RBE3 - This Space Available For Rent

[Gothmog]

I just looked into what local culture means in the culture flipping formula and heres the quote from Dan Magaha @ FIRAXIS:

"3) I didn't even know this, but apparently each city has a "memory" and remembers the total amount of culture generated by any civ who has ever occupied it. This is the 3rd most important factor, because if the "attacking" civ has more historical culture in the city than the "defender", the chance of that city flipping to the attacker are doubled. This is one reason that conquered cities often flip back to their previous owners."

I thought it was culture per turn, but I guess it refers to total historically generated culture. Thus, building temples of our own and/or destroying ones left by our enemies will not help.

I am guessing that most of you knew that already but I didn't.

 

[Urugharakh]

Originally posted by Gothmog
I didn't even know this, but apparently each city has a "memory" and remembers the total amount of culture generated by any civ who has ever occupied it. This is the 3rd most important factor, because if the "attacking" civ has more historical culture in the city than the "defender", the chance of that city flipping to the attacker are doubled. This is one reason that conquered cities often flip back to their previous owners."

I thought it was culture per turn, but I guess it refers to total historically generated culture. Thus, building temples of our own and/or destroying ones left by our enemies will not help.

Building temples and libaries will help fighting culture flip probabilities. As you can read from the formula Sulla provided and from your cited influence any culture building in our empire will lessen the (their total culture)/(our total culture) factor, while a culture building in the endangeded city will additionaly fight the local culture factor. Once the captured city aquires more of our culture than it aquired foreign culture during its history, we are on the save side with respect to this factor.

 

[Sirian]

The culture "memory" of a city is a big deal. In the original release version, a city SLOT had culture memory that was revived if the city was refounded. For example, raze Bombay with 1029 culture memory, India founds a new city named Bombay, it STARTED with 1029 culture memory, no matter where it was founded.

That's one bug I am very glad they fixed.

Even so, culture memory is a huge deal, especially combined with the distance ratios. A civ's most culturally strong cities tend to be the ones closest to its capital, so they are very difficult to hold on to. This was even more true back before garrison effectiveness was increased.

Those who remember or read all the way back to RBD SG5, and our Glorious M'eers, may remember that that was the point at which the RB crew figured out when to raze vs when to try to keep. Jaffa razed the heart of India, IIRC, and the one city we tried to keep there is the one that flipped on me and I then razed it.

Now at least you CAN put a large enough garrison in any city to hold on to it. That's much better than it used to be, although it also means a lot fewer AI cities flip to the player, as the AI's are now trained to suppress flip chance for their cities, too.


- Sirian

 

[Gothmog]

Re Urugharakh: Yes I was advocating building libraries to improve our global culture (see my post).

What I was expounding on was the local culture issue. I had thought that it was culture per turn and that temples built by the other culture added to their "local" culture. Thus "trashing" those buildings. Given that they have thousands of years of "local" culture in those cities, we will not catch up for thousands of years (e.g. never due to the thousand year bonuses). Also given that it is a switch type mode (e.g. who has more local culture) and not a ratio, this will not help us in the short term. That is all I was recounting.

It is still a good idea to build culture buildings in our new cities since it will help us hold on to more of the 21 critical squares.

Well, its been more than 24 hours for an "I got it" from croald. How long do we wait. Looking back to the first page there were no hard limits put on the timetables but I think that 24/48 is pretty standard. I am ready to go and could post by tomorrow (if we reach consensus in the next few hours).

Jaffa, you have the ultimate say IMO. Do you want to lay down some guidelines?

 

[croald]

Sorry, guys. I have to withdraw.

 

[Gothmog]

croald, sorry to see you go - hopefully you'll be back!

Consider this an 'I got it' post. I'll try to play tonight.

I guess we could use another player about now.

 

[Gothmog]

Well it was a tense ending. Here's the details.

preturn - switch Beijing, Shanghai, Nanking, and Chengdu to library, Besancon to worker. Max gold production in Beijing, trade around WM for a few gp. India doesn't have Iron, Horses, or Saltpeter. Lucky for them War Elephants don't take any resources.

670 AD - Shanghai builds library starts bank, switches production to max shields. Besancon builds worker starts library. Tsingtao builds harbor starts library. Xinjian builds bank starts library. Cherbourg builds settler starts library. Babs are building Copernicus. Rush swordsmen in Chartres and Amiens. Notice our road trippin Galley up by the north pole!

680 AD - Chartres and Amiens finish swordsmen and start libraries.

690 AD - Hangchow finishes bank starts (can you guess?) … library. The French are building Shakespeare's. Switch Chartres and Rouen to worker.

700 AD - Beijing produces library starts Heroic Epic - MM to maximize shields - due in 8 turns losing 2 food per turn. Rouen finishes worker starts courthouse? We lost our spices, don't really need them anyway. Rush library in Amiens.

710 AD - Nanking builds library starts bank. Xinjian builds library starts Copernicus's as a prebuild for WallStreet. Amiens builds library starts granary. English starts Shakespeare's. We lost our furs, dies, and incense. Hooked up our extra saltpeter, trade to Germany for furs. Cancel Wines for silks deal with Japan trade to bab for Dyes. Persia wants banking for incense, I decline. I sell our map around for a few gp. Hire a clown in Shanghai and Xinjian and we are OK. Add settler to Chengdu and change from library back to marketplace, rush. Rush bank in Shanghai.

720 AD - The Japs destroyed the Indians. A French cavalry enters our territory. Shanghai bank to cathedral. Canton bank to musket. Chengdu marketplace to library. Persians start Copernicus's. Xinjian Copernicus's to Wall Street.

730 AD - More French troops enter our territory. Uh Oh. Chartres builds worker starts library. English are building Newtons. Decide to trade with France for a gpt deal. Trade WM and 90 gpt for ToG. Demand they leave our territory, and they do! Move all workers near their borders back into cities. Move a rider down to Beijing.

740 AD - The Japs and Germans start Shakespeare's. The French move their troops back into our territory. I give Joan a WM as tribute and again demand she remove her troops. Again she does. I rush the musket in Canton.

750 AD - French back again. Canton finishes musket starts musket. Hangchow library to musket. Chengdu swaps library to musket and rushes. Again I demand she remove her troops and again she does. So the dance continues. Her SOD is now 2 muskets, 2 longbow, 4 knights, and a piker. I move one Rider from Cherbourg to Xinjian.

760 AD - Joanie's SOD grows (another musket, longbow, and piker) and enters our territory. Still in range of our riders in Chartres. Chengdu musket to musket. Rush musket in Canton and Hangchow. Again Joanie agrees to leave our territory, what is she up to?

Next up should think about another gpt deal for another tech. Our map is worth a few gp again. Have fun!

Here is the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe3_760ad.zip

Think honorable thoughts.

 

[Sullla]

Ummm.... the war weariness we had from our previous war with Joan has NOT had time to dissipate; it will reappear in full force if we find ourselves at war with the French again. We don't want another war at this time! It will only cause massive unrest and probably collapse our government. If Joanie wants to go through our territory to sneak attack someone, I say let her. It will only be to our benefit if Joan is caught up in another war in the south.

 

[Sirian]

Deity RoP (TM)

 

[Zed-F]

Wonder if they are going after something else on the far side of you? Maybe you should tell her to use boats

 

[Sullla]

I love that picture Sirian. So when is "To The Bitter End" Part 3 coming out?

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Got it, but probably not until Monday.

 

[Gothmog]

Actually I was more worried about a sneak attack on us! It would be fine with me if she went after someone else. I figured that I would rather know if she was going to attack us so I would have time to move troops and such. With all our troops on culture flip duty at the moment, our core is pretty weak, and was even weaker when she moved in (like nonexistant). Once we get a few more muskets in place I agree that we should let her go south if she wants. I would even go with a ROP.

IMO my only option was to ask her to leave or move lots of troops towards our core. I've been sneak attacked too many times, and by civ's that I haden't been at war with recently.

Being an honorable leader war is only a last resort.

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Sorry, not going to be able to get to this today. Please skip me this round.

 

[Sullla]

Sorry to hear that Jaffa. There's been a lot of drops in this game of late, so hopefully Urugharak can get us back on track.

 

[Urugharakh]

Originally posted by Sullla
Sorry to hear that Jaffa. There's been a lot of drops in this game of late, so hopefully Urugharak can get us back on track.

Here it is:

(0) Economy: Swap Xinjian from Wall Street to FP. Swap Beijing from Heroic Epic to Wall Street. We don't need the Epic now, while we can use the FP and will be happy about the 4 turn gain on Wall Street. I change a few unnecessary clowns to taxmen. I change a few muskets with already full shield box to riders.

(1) 770 AD: We have almost all tiles completely improved. So I add acouple of our native workers to some of our cities. They can be rebuild with only 1 turn production out of a couple of our cities, when we need them for rails. The shields and cash gained until then is worth considerable more than this one turn. I renew our wine treaty with Liz for a 2 gpt more.

Interturn: France declared war on Japan. Thats where all those units in our territory where heading for.

(2) 780 AD: ...

Interturn: Hammurabi joined the attack on Tokugawa

(3) 790 AD: Liz discovered Magnetism. Buy it from Joanie for 60 gpt and 544 g. Trade it together with 166 g to Tokugawa for Metallurgy. We enter industrial age. Nobody knows Military Tradition. Only Joanie knows Nationalism. I trade Metallurgy to Otto for 17 gpt and 34 g, all he could afford.

Interturn: Xerxes and Otto joined the attack on Tokugawa.

(4) 800 AD: Otto is now in industrial age. Surely Joanie gave him Magnetism for his Japan war.

Interturn: Joanie offers extending our peace treaty. Does our honorable empire has a chance not to accept?

(5) 810 AD: Trade Chemistry to Xerxes for incense, WM, 6 gpt and 17 gold. I fire our non needed taxmen.

Interturn: Babylon and Persia signed peace.

(6) 820 AD: Beijing finished Wall Street and starts on Heroic Epic, which may be switched to University. Xinjian finished FP and starts on Cathedral. I buy a german worker.

(7) 830 AD: MM Shanghai for more cash without production loss. Joanie discovered Military Tradition.

Interturn: Hammurabi asked for MA against Tokugawa...

(8) 840 AD: Shanghai starts on our first University. Liz and Tokugawa discovered Military Tradition. I buy it from Joanie for 35 gpt and 730 g. I would prefer buying it from someone else, but we can't afford the difference currently. This way we at least save lots of cash in case of a sneak attack.

(9) 850 AD: I start upgrading a few riders to cavs.

Interturn: Tokugawa demands tribut. I took some time before giving in. I'm sure he would declare war otherwise. We are not afraid of his units, but loosing trade possibilities and possible war weariness is more disadvantageous than paying 91 gold. Does anybody know a precise war wearieness formula?

(10) 860 AD: ...

We should prepare for Industrialization and Scientific Method in time. I definitely want ToE, which is my favourite wonder in deity games right after the Great Libary. We should have a palace prebuild in Xinjian ready for it. This way we can grap Hoover in Beijing and get the most important wonder in the industrial age. The techadvance is slow due to the Japan wars, but we should be prepared for a change. This results in Nationalism having very low priority at the moment. We don't need rifles immediately and can trade for the tech once we are forced to war and need it. Slowly upgrading our riders to cavs should do for the moment. I don't think Joanie will sneak attack us while she fights Tokugawa.

AD0860

 

[Sullla]

Got it. Palace prebuild will start immediately - we can do without Suffrage if need be, but we really need to get TOE, which will leverage into any techs we miss and Hoover.

 

[Gothmog]

Re Urugharakh: I don't know a precise WW formula but I've done a bit of WW study and there are two things that are relevant here. First, if another civ declares war on you you actually get negative WW. In democracy this is not enough to help you at all, but in republic it typically acts as a free luxury. Then if you make peace with that civ your people actually get unhappy! I started a thread about WW and someone mentioned that they got many WLKDs after being attacked. I then confirmed this one time when I lost a luxury because the offending civ and I were trading. No happiness problems. They were on another continent and we didn't battle and they wouldn't talk to me. Finally (about 15 turns later) they sent a few troops over, I killed them and the other civ decided to 'give peace a chance'. On my turn I had like 5 cities go into revolt! I reloaded just to check and indeed if I didn't negotiate with them no revolts.

The most important factors for WW are the number of expatriots (this is why losing a city is very bad, but retaking it is very good) and having your troops in enemy territory and enemy troops in your territory, and they have to be there at the end of the turn. So if you kill any troops in your territory on your turn, and only move into enemy territory if you are sure to take a city, an honorable war can actually be beneficial in Republic. I have not noticed any benefits from sucessful attacks or defence, unless you can free some expatriots.

Another thing is that in Democracy it seems that your WW increases just from time at war, I have not seen this in Republic.

 

[Gothmog]

P.S. I started to study WW because as I noted before I am a bit of a nut for democracy. It just fits well with my (usually honorable) style of play.

Well done Urugharakh!

 

[Sirian]

Weariness is not much affected (if at all) by troops in one another's territory. My Epic Thirteen had masses of troops in enemy territory for long, long stretches, under weariness-frantic democracy, and no weariness appeared. Even pillaging lands with land troops did not add to weariness.

What led to weariness was combat: fighting. Bombardment in particular causes weariness to shoot up. That may be only misses, or could be misses and hits -- and whether or not the target is inside your borders MAY be relevant.

I've NEVER been hit with more weariness more quickly than in Epic Twelve. If you lose several cities and a pack of units and dish out nothing in return, your representative government is almost surely going to collapse. It's more than ex-patriots coming under the thumb. Military defeat is the worst thing for weariness. This includes heavy loss of units being thrown at fortified enemy cities. Artillery usage increases weariness, but not as bad as failing to use artillery resulting in heavier losses to ground units.

It could even be that losses in the form of lost hit points, not just dead units, is a factor, but I can't be sure.

The problem with weariness measurement is that there is a hidden sum total somewhere, yet weariness only shows up civwide in stages. Stage one, stage two, stage three. You can see what kinds of actions result in faster movement through the stages, but there is just no way short of Jarulf-style code inspection (Diablo community reference) to get any precise details.


- Sirian