RBE3 - This Space Available For Rent
- Thread starter Jaffa Tamarin
- Start date
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
croald, can we hear some word from you? It's been a couple of days now; if you're too busy to get in 10 turns at the moment just let us know and we'll get you the next time around. 
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Sorry to hear that croald. 
Jaffa is up next in the rotation.
Jaffa is up next in the rotation.
Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 570
Okay, I got it.
Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 570
0) 360AD Trade 55gpt to France for Gunpowder.
Trade Gunpowder+150g to Germany for Education.
France now has Astronomy and Music Theory visible.
England and Japan sign alliance vs India.
1) 370AD Send workers to hook up our iron and saltpeter (one source, outside Hangchow).
2) 380AD A musketeer is standing on our saltpeter
Babylon and Japan sign alliance vs India.
4) 400AD Iron and saltepeter connected. We blow a huge wad of cash upgrading to Riders and Musketmen.
5) 410AD Trade 64gpt to France for Banking (we can't afford Astronomy).
We tell Joan to remove her troops from our territory. And she does. Heh.
England wants an alliance vs India. We decline.
6) 420AD We ask Joan to remove her troops from our territory. Again. This time she declares war
We capture Chartres. And lose six riders in so doing
Buy an alliance vs France with England. 22gpt.
Buy an alliance vs France with Germany for Banking (we also get furs, WM, 25g).
Kill some musketeers outside Nanking.
We attack Rheims. Our riders finally remember they have a retreat option, but we don't have enough in range to take the city. Rheims is left with a 1hp top defender, which of course will heal (and now be elite) for next turn. Drat.
French troops land outside Chengdu.
7) 430AD Assault of Rheims abandoned. Our riders withdraw to heal. Kill some more musketeers and knights outside Nanking.
A swordsman attacks Chengdu and kills our musketman
8) 440AD We attack Besancon, and again run out of riders before we can take the city.
Round up some troops to defend Chengdu (which only has warriors left). The French swordsman attacks again, and this time our musketman kills him.
A French knight attacks Beijing and kills our musketman there.
Babylon and Japan sign alliance vs France.
9) 450AD Pick off French units exposed in our territory.
England builds Leonardo's Workshop. France builds Bach's Cathedral.
10) 460AD Another assault on Besancon is foiled by the PRNG, and a shortage of riders.
460AD
Trade Gunpowder+150g to Germany for Education.
France now has Astronomy and Music Theory visible.
England and Japan sign alliance vs India.
1) 370AD Send workers to hook up our iron and saltpeter (one source, outside Hangchow).
2) 380AD A musketeer is standing on our saltpeter
Babylon and Japan sign alliance vs India.
4) 400AD Iron and saltepeter connected. We blow a huge wad of cash upgrading to Riders and Musketmen.
5) 410AD Trade 64gpt to France for Banking (we can't afford Astronomy).
We tell Joan to remove her troops from our territory. And she does. Heh.
England wants an alliance vs India. We decline.
6) 420AD We ask Joan to remove her troops from our territory. Again. This time she declares war
We capture Chartres. And lose six riders in so doing
Buy an alliance vs France with England. 22gpt.
Buy an alliance vs France with Germany for Banking (we also get furs, WM, 25g).
Kill some musketeers outside Nanking.
We attack Rheims. Our riders finally remember they have a retreat option, but we don't have enough in range to take the city. Rheims is left with a 1hp top defender, which of course will heal (and now be elite) for next turn. Drat.
French troops land outside Chengdu.
7) 430AD Assault of Rheims abandoned. Our riders withdraw to heal. Kill some more musketeers and knights outside Nanking.
A swordsman attacks Chengdu and kills our musketman
8) 440AD We attack Besancon, and again run out of riders before we can take the city.
Round up some troops to defend Chengdu (which only has warriors left). The French swordsman attacks again, and this time our musketman kills him.
A French knight attacks Beijing and kills our musketman there.
Babylon and Japan sign alliance vs France.
9) 450AD Pick off French units exposed in our territory.
England builds Leonardo's Workshop. France builds Bach's Cathedral.
10) 460AD Another assault on Besancon is foiled by the PRNG, and a shortage of riders.
460AD
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Well, I see some good news and bad news coming out of this war. The bad news is that we've been screwed by the RNG and have only captured one city as yet from the French. Hopefully that will change. The good news is that France is at war with every other civ except Persia, and that means that they are cut off from getting any luxuries from the other civs. Take a look at how Babylon fared in Sirian and T-Hawk's games for Epic9 if you want to see how the AI fares when cut off from trading with anyone else (not pretty). To be blunt, Joanie's cities are going to be full of entertainers and their government will certainly fall to Monarchy sooner rather than later. The best news of all though is that France only has ONE source of saltpeter, and it is sitting very close to our borders. If we can take 2 or 3 cities in the southeast, their source of musketeers will be cut off for good. We're locked into 15 or so more turns of war regardless, so hopefully Urugharakh will be able to make some headway. If we can somehow get to cavalry, it would all be over for Joan (fat chance of that happening though)
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Yes, we knew going in that this would not be an easy war. Without any alies for Joan though we will prevail!
I haven't looked at the save but I am wondering if we should consider mobilization? I think our infrastructure is pretty good already. This is not something I have done before, but since we are already in an golden age (we are right?), locked into 15 turns of war and are attacking large cities at strength 4 against strength 4 defenders (and this without artillery!) ... what do y'all think? Is mobilization cumulative with a GA? Is it somehow unhonorable? I guess the one major drawback is not being able to rush temples/libraries in our new french territories.
I haven't looked at the save but I am wondering if we should consider mobilization? I think our infrastructure is pretty good already. This is not something I have done before, but since we are already in an golden age (we are right?), locked into 15 turns of war and are attacking large cities at strength 4 against strength 4 defenders (and this without artillery!) ... what do y'all think? Is mobilization cumulative with a GA? Is it somehow unhonorable? I guess the one major drawback is not being able to rush temples/libraries in our new french territories.
Urugharakh
Orc Chieftain
Got it. I'll try playing tonight, but please don't count on it. I have to get up early tomorrow. I'll definitely post my result tomorrow.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
No hurries Urugharakh; I've got plenty of work to keep myself busy as well.
Mobilization is, in fact, cumulative with the golden age shield bonus, so that we would be getting 2 extra shields on each tile already producing one. Only problem is that we, uh, can't mobilize until we get the tech Nationalism.
So unless we magically enter the industrial age in the next few turns that possibility is out.
Mobilization is, in fact, cumulative with the golden age shield bonus, so that we would be getting 2 extra shields on each tile already producing one. Only problem is that we, uh, can't mobilize until we get the tech Nationalism.
So unless we magically enter the industrial age in the next few turns that possibility is out.Urugharakh
Orc Chieftain
Bad luck for your work, Sulla, I finished my part this night.
(0) Happieness: War weariness already started.
Diplomacy: We can buy 3 english workers, I refuse. We can buy an indian worker, I refuse.
Economy: Switch Nanking from musket to rider, which will finish next turn. Switch Canton to sword, hurry and then switch back to rider. With additional mm this saves a turn for only 44 g.
Troops inspection: Suffle a few muskets around for better city protection at france border. Upgrade our last horse.
Interturn: Hammurabi wants alliance against Gandhi. I decline. Our musket near Shanghai beats 2 french knights in a row and promotes to elite. Thats the way to handle RNGs.
(1) 470 AD: No attack on our southern front. I want attacking with all our available troops in that area. I kill a lone musket in the north without loss. I prepare an attack on Rheims gathering troops there.
Interturn: India and France assigned MA agaist Germany. Otto asked for MA against Gandhi, I decline. We loose 2 muskets to french knights.
(2) 480 AD: Kill 3 knights and loose 2 riders.
Interturn: Japan and France signed peace. Persia and Japan signed MA against India. Orleans completes Smith.
(3) 490 AD: We free Besancon at the cost of 2 riders.
Interturn: Tokugawa demands tribut. I pay 91 gold an territory map. We need our trade routes.
(4) 500 AD: I buy spices from Liz for 319 gold. I cancel our wine for silks treaty with Tokugawa. Buy Astronomie from Gandhi for 1018 gold. Unfortunately only Joanie has navigation. So we still can't trade with Hammurabi and Xerxes. Buy chemistry from Gandhi for 79 gpt and 18 gold. Sell chemistry to Liz for Economics, 16 gpt and 104 gold. Sell Economics to Otto for printing press and music theory. Sell silks to Gandhi for 115 gold. Sell chemistry and wines to Tokugawa for 155 gold and silks. Unfortunately we need a 10% lux rate.
Interturn: Xerxes wants MA against Gandhi ... France and Germany signed peace. This causes the loss of our furs and hence a few riots. Damn bastards.
(5) 510 AD This turn was my RNG horror. We lost 4 riders in the attempt of killing 3 servely damaged knights near Chartes. So my plans for Rheims have to wait. Gandhi has navigation. I buy it for 20 gpt and 521 gold. Sell Navigation to Liz for 30 gpt and 122 gold. Sell Engineering to Hammurabi for dyes, wm and all his 2 gold. Sell Printing Press to Xerxes for incense, wm and all his 1 gold. Sell Navigation to Otto for furs and 1 gold. We own 7 luxuries now and can keep up our war for a couple of turns now. We can lower the lux rate to zero.
Interturn: Xerxes wants MA against Gandhi ... France and England signed peace.
(6) 520 AD: Our glorious armies captured Rouen. Joanie lacks salpeter until she builds a harbour in her northeastern island. She offers 20 gpt for peace but I reject. Remember our allies betrayed us, so we are free to make peace.
Interturn: Chartes flipps to France, we loose 3 units.
(7) 530 AD: We take Chartes back.
(8) 540 AD: We got our first leader!!! We can grab Copernicus in Beijing. We can get Magellan, though I vote against it. We can form an army. I personally like cav armies, but we don't own military tradition, while a rider army doesn't appeal to me. We can save him for FP, which is maybe the best. I have only 2 turns to play, so I leave the final decision to Sulla. I renegotiate our wine deal with Liz and get 10 gpt and 12 g instead of 5 gpt for our wines.
(9) 550 AD: Only few battles.
(10) 560 AD: Our glorious armies freed Cherbourg under serve losses.
Canton, Hangchow and Shanghai can save shields when rushing to swords and then change to riders, while Xinjian can do the same with longbows. Hangchow is currently on swords for this reason, so don't forget rushing and changing it next turn.
We should be very careful with units in captured cities. The culture flip chance is still very high. So we either need lots of units in them or only 2-3 to avoid losses. Chartes can only be attacked by a single knight next turn. So you should leave the Riders on the mountain beside it in case of a culture flip.
Gandhi suffered very bad RNG rolls lately. I hope he holds on himself for the next few turns until our deals with hin expire. Otherwise we may have serve problems later on. That was not likely 5 turns ago, when I made my deals. He was still in a very good shape during that time. He lost badly to Tokugawa although he has salpeter and lots of cash. So I assume his republic crashed due to war weariness. Tokugawa is already in monarchy.
Joanie now offers 32 gpt for peace. I would still reject it. I do like at least Rheims before making peace and better grab the furs and/or some wonders. Remember we will loose a good amount of cities to culture flip and have no option of getting them back after we made peace. So I would vote for continuing the war at least until our golden age expires and maybe even further. Joanie is still the tech leader and has discovered Physics this turn.
Good luck Sulla.
0560AD
(0) Happieness: War weariness already started.
Diplomacy: We can buy 3 english workers, I refuse. We can buy an indian worker, I refuse.
Economy: Switch Nanking from musket to rider, which will finish next turn. Switch Canton to sword, hurry and then switch back to rider. With additional mm this saves a turn for only 44 g.
Troops inspection: Suffle a few muskets around for better city protection at france border. Upgrade our last horse.
Interturn: Hammurabi wants alliance against Gandhi. I decline. Our musket near Shanghai beats 2 french knights in a row and promotes to elite. Thats the way to handle RNGs
.(1) 470 AD: No attack on our southern front. I want attacking with all our available troops in that area. I kill a lone musket in the north without loss. I prepare an attack on Rheims gathering troops there.
Interturn: India and France assigned MA agaist Germany. Otto asked for MA against Gandhi, I decline. We loose 2 muskets to french knights.
(2) 480 AD: Kill 3 knights and loose 2 riders.
Interturn: Japan and France signed peace. Persia and Japan signed MA against India. Orleans completes Smith.
(3) 490 AD: We free Besancon at the cost of 2 riders.
Interturn: Tokugawa demands tribut. I pay 91 gold an territory map. We need our trade routes.
(4) 500 AD: I buy spices from Liz for 319 gold. I cancel our wine for silks treaty with Tokugawa. Buy Astronomie from Gandhi for 1018 gold. Unfortunately only Joanie has navigation. So we still can't trade with Hammurabi and Xerxes. Buy chemistry from Gandhi for 79 gpt and 18 gold. Sell chemistry to Liz for Economics, 16 gpt and 104 gold. Sell Economics to Otto for printing press and music theory. Sell silks to Gandhi for 115 gold. Sell chemistry and wines to Tokugawa for 155 gold and silks. Unfortunately we need a 10% lux rate.
Interturn: Xerxes wants MA against Gandhi ... France and Germany signed peace. This causes the loss of our furs and hence a few riots. Damn bastards.
(5) 510 AD This turn was my RNG horror. We lost 4 riders in the attempt of killing 3 servely damaged knights near Chartes. So my plans for Rheims have to wait. Gandhi has navigation. I buy it for 20 gpt and 521 gold. Sell Navigation to Liz for 30 gpt and 122 gold. Sell Engineering to Hammurabi for dyes, wm and all his 2 gold. Sell Printing Press to Xerxes for incense, wm and all his 1 gold. Sell Navigation to Otto for furs and 1 gold. We own 7 luxuries now and can keep up our war for a couple of turns now. We can lower the lux rate to zero.
Interturn: Xerxes wants MA against Gandhi ... France and England signed peace.
(6) 520 AD: Our glorious armies captured Rouen. Joanie lacks salpeter until she builds a harbour in her northeastern island. She offers 20 gpt for peace but I reject. Remember our allies betrayed us, so we are free to make peace.
Interturn: Chartes flipps to France, we loose 3 units.
(7) 530 AD: We take Chartes back.
(8) 540 AD: We got our first leader!!! We can grab Copernicus in Beijing. We can get Magellan, though I vote against it. We can form an army. I personally like cav armies, but we don't own military tradition, while a rider army doesn't appeal to me. We can save him for FP, which is maybe the best. I have only 2 turns to play, so I leave the final decision to Sulla. I renegotiate our wine deal with Liz and get 10 gpt and 12 g instead of 5 gpt for our wines.
(9) 550 AD: Only few battles.
(10) 560 AD: Our glorious armies freed Cherbourg under serve losses.
Canton, Hangchow and Shanghai can save shields when rushing to swords and then change to riders, while Xinjian can do the same with longbows. Hangchow is currently on swords for this reason, so don't forget rushing and changing it next turn.
We should be very careful with units in captured cities. The culture flip chance is still very high. So we either need lots of units in them or only 2-3 to avoid losses. Chartes can only be attacked by a single knight next turn. So you should leave the Riders on the mountain beside it in case of a culture flip.
Gandhi suffered very bad RNG rolls lately. I hope he holds on himself for the next few turns until our deals with hin expire. Otherwise we may have serve problems later on. That was not likely 5 turns ago, when I made my deals. He was still in a very good shape during that time. He lost badly to Tokugawa although he has salpeter and lots of cash. So I assume his republic crashed due to war weariness. Tokugawa is already in monarchy.
Joanie now offers 32 gpt for peace. I would still reject it. I do like at least Rheims before making peace and better grab the furs and/or some wonders. Remember we will loose a good amount of cities to culture flip and have no option of getting them back after we made peace. So I would vote for continuing the war at least until our golden age expires and maybe even further. Joanie is still the tech leader and has discovered Physics this turn.
Good luck Sulla.
0560AD
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Wow - the game is clearly in a very complex state. I also plan to continue fighting, since all of those cities will simply flip away from us if we don't push France's capital further away. I've never seen so many resistors in every city - is our culture really that bad? Probably compared to theirs it is. Well, we are slowly advancing and I see no reason not to continue fighting until France gets rifles. If we are lucky, the other civs will research Military Tradition and help us out a bundle. They can't build any more muskets, after all...
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
(0) 560AD What a messy situation we're in. We've made gains against France but under the Honorable ruleset (no razing or abandoning of cities) we won't be able to keep them due to culture flipping. The only real solution is to press on until we (hopefully) kick France off the continent, or until our republic collapses. Fortunately we've cut off France's only saltpeter supply, and the F4 screen shows that they are not trading for any (only active trade is with Persia, who has no excess saltpeter). My first decision is for our leader; I consider using him to rush the Forbidden Palace, but none of the newly conquered cities are secure enough for that. I could rush it in a city next to our palace... but at only 200 shields, we could build the thing there in short order. No good wonders are available either, so... the best option is to form an army of riders and open up the possibility of the Heroic Epic and Military Academy. I want to strike in the southeast first and move north from there to establish one unified front against France instead of 2; Riders shuffled slightly to that effect. Hoping for no flips, I end the first turn.
(1) 570AD A French knight kills a Rider, though it goes down to 1hp in the process. Chartres flips back to France as well; they get a pike as defender, so they definitely do not have saltpeter. WTH?! France somehow has TWO pikes in Chartres?! How is that possible? That is.. not fair. It didn't flip until our turn... Looks like the AI is using "scroll-ahead" exploits here. We recapture Chartres anyway however; at least it is down to size 4 now... Our army kills the 1hp French knight and we can now build the Heroic Epic (that will be a post-war project). In the south I pillage France's former saltpeter source so that in case Rouen flips back they won't be able to upgrade pikes.
(2) 580AD A French knight again kills a Rider and is reduced to 1hp in the process. They also land three knights by ship on the mountain next to Chartres - I had to move the units on it off in order to retake the flipped city *sigh* At least no flips this turn. I save a turn on a Rider by rushing 10 shields on a sword in Canton; I will proceed to do this over and over again on my turn in cities which are getting 20ish shields/turn. Building up attack force in southeast. I also notice that Bensancon is NOT in resistance, so I begin rushing workers there to eliminate the French nationals.
(3) 590AD Bad, bad luck in the north. French knight takes NINE hp off of our Rider army before doing the graceful thing and dying. Another knight attacks and kills a fortied vet musket (in a city, no less... where's the random number love?) Two more knights move onto the mountain next to Chartres as well. I hate that mountain!!!
One good thing about this warfare is that the tech race is almost stopped cold; France was the one pushing it forward. Situation is great in the south, dire in the north. Let's see what happens next.
(4) 600AD Terrible news - France retakes Chartres. And not even a bad RNG turn, they just pulled EIGHT knights out of nowhere to attack it. They have a frightening amount of units up there. Our Rider army killed two knights before dying... War weariness is off the charts, so we have to make peace this turn or go to Monarchy - yeah right, like we would be able to survive 7 or 8 turns of anarchy while at war. Not likely. So it's time to press for as much as we can get on THIS turn and then sign peace. Amiens is captured in the south (loosely defended with two regular muskets). Chartres is retaken in the north from France as well. Avignon comes to within a 2hp musket from falling to our forces, but it turns out that 10 Riders apparently can't kill 2 muskets and a pike.
Having stretched as far as we can go, we now have to make peace from the war weariness. Hmmm - we can get either a lot of money from France or a useless colony. I opt for the money, since it is unlikely we can prevent a French colony from flipping away from us. Our approval rating goes from 45% to 83% immediately. Now the tough part: trying to keep the captured cities from flipping away from us. That will occupy the remainder of my turn. Most of our core cities switch to banks to get the benefit of the last few turns of our Golden Age.
(5) 610AD Gandhi comes calling asking for a military alliance against Babylon. We decline... Physics has been discovered by civs other than France, and remarkably India has it. (?) They have the best price, so we buy it for 1389g. I expect to be able to broker, but it turns out that both England and Germany cannot offer even 1gpt for it (figures...) I sell to England for 250g, Germany can't cough up nearly enough to get it. A diplomatic mistake on my part - sorry guys. France has Magnetism but not Metallurgy or Theory of Gravity. Looks like they are 1 tech ahead at this point.
(6) 620AD Resistance ends in every French city and we get a palace expansion!
Please, please, PLEASE hold out a few more turns until I can rush all the foreign nationals out with workers and settlers!
(7) 630AD Our civ's Golden Age comes to a close. Bensancon is our first 100% safe city from flips - no tiles in its 21-space radius controlled by France and only one foreign national in the city, which has two units suppressing it. 0% chance to flip. If the cities around it flip though... Cherbourg is the only one really worrying me at the moment. 6 foreign nationals and it juts right up against the massive culture of Rheims; I've got a bunch of units in there but still not enough for 100% suppression. Please hold out on me until I can rush settler from there.
(8) 640AD We survive another turn without losing a city.
(9) 650AD France starts Newton's so they must have Theory of Gravity. France is two techs ahead (3 if you count Democracy, which I don't) and everyone else is on par with us or behind.
(10) 660AD Our first bank completes in Beijing, we start the Heroic Epic there. Rouen is now safe as well, at size 1 with no pressure from French culture, and with two units in it. Leave two units in Rouen and Bencanson at all times!
Notes: Our war was somewhat successful; if we had just gotten Rheims in the opening turns we would be in excellent shape. As it is, that city juts into our territory badly and needs to be taken into account with the culture flips. Chartres has 7 tiles of its 21-tile radius controlled by the French and 1 French national; it won't be safe until there are 16 units in it. I suggest rushing cheap swords or producing them out of Beijing until we have that many. Chartres' cultural radius should expand in 2 turns and reclaim 3 tiles from France; if that is the case, we will only need 10 units to keep it safe. Next turn the cultural radius of Cherbourg and Amiens will expand and they will both be at size 1. So we will need 8 units in Amiens to safeguard a flip and 8 in Cherbourg as well (I did click next turn to see the border expand, so we at least won't lose any next turn). Priority number one is keeping the cities that we fought so hard to gain, then after that to building up our infrastructure for the industrial age. In summary, here are the number of units we need for each city to keep them safe:
Chartres: 10 units (after border expansion)
Cherbourg: 8 units
Amiens: 8 units
Rouen: 2 units
Bensancon: 2 units
So long as we maintain these forces there at all costs, the cities cannot flip away from us and they will remain a valuable part of our civ. Unless of course I have misintepreted the flipping formula in some way; you need (foreign nationals + tiles controlled by other civ) * 2 to completely supress a flip, right? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
And if France gives us the opportunity, we will finish the job against them with tanks...
Side note: we want to build the Forbidden Palace immediately. I suggest Xinjian, which will let us move the palace at a later date. Also, the Heroic Epic in Beijing will probably turn into a Wall Street prebuild, since we don't need the Epic at the moment.
RBE3 660AD
(1) 570AD A French knight kills a Rider, though it goes down to 1hp in the process. Chartres flips back to France as well; they get a pike as defender, so they definitely do not have saltpeter. WTH?! France somehow has TWO pikes in Chartres?! How is that possible? That is.. not fair. It didn't flip until our turn... Looks like the AI is using "scroll-ahead" exploits here. We recapture Chartres anyway however; at least it is down to size 4 now... Our army kills the 1hp French knight and we can now build the Heroic Epic (that will be a post-war project). In the south I pillage France's former saltpeter source so that in case Rouen flips back they won't be able to upgrade pikes.
(2) 580AD A French knight again kills a Rider and is reduced to 1hp in the process. They also land three knights by ship on the mountain next to Chartres - I had to move the units on it off in order to retake the flipped city *sigh* At least no flips this turn. I save a turn on a Rider by rushing 10 shields on a sword in Canton; I will proceed to do this over and over again on my turn in cities which are getting 20ish shields/turn. Building up attack force in southeast. I also notice that Bensancon is NOT in resistance, so I begin rushing workers there to eliminate the French nationals.
(3) 590AD Bad, bad luck in the north. French knight takes NINE hp off of our Rider army before doing the graceful thing and dying. Another knight attacks and kills a fortied vet musket (in a city, no less... where's the random number love?) Two more knights move onto the mountain next to Chartres as well. I hate that mountain!!!
One good thing about this warfare is that the tech race is almost stopped cold; France was the one pushing it forward. Situation is great in the south, dire in the north. Let's see what happens next. (4) 600AD Terrible news - France retakes Chartres. And not even a bad RNG turn, they just pulled EIGHT knights out of nowhere to attack it. They have a frightening amount of units up there. Our Rider army killed two knights before dying... War weariness is off the charts, so we have to make peace this turn or go to Monarchy - yeah right, like we would be able to survive 7 or 8 turns of anarchy while at war. Not likely. So it's time to press for as much as we can get on THIS turn and then sign peace. Amiens is captured in the south (loosely defended with two regular muskets). Chartres is retaken in the north from France as well. Avignon comes to within a 2hp musket from falling to our forces, but it turns out that 10 Riders apparently can't kill 2 muskets and a pike.
Having stretched as far as we can go, we now have to make peace from the war weariness. Hmmm - we can get either a lot of money from France or a useless colony. I opt for the money, since it is unlikely we can prevent a French colony from flipping away from us. Our approval rating goes from 45% to 83% immediately. Now the tough part: trying to keep the captured cities from flipping away from us. That will occupy the remainder of my turn. Most of our core cities switch to banks to get the benefit of the last few turns of our Golden Age. (5) 610AD Gandhi comes calling asking for a military alliance against Babylon. We decline... Physics has been discovered by civs other than France, and remarkably India has it. (?) They have the best price, so we buy it for 1389g. I expect to be able to broker, but it turns out that both England and Germany cannot offer even 1gpt for it (figures...) I sell to England for 250g, Germany can't cough up nearly enough to get it. A diplomatic mistake on my part - sorry guys. France has Magnetism but not Metallurgy or Theory of Gravity. Looks like they are 1 tech ahead at this point.
(6) 620AD Resistance ends in every French city and we get a palace expansion!
Please, please, PLEASE hold out a few more turns until I can rush all the foreign nationals out with workers and settlers!(7) 630AD Our civ's Golden Age comes to a close. Bensancon is our first 100% safe city from flips - no tiles in its 21-space radius controlled by France and only one foreign national in the city, which has two units suppressing it. 0% chance to flip. If the cities around it flip though... Cherbourg is the only one really worrying me at the moment. 6 foreign nationals and it juts right up against the massive culture of Rheims; I've got a bunch of units in there but still not enough for 100% suppression. Please hold out on me until I can rush settler from there.
(8) 640AD We survive another turn without losing a city.
(9) 650AD France starts Newton's so they must have Theory of Gravity. France is two techs ahead (3 if you count Democracy, which I don't) and everyone else is on par with us or behind.
(10) 660AD Our first bank completes in Beijing, we start the Heroic Epic there. Rouen is now safe as well, at size 1 with no pressure from French culture, and with two units in it. Leave two units in Rouen and Bencanson at all times!
Notes: Our war was somewhat successful; if we had just gotten Rheims in the opening turns we would be in excellent shape. As it is, that city juts into our territory badly and needs to be taken into account with the culture flips. Chartres has 7 tiles of its 21-tile radius controlled by the French and 1 French national; it won't be safe until there are 16 units in it. I suggest rushing cheap swords or producing them out of Beijing until we have that many. Chartres' cultural radius should expand in 2 turns and reclaim 3 tiles from France; if that is the case, we will only need 10 units to keep it safe. Next turn the cultural radius of Cherbourg and Amiens will expand and they will both be at size 1. So we will need 8 units in Amiens to safeguard a flip and 8 in Cherbourg as well (I did click next turn to see the border expand, so we at least won't lose any next turn). Priority number one is keeping the cities that we fought so hard to gain, then after that to building up our infrastructure for the industrial age. In summary, here are the number of units we need for each city to keep them safe:
Chartres: 10 units (after border expansion)
Cherbourg: 8 units
Amiens: 8 units
Rouen: 2 units
Bensancon: 2 units
So long as we maintain these forces there at all costs, the cities cannot flip away from us and they will remain a valuable part of our civ. Unless of course I have misintepreted the flipping formula in some way; you need (foreign nationals + tiles controlled by other civ) * 2 to completely supress a flip, right? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
And if France gives us the opportunity, we will finish the job against them with tanks...
Side note: we want to build the Forbidden Palace immediately. I suggest Xinjian, which will let us move the palace at a later date. Also, the Heroic Epic in Beijing will probably turn into a Wall Street prebuild, since we don't need the Epic at the moment. RBE3 660AD
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
And our map... It will looks somewhat different in two turns when the borders for Chartres, Cherbourg, and Amiens expand. I still wish we had been able to capture Rheims though...
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
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- Sep 19, 2002
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- 3,352
Well, the war went OK. We did some damage to France and gained a few cities for ourselves. A definite shame about Avignon too, as there are furs there and it is a geographically powerfull spot.
My guess is that France will stay out of our territory now
All in all the game will probably be more interesting with us not having kicked France off our continent, that would have given us quite a large boost.
My guess is that France will stay out of our territory now
All in all the game will probably be more interesting with us not having kicked France off our continent, that would have given us quite a large boost.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
There are number of factors that influence culture flipping, including foreign nationals, foreign control of city tiles, relative distance of capitals, relative overall civ cultures, whether the city has any resistors, whether the city is in disorder, whether the city is in WLTKD, and so on. But as far as I can recall, the only way to completely suppress a culture flip is to count up the foreign nationals, count up the tiles controlled by the foreign civ, add them together and double the number. The other factors just make the flip more or less likely when a chance for one exists.
EDIT: I went and looked up the actual formula, with bad news for us:
the full formula (this is from Sorenson, who is responsible for this programming):
P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D
where:
P = probability that it will flip this turn
F = # foreigners, with resistors counting double
T = # working tiles under foreign control
Cc = 2 if foreign civ has more local culture than you, 1 otherwise
H = .5 for WLTKD, 2 for disorder, 1 otherwise
Cte = Total culture of the foreign civ
Cty = Total culture of your civ
G = # garrison units
D = factor based on relative distance to capitals
Now reorganizing this gives the required garrison as:
G = (F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty)
As you can see there is a nice set of extra factors there. Now when you take a city Cc is likely to be 2 for a long while. And then there is the culture ratio. And this is a true ratio so it could be 1.1:1, 2:1, 5:1 depending on how much culture each of you has
The national culture factor is probably the reason why some seem to have no problem with culture flips and others do. Since if you have strong national culture, this value might be approaching 1/2, which can keep the garrison down at a 1:1 ratio. However, if conversely the AI civ in question has double your culture, you are going to need 4 units for every foreigner and tile to prevent a flip.
This means we're going to need more units than what I said in my summary... a LOT more units. I don't know if we'll be able to produce the requisite numbers anytime soon. We're still going to be gambling for all intents and purposes on whether the cities stay ours.
EDIT: I went and looked up the actual formula, with bad news for us:
the full formula (this is from Sorenson, who is responsible for this programming):
P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D
where:
P = probability that it will flip this turn
F = # foreigners, with resistors counting double
T = # working tiles under foreign control
Cc = 2 if foreign civ has more local culture than you, 1 otherwise
H = .5 for WLTKD, 2 for disorder, 1 otherwise
Cte = Total culture of the foreign civ
Cty = Total culture of your civ
G = # garrison units
D = factor based on relative distance to capitals
Now reorganizing this gives the required garrison as:
G = (F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty)
As you can see there is a nice set of extra factors there. Now when you take a city Cc is likely to be 2 for a long while. And then there is the culture ratio. And this is a true ratio so it could be 1.1:1, 2:1, 5:1 depending on how much culture each of you has
The national culture factor is probably the reason why some seem to have no problem with culture flips and others do. Since if you have strong national culture, this value might be approaching 1/2, which can keep the garrison down at a 1:1 ratio. However, if conversely the AI civ in question has double your culture, you are going to need 4 units for every foreigner and tile to prevent a flip.
This means we're going to need more units than what I said in my summary... a LOT more units. I don't know if we'll be able to produce the requisite numbers anytime soon. We're still going to be gambling for all intents and purposes on whether the cities stay ours.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
This makes intuitive sense to me. I rarely have problems with flips in my solo games but I tend to be a builder. I would have built libraries in all our cities by now, libraries are powerful culture and not very expensive. Of course this is also why I often have gpt problems, too much maintenance.
None of this tells us what the actual P will be. That must be built into the D factor (e.g. what would D be for a city at equal distance from two capitals?). I can live with 0.1% P but not 10% P, I don't need 0% P as nothing in life is certain.
Maybe we should consider building some libraries quick to improve our national culture. Also a rushed library in a just taken city could reduce Cc to 1 in some cases. One could even trash the foreign civs culture buildings in our new cities if that would make the difference (is that what local culture means?). That seems to me to be a big reduction (50%).
I really hate when cities flip during peace time. It makes an honorable leader have unhonorable thoughts!
None of this tells us what the actual P will be. That must be built into the D factor (e.g. what would D be for a city at equal distance from two capitals?). I can live with 0.1% P but not 10% P, I don't need 0% P as nothing in life is certain.
Maybe we should consider building some libraries quick to improve our national culture. Also a rushed library in a just taken city could reduce Cc to 1 in some cases. One could even trash the foreign civs culture buildings in our new cities if that would make the difference (is that what local culture means?). That seems to me to be a big reduction (50%).
I really hate when cities flip during peace time. It makes an honorable leader have unhonorable thoughts!
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Just a reminder that croald is up again in the rotation (yes, already ) If you don't feel that you can get to the game in the next 24 - 48 hours, please let us know so the game can go on.
) If you don't feel that you can get to the game in the next 24 - 48 hours, please let us know so the game can go on.Similar threads
