RBD9 SG - Five Russian Cities

[Sirian]

Cyrene's up... I'm on deck. Cy, any chance you can squeeze in at least five turns before your weekend starts?


EDIT: OK, wrong thread, wrong game, wrong roster. Cy's not up. Ignore this mistake. I don't know who IS up (Charis?) but I do know that I follow Cy. Right? I do follow Cy in this one don't I?

I'm now going to go back to Jestograd and doze some more.

 

[Charis]

Jaffa
Jester
Zed <<<< up
Charis << on deck
Cyrene
Sirian

Usually we don't get commentary before the notes, but let me point out...

- We're in anarchy (headed for Republic I assume) - out in 2
- We know about the Chinese and Indians
- Must have had a 'GL flood' come when that happened,
and alas, Education popped out. Crud!! They beelined Edu!
No Engr yet (we're researching that now) or Chivalry
- We're building Courthouse and Marketplaces, and the Great Lighthouse, about 2/3 done. This must be a placeholder though, for Sistine (which we have the tech for, about 1/3 done, and I would guess about 45 turns to finish)
- Couldn't spare units to blockade the south or it wasn't a priority, but Persia has settled just below us (do have E/W blockaded anyway)
- We're strapped for cash. Looks to be about zero surplus even with 0 or 10% science. Unit costs are WAY up there. With lesser trade bonuses, we would likely fare as bad in Monarchy. Must be fear of Persian (hard to blame ;p I see immortals on the horizon)
- Persia is currently annoyed! I think we have too much
he wants, two communications and two techs. The clown can't even build a road down to us to trade mutually beneficial luxuries

Looking forward to the report!
Charis

 

[Zed-F]

Ok, got it.

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Originally posted by Charis
- We're building Courthouse and Marketplaces, and the Great Lighthouse, about 2/3 done. This must be a placeholder though, for Sistine (which we have the tech for, about 1/3 done, and I would guess about 45 turns to finish)

Heh. Well, I guess it could be a placeholder now (GL expires at Navigation, right?), but I don't think it was intended to be when we started.

 

[Charis]

GL expired at Education. *(

I do tend to undervalue Great Lighthouse in non-naval games and especially where we can't build any colonies anyway. If however others think it's a good idea, chime in! If it were before the GL expired, to meet more civs and get more techs, would make more sense unless trying the Cuban Black Hole GL Gambit

Charis

EDIT - Response to Jaffa...
... duh!! Silly me...
Is "GL" an overloaded term or what?!?

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Yes, Library expires at Education. When does Lighthouse expire?

Lighthouse may still be useful if it allows us to meet earlier the other Civs we haven't met yet -- a bit of tech or communications brokering would do wonders for our finances.

--
Jaffa

(Great Leader expired at Education? Oh, damn. Guess all that new learnin' was just a bit too much for him ).

 

[Zed-F]

Ok, only had time for 3 turns (and this in a 5CC game! )

Traded contact & maps around, got a bit of gold & Engineering. How did our galley get over to China without revealing the map along the way? I'm confused... Our problem is not that we're behind in tech (we're not), it's that we've got way more units than we can afford and Persia is about to try and rape us. I guess we're about to see which of those problems is worse...

I envisioned this game would look a lot like an OCC except that we'd have 5 wonder-able cities instead of one. It has NOT turned out that way at all -- instead we've got 5 cities that are still working on relatively basic improvements in some cases, and a tough time grabbing more than a couple wonders from here on out due to lack of infrastructure and an economy that's shot all to heck even under Republic. Though I've been known to be overly pessimistic before, it seems to me we're in trouble here, people.

Did we misplay this or are we a victim of circumstance? Most likely a combination of both, but if anyone thinks we went drastically wrong somewhere I'd like to hear about it...

 

[Iester]

We got evicted. The persians DEMANDED that we get our lazy butts out of their territory. I complied.

Our galley ended up in china. What's so unusual about that?



I don't get it either.

Jester

 

[Sirian]

They'll have to suck the last dying breath out of the last Russian peasant in our last city to deter my optimism. With the 1.17f tech system, as soon as we make contact with the world, we can buy ALL the tech we're behind on for a song. Believe it or not, keeping that iron out of the hands of AI settlers is worth the gpt we're paying for the blockade. OCC you just sit back and play at the mercy of the AI's. Here, we're actually trying to control some territory, in some odd ways it can be harder.

As for why we don't have more wonders... cities too far from the capital, to put it bluntly. Corruption! Our GA went to waste building units, I'm afraid.

What went wrong? In 1.17f, contact with other civs is the UBER factor. All else pales to irrlevance next to that one point, and we sat too long without it. The GL was the right bet for 1.16f, but I'm starting to think that in 1.17 we'd have been better off going straight for Mapmaking, building the Lighthouse, trying desperately to make contact sooner, and also saving our Golden Age.

But don't fear. As long as we don't get conquered, those incense can buy us all kinds of favors. Just tough it out a little longer, you'll see it will be OK.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

I'm between you two in optimism. Full agreement with Sirian that if we don't get wiped out we'll be ok after a short bit. But... we're stuck alone on a continent with Persian and they're coming after us?! That makes the earlier "if" a big one

Got it...

Charis

-- EDIT --
Question: What on EARTH is that galley doing over in China -
it's not a scout it's a troop transport!!! Two spears?? Persia is about to start a war with us and 15% of our top defenders are seeing the Yellow River? Uh.... it'll take them forever just to get home - Disband them to help the economy?

 

[Zed-F]

Well, we're in contact now, and we're not behind on tech. However, we're on Emperor, where the AI has a substantial production advantage, and right now our best cities are no better than the AI's best cities. That will make it considerably harder to beat the AIs out for wonders, especially with Persia breathing down our necks.

*IF* we can survive Persia until the modern age, I suppose ultimately we won't be too badly off -- we should be able to buy our way to tech parity without too much trouble. But, for us to win a space race, we can't just be at tech parity, we have to have a tech and/or production advantage. Nuclear plants will be a good start, but will it be enough? Perhaps the fact that we won't have most of the middle ages wonders will not be the problem so much as that the AIs will have them. I haven't tried for a space race yet so I'm not sure how a close one plays out.
BTW, Tamaringrad is our best bet for Sistine right now, due to prebuilding Lighthouse, but it's stuck at size 6. I might be tempted to switch to Zedropolis and let Tamaringrad complete the Lighthouse and get back to basic improvements, but with war coming I don't think we'll likely be able to.

 

[Sirian]

Well... if somebody hadn't moved off the water...

- Sirian

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Okay, okay, next game I start I'll put our capital on a river if I have to walk across half a continent to get there

The two spearmen in the galley are from my turn -- they were stuck on a mountain out in the jungle, until the Persians booted them back into a culture hole, and the galley was the only way to rescue them.

Strategy-thought of the moment: how about, instead of sitting in our corner waiting for the Persians to move against us, we wait until we get Chivalry and then go after them? If we can wipe the Persians off our continent, and let all the other AIs settle in their normal patchwork fashion, none of them should have sufficient local production base to be much of a threat to us.

Or do I need a new supply of ?

--
Jaffa

 

[Sirian]

Well we can try to build middle age wonders... or we can build knights and attack Persia. I don't think we can do both. Persia may be aggressive, but with our ratio of units to cities, frankly I'd be shocked if they just marched on us in surprise attack fashion. Rather, more likely they will bully us... but um, we're broke!

I would vote to go for the wonders and infrastructure upgrades.


- Sirian

 

[Zed-F]

Well, Sirian, prepare to be shocked... when I left off they had a number of immortals in our territory and were moving more in. As I said, they looked like they were planning to try to work us over.

 

[Charis]

280 AD (0) - Ugh. Ugh!! This is one of those turns you think... "I wish
someone else were up!" The map shows Persia and China as biggest powers,
with us the only other civ on Persia's continent. Any sensible Xerces would
not rest until we were dead or vassalized.

Can war even be avoided? I think not, judging from the five immortals already
on the way toward Zedropolis. Can we "hole up" until they get tired of
beating on us. If we want every single square plundered of improvements
that's a swell option. What should we be building? Current items in
construction are Harbor, Courthouse, 2 Markets and Sistine. To support our
'relatively' big standing army, we need money. To expand our borders and
free up a dozen of the more useless units, we need to expand borders quicker.
So University and Troops are options. Abandoning wonder would cost 125
shields and hurt chances for culture victory significantly. No thanks.
Let's consider our opponents Sistine chances. Zimbabwe, Warwick, Canton,
Hastings, Teno don't seem a threat. Bombay, Shanghai, would be if only they
would mine. Hmmm... maybe our chances are quite strong. Even better, as I
look at the royal records, I see we prebuilt at least 1/3, so excellent,
it's our if Persia doesn't drag us down.

More than anything, Sirian's comments scare me:

Persia may be aggressive, but with our ratio of units to cities,
frankly I'd be shocked if they just marched on us in surprise attack fashion.

This has a real rbd2 'Egypt' flair to it

Buy the Persians off for 20 or 40 turns til we get tech for better troops??
My experience with Xman is that if he's coming after you, he's coming
after you. The galling thing is... he's polite. He just smiles and winks
and pats you on the back while the immortals come streaming down. RoP
just can't be done. The clown has no road to trade.

What Tech? We have 40 turns left so we're just staring. Current is Music
Theory which no one else has. Yet I fear a cascade loss on that with
everyone and their brother building both SunTzu and Sistine.
Six techs away from Mil Tradition, or if pressed for war NOW, Knights are
possible if we research Chivalry. What a waste though if not needed - alas,
we can't well afford that. Astronomy would head us to Coper and Newton.
Invention would let us hole up indefinitely, except... do we (or Persia)
have any gunpowder?? Well that's something I would sure like to know soon.
(No iron online yet for us, which must be intentional so it doesn't disappear)
Other civs? China, India, Zulu have Astronomy. (Er... not Cavs, Cossacks,
even better.)

Well... Invention path leaves all options open. If we want Back we can prebuild
it anyway.

Here's an odd move. What if we land those settlers - I see no
space with no culture borders, would we get 'backed up' clear home doing
that? Worth trying, they're useless there, can't make it home, and the
savings in upkeep costs if we end up disbanding can pay to rush a new one.

290 AD (1) - "The Persians declare War!!"

If it weren't for the prediction above this would be chilling. Instead I
chuckled. But then... I'm chilled again. Eep!! That stray worker pile was
too much temptation for him. I was hoping to let him finish the mine in one
turn then bring him home. (Doh, truly wishful thinking they would not)

310 to 320 -
Here and next turn it's slow as they're not really massed yet. We win a few
and lose a few, shift one or two horses closer to the front lines of Zedropolis
and Jestograd. One horse engages a lone spear and dies 8-\
Persia starts Art of War (cough, they seem to have the basics down ok!)

330 AD (5) - Reconnect the iron, we need those Spears to be Pikes in the
biggest way! (Should probably have stopped my irrigation and done this a
turn earlier). I count nine immortals in the area.

350 AD (7) - Pikes online, and Zed can produce one every 2 turns (until every
thing around us is plundered.)

360 AD (8) - On their turn, an immortal going against a spearman made elite
last turn leads to...

A GREAT LEADER!! Ivan the Terrible!!

 

[Charis]

No less than *EIGHT* immortals impaled themselves on the defenses of
Jestrograd!!?? wow! Besides the GL, they made the Pikeman elite, whacked
everyone down to 1-2 hp, and even got our horse to defend and win. We
did lose one pike. After several minor weedy choices this turn, it's clear...
it's better to be lucky than good!
(Interestingly, I think they would have been heading toward Zedropolis
had not the workers lured them east to Jestrograd. I prefer them there,
because from Zedrograd they can go around and threaten other cities.

Aztecs join the Sistine race, in other news. The top tech civs, China and
India, have banking now in addition to Astro. China and Aztecs a little
annoyed with us. (Due to weakness??) Someday when we have cash, we'll set
up embassies with someone else besides Persia 8-\

370 AD (9) - Persians complete Great Lighthouse in Arbela. Aztecs begin
Sistine? Did I misread last turn? (or confuse my notes) I hope that's not a
cascade. No (other) cascade notices. Two spears land next to Tamarinagrad
off boats. No offense units? We shift a few units to there. Cyrilla enters
the fray, picking off a lone spear with a horse (aka future Cossack).

380 AD (10) - Chinese are building Leo. We defend three immortals vs Jestro.

As good a time as any for a handoff, this will go another ten rounds for
sure! I've moved 3 Pikes and the Leader within range of Jestrograd.

*IF* you want to have an army defending the city next turn you can
(if careful about orders! Leader to town, build army, step out on road
towards pikes one step, have all three pikes take 2 steps on road to
army, load, then army steps back in city. Any other way doesn't work!)
Building Heroic epic is culture, although I hope not to fight enough to
see another leader

*IF* we want Sistine for sure, and a great shot at another wonder, turn
that leader around, switch Jaff to SunTzu and hurry the Sistine in Charistroika.
The three pikes will continue alone to Jestrograd. With one other coming
per two turns, they can (???) hold out a while I hope. Currently 12
immortals in the area. At any time, half are moving up to mountain to
attack and half are running back to barracks to heal.

I've been running 1 scientist and 0% sci to have upgrade money. Just now
switched to 10% because Invention got cheaper. If you need more,cash go
back to scientist and/or entertainer.

The two spears are fortified in no-mans-land in central asia. I would
disband and save 2 gpt, but up to next leader.

This is the new leaders call, but if folks have thoughts... speak up!

Jaffa
Jester
Zed
Charis
Cyrene <<<< up (lmao! Cy, you always get fun turns!!)
Sirian << on deck

Good luck!
Charis

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Originally posted by Charis
Abandoning wonder would cost 125
shields and hurt chances for culture victory significantly.

Actually, it wouldn't. Cultural victory is disabled

Enabled victories: spaceship, conquest, domination.

*IF* you want to have an army defending the city next turn you can
(if careful about orders! Leader to town, build army, step out on road
towards pikes one step, have all three pikes take 2 steps on road to
army, load, then army steps back in city. Any other way doesn't work!)

Ummm? I thought armies could only be loaded in town? Or is that something else they changed in the last patch?

--
Jaffa

 

[Charis]

> Actually, it wouldn't. Cultural victory is disabled
> Enabled victories: spaceship, conquest, domination.

Ah... ya, we'll dominate That one and conquest are
in for Persia's sake, eh? Spaceship?? Oh goodie, this will
be a hoot, if we live that long!

> Ummm? I thought armies could only be loaded in town? Or is
> that something else they changed in the last patch?

Don't know about earlier vers, but I've done it for sure in 1.17, loaded an army out of town. However you cannot convert a leader to an army in town, hence my odd instructions! Leader has move 3 and can get to town and become an army with 2/3 of his move left, so road in and road back into town JUST make it.

They've shown almost no interest except minor harrassment and love to come against Jestro, so if they continue that idea, an army with about two other vet pikes in town make it almost impregnable (yay!!) (Would they defeat the equivalent 5 pikes?)

Charis

 

[Cyrene]

Ouch.

The good news—no cities lost.

The bad news—everything else .

Takeover turn: Used leader for Sistine. I didn’t think an army of Pikes was going to accomplish much. Set Jaffaville on Shih Tsu Art of Kibble as placeholder for Leo. OR our tombstone…

390. Carnage in Jester-town. Every Immortal won. If they would have had another unit handy it would have been a 4CC.

400. Istakhr tries to revolt to us! Zut! ZUT alors! This is the Persian base for the entire assault, and their healing city. Losing this would cripple the assault! AND I CAN NOT ACCEPT IT! ^@#^@#$ ^%$^%$! Goat felching imbibers of donkey piss! I curse variantism in general, and myself for getting into these sorts of games. Ah well. Looks like about a dozen Immortals heading for a big party at the sack of Jesterville, and a few spearman heading down the other coast towards Cyrilla. I’d better grab the tactical initiative and see if I can short-circuit the AI. I start grabbing horsies and flinging them into the fray. We take and raze Jinjin in the south, and I start two into the interior of Persia towards Zohack. Let’s see what Xman thinks of that…

410. The immortals veer off from Jesterville and head into our interior. This is NOT what I had in mind. I dial up the X-man. For peace, all he wants is Jestrograd. I don’t think so. Crap. Oh well, might as well play it out. Send first 2 horsies to the city gates of Zohak, and start the rest north out of Jestrograd towards Istahir. Roll them dice.

420. AI stumbles. X-man shuffles troops around without really advancing or retreating. I decide this is working. Zohak is guarded by Pikes. Oops. I veer off further north. Send my last two horsies after the spears advancing on Cyrilla.

430. Xerxes blinks. An immortal takes on the eastern horsies, all the rest of the troops but spears retreat back into interior to regroup against our Powerful (cough, pitiful) assault force. Eastern horsies take out wounded immortal, then have to pull back because they are wounded badly. Cyrilla relief kills a Spearman. Western duo plunges north hoping to lead Immortals on wild goose chase.

440. X-man brings up fresh Immortals and cuts off our two eastern horsemen. Uh oh. I try to pull them out. Cyrilla relief whacks the another Persian Spearman, and our territory is now free of all Persians.

450. Immortals kill a Horseman in the jungle, but the second one wins! Shocking. All Persians still retreating chasing lone horse. The western diversion went so well, I regroup eastern horsies and prepare to send them out again.

460. Bummer. Xman turns entire assualt force back south. War weariness starts to kick in.

470. 4 of our cities kick into unrest due to war weariness (I actually saw Jaffa-town coming and headed it off as it was the wonder city). The Immortals are spread instead of stacked on the east, so I pull the Eastern horsemen out and send them to join up with the west in case the next leader wants to do another goose chase in the west where there is more room.

480. Immortals close in.

Ok. You have 16 Immortals and 4 spearmen bearing down on us. Our two front cities have 4 Pikes apiece and a couple of odds and ends. We also have 6 horsemen left healed up and ready to go, and we ARE up to 13 Pikes, so we aren’t exactly roadkill, depending on the prng. 4 (sigh) of our 5 cities are in the red because of war weariness, and the wonder city is yellow. Sigh. We are running a –9 per turn deficit (against only 22 gold—eeek) to bring Invention in in two turns to flip Tama-town over to Leos (which might be moot anyways—other civs have been busy beavers—check the f7).

Sirian—I have NO strong feelings about anything on this one-except good luck, you are gonna need it . I hope you can sort out our cities, this was the best I could do—I was just trying to keep them out of disorder and I knew a better player was due in 2 turns . You still have a turn or two to shuffle troops before the next wave hits—none of the Pikes has moved yet so you can move them on the continuation. I don’t know if Xerxes will bite on another horseman diversion, but I do know you know what you are doing, so I’m not going to granny you with unwanted advice.

You know, some times in war you just hate to turn the game over to the next guy—you really want to finish what you started. This is NOT one of those times. 8-0.

Have fun.

--Cy



Jaffa << on deck
Jester
Zed Charis
Cyrene
Sirian <<<< up