss it completely, especially on Monarch and below.

About the post count quips -- you DID notice our tongues planted firmly in our cheeks, didn't you? :p

The only thing I noticed in B that I was thinking was a bit wacky :smoke: was going after Russia second after Germany, rather than the Aztecs or Zulus. I would have thought that the fact that you would need Astronomy to get anything home from there (and not from A-Z land), plus the fact that their lands were not much better than Japan's and hence they could never be a real threat, production-wise, plus the fact that you could get a decent beachhead on A-Z continent with actual production going due to proximity to our capital, would be a real strong disincentive to go after Russia and pick Aztecs or Zulus instead. Even if the Aztecs were weaker and the Zulu stronger than they were in C, getting the Zulu into a dual or treble front war would still have weakened them to the point where you could have taken a big bite out of them.
 
So, this is the main discussion thread? :)

Anyway, as I sad in "our" thread, I had much fun with this game and am looking forward to the next one. :goodjob:

The early warmonger push from Arathorn could have easily gone the other way. Obviously, it was a risk in itself, but it worked out well... for us :D

From what I have read, Sirian also tried the early push, but it almost resulted in the loss of your capitol. Then again, it didn't.

Every battle in civ (from what I know) is based on %%%, so attempting to eliminate "luck" from it is unreasonable (at least).

That said, I would have liked Team B not losing all those swordsmen, the competition would be a little more... competitive :rolleyes:
 
Zed, if you're wondering why we went after Russia instead of Azteca or Zululand you'll have to ask Sirian. He gave the game to me with us already at war with Catherine. :)

I see that there was a reason: the Aztecs paid us a good sum of money not to attack them. Very interesting turn of events in the game there. Actually I see that it was noted even at the time that that was a significant turn in the game. And yes, things might have worked out differently if we had eliminated Russia around 500AD. Probably not enough to win, but the scores would have been closer.

On an unrelated subject... do you think Team A is *EVER* going to finish? ;)
 
Granted, losing all those swords in Russia hurt -- and hurt a lot. But the land up there was SO bad, I'm not convinced taking one city (or even two cities) up there would have made that much difference. The extra swords would've helped, of course, but I'm not convinced that even in 10 BC, they would've made THAT big of a difference (of course, if lady luck had really smiled down and "b" gotten a leader for a sword army in Russia, it might be a totally different story).

And, oh no! "b" might pass "c" in thread count! :lol:

I understand not attacking the Aztecs for 200 gold (or whatever Sirian got). But why not land on Zululand and use those good relations with Monty (an alliance)? Russia was tragic from the get-go, with too much tundra, too little food, and no trade route to Japan before Astronomy. Granted, if you'd've had the same luck with Shaka that you did with Cathy, it might not have made much difference -- except in style points.

Russia was not a likely threat, either -- as they lacked iron -- knowable at the time -- and seemed unlikely to have saltpeter (not lots of the right lands and the ones they did were close to luxuries and the placement algorithm seems to like to spread luxuries and resources far apart).

I did have a fair chunk of "bad luck" in my last turn, but by that time, it didn't matter. We had enough samurai to finish the job -- and an income to rush a few here and there when needed (extra ~36 gpt from Colussus was nice there -- helped make up for other deficiencies).

Your Nara beating the Zulu Swazi in our game was a nice coup -- wish we could've pulled that off. Of course, the military push eventually got us Swazi for peace, so it's just different routes to the same place.

And, I predict "a" will finish in ~2 weeks with only two players.

Arathorn
 
Team B might have had different results if I had weighed in with more opinions, advice, directions, options, and other talk. Winning, however, was not my top priority. It was up there, but this was going to be a team affair so I limited my comments. Team C had no less than THREE deity-veteran players on it, while both A and B had one apiece.

Some things I would have done differently than my team:

* Attack Germany with archers. Just like Arathorn did. That was my vision from the outset, but my team went for swords and we also played the first round with long turns, so the deal with Germany was OVER before the game got back to me, and I had no further input on the war after posting my first turn.

* Not attack beyond the Russian fur city. In our game, Catherine was kicking some ass early. She landed a settler pair on the A-Z continent very early (which is why I attacked her instead of the Aztecs) and already had that little island north of Japan and was looking like she'd spread out. I didn't have all the world info at that time, and nobody had contacted Persia as yet (leading me to believe they were isolated in the middle of the ocean -- wrong assumption). I meant for us to BLUNT Russia a bit, then turn to the west, but my teamies pushed our all at Russia and it didn't work out.

There was also some really BAD BAD :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: in our game with the choice to limit our capital's population growth in the first round. Forget who made that decision, but it was carried on across many turns, and we threw away a lot in doing so. If we had grown to max size at the best rate, a 10% lux tax which would ONLY have applied to the capital anyway and thus cost us NOTHING, and two military police units kept on defense at all times, would have covered it. I even argued for that, but nobody paid attention, and it was a long LONG time until my second turn came around. Our capital was still size 3 or 4 nearing AD times because it had been stalled on food for ages. Big mistake. I kept from saying anything while the game was running because there was no point dwelling on it then. However, as a matter of strategic principle, it is never ever ever good to limit the population size of your capital. The larger it gets the faster, the better.

I also think these two eras are the ones in which we lost the most ground to Team C. Even though that's the case, though, it made for some interesting dilemmas for me when my turns came around.


I tend to be too conservative in ancient warfare, as I don't do very well if a stack of mine gets wiped out, so I tend to underestimate how far I could push with a relentless effort. My best results come when the most advantage is to be had from early peaceful expansion, with war postponed into the industrial era, or never to come at all. More to the point, I don't LIKE Civ3 ancient warfare, since it is so much more luck-oriented than the rest of the game, and seeing that this game would turn almost entirely on the ancient combat results a few turns in, I was rather disappointed with the scenerio. I did figure that Arathorn would thrive in it, though. His favorite soup. :)

Congrats, team C, on a victory well earned.


There are a number of things I would like to see done differently for the next competitive SG:

* More balanced teams in terms of experience at high difficulty.
* Standard map.
* Pre-screened scenerio, to make sure none of the AI's are right there on top of the start location.
* Something other than the score as a victory condition.
* Something other than gogogogo conquest as an objective.
* Someone other than smegged in charge. :) (No offense kiddo, you did OK, but... coulda done better. Don't you agree?)
* Not rush into it right away. Some other things to settle first, and also I think it'd help if we get familiar with the new patch enough to have some sense of how it affects strategies.


- Sirian
 
Sirian, you're right that your team had limited experience relative to C -- perhaps a better way to counteract that would be to give more commentary, rather than less. I understand you didn't want to dominate your team, and I applaud that choice... but surely it would have helped to provide options without a lot in the way of pushing one way or another, and then let the rest of the team debate between them and pick one? There was a lot of back-and-forth communication in C, mostly between Arathorn and myself since our playstyles are so different, and I think it helped our results significantly. I notice that one thing that's NOT happening much in A is communication between players, and their results show it.
 
* Not attack beyond the Russian fur city.

Ummm... no offense meant here, Sirian, but we never did attack beyond the Russian fur city. It took near 30 turns of throwing everything we had at the Russians just to get THAT. Look at the dismal failures LKendter and I had against that city. I will say that your other points are probably correct, although I would personally never go for an archer conquest simply because every time I have ever tried that it has backfired (*BADLY*) on me. I can certainly see the advantages and even necessity on higher difficulties though.
 
Actually, looking back - our big mistake versus Russia

NOT enough ships!
To many couple of unit attacks - we never got setup for a major attack!

I did NOT play up to my best, as I am to use to 20 turn rounds.
I makes big difference. My attack versus Russia was that I wanted to do something - not a well planned attack.

I think standard RDB members did have an edge here.

Should Sirian taken charge more? I don't know - this game was rough for me, I was really thrown not being the senior team member. If Sirian pushes more - I think my play would have been worse. I am grateful he didn't take charge more.
 
LK, I wasn't meaning to imply he should have taken charge more... just that more discussion usually leads to a better overall result, even without dictating/suggesting a couse of action, but just mentioning possibilities. Looking back again at the thread I do see several points where he did discuss his thinking, so I guess that qualifies -- meaning my comment was unnecessary. (whoops :) ) Anyway, the extra discussion certainly helped our team.
 
Sullla: you mean all those losses were against the FIRST city on the Russian land? Wow and good grief, I thought we won that one OK and then lost the stack against the NEXT city up. I guess I didn't read carefully enough -- our luck was worse than I thought! :lol:

Team C made better strategic choices, though. Some, I think, came about as a result of others, like having horses online right away meant little or no resources into swords, and that was just hugely helpful. Getting the leader helped enable some of their other good choices, as they had no science worries. Also, the early foothold city was worth more than I anticipated, because in addition to the foothold it was productive in itself, being closer than it spatially appeared to be to the capital. I try to remind myself that the maps are mathematically SQUARE, that stuff that looks near to the north or south is far away, and stuff that looks far to east and west is actually pretty close, but no matter how much I pay attention to this, I still sometimes forget and misjudge what the corruption is going to be.

I feel my attack against Russia may have been the biggest mistake I made. I saw the Aztecs were just SO weak, though, (weaker, apparently, in our game, by far, than any of the others. They got really trounced hard in a 2000BC era war with Shaka) that we'd do better to take on someone else first, and I'm afraid that I fell prey to the "want to do something on my turn" factor on that decision. All our troops were tied up at Berlin, which I could not attack on my turn. Our eastern cities were stripped bare, badly in need of infrastructure, and I had ONE available sword unit on that turn, so I made the most of him, taking out two Russian cities, effectively... but it sent our team down a dead end road. Maybe if I had attacked the Aztecs instead... and tried for us to take them over... they were SO weak, they would have been fairly easy pickins at the time. But... our troops were too far away, so our longer war with Germany, which dragged on and on and on, kind of led us to Russia just because they were the next closest target, visually speaking. Logistically, they weren't. My attack on Russia was making the most of my own turn, but it didn't lay any groundwork for my team, and the whole rest of that entire round suffered as a result, as each successive player followed my example and tried to make the most of their own turn, instead of us forming and executing a grander plan.


- Sirian
 
I'm not sure how distance to the capital is actually measured for purposes of corruption. For me, when determining relative corruption, I just count the tiles between the city and the capital, BUT I apply a 1.4 (root 2) multiplier for any tile I cross diagonally. So,

Distance to your Yokohama (our Satsuma): 5 across + 1 diagonal = 6.4 tiles

Distance to your Tokyo: 5 diagonal = 7.0 tiles

Distance to our Tokyo: 5 diagonal + 2 across = 9.0 tiles

Even just counting tiles straight up, your Yokohama site is 6 tiles away, which is not too far. To me, on the map, it appears pretty close... but conceptually, that gulf in between A-Z land and Japan makes it seem farther than it really is.

Anyway, that's how I gague corruption... is there actually a further N-S corruption penalty due to the map being square as you mention? Or is that covered by the 1.4 for diagonal crossings?
 
On corruption, check out the thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19922

I found it very helpful -- even if it is now a bit outdated (done pre-1.21f patch) and not necessarily 100% accurate (not sure FP calcs are all correct). The 1.4 "correction" for diagonal movement is semi-correct, as it appears to be truly a Pythagorean distance. Good enough for a quick estimate, though.

Some "procedural/design" things that I think helped "c":

- 10 turn turns -- this gives lots of time for analysis and encourages lots of examination of the situation
- TONS of discussion -- I often have a fair chunk of time during the day to think/type about Civ3 stuff and Zed-F and I (mainly) had lots of talks about strategy/direction which I think helped
- Experience -- smegged somehow picked at least three deity-capable (Zed, me, Lovro, and GF might make 4) players for our game
- charliehoke's two-day delay came at a crucial time and I think the extra days led to some really nice decisions
- ancient war is kinda my cup-of-tea (most any war really is) and that was required to finish this set-up early

Regardless, it was a lot of fun!

And we were only about a week behind you guys in finish date -- not TOO horrible a wait.

Arathorn
 
I have to agree that 10 turns per player really helped Team C, mainly the player on deck. This way, all players have twice the chance to voice their opinion and so many discussion really leaves the next player something to work with. It was especially interesting for me to read (Zed and Arathorn's) discussions, which left the next player with many options and, if he had no idea what to do, it was just a matter of weighing others' opinions out to determine which one suits him best.

Also, IIRC, someone (Sirian?) already said on this thread, 10 turns per player makes for a quick rotation, thus you can still see similarities between your last turn and what you were handed. You can even see the consequences of some of your moves :rolleyes:

Over the past two months or so, I have grown very fond of acient warfare, and warfare in general. Thus, I am very happy things worked out the way they did.
 
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