RBE3 - This Space Available For Rent

[Gothmog]

Sirian: I agree that it is hard to study WW due to the 'sum total' factor you mention, it is a rate effect. I discuss this in some detail in the thread I started - War Weariness Details in Strategy and Tips.

However, I have definitely gotten WW from having enemy troops in my territory, actually only one troop - he was harming no one and doing nothing. I had been gaining WW at about 1 per 5 turns. Then this one troop snuck over my border (on a small island distant from my core) and the next turn - increase in WW after only 2 turns. If I reloaded and killed him immediately - back to WW increases every 5 turns. In the thread there are similar stories.

As far as bombardment, I think it is a big factor. Especially if you kill off civilians. It is not something I do alot.

When I have had a city taken and been able to retake it immediately I have no negative WW effects other than at the beginning of that turn.

When I take an enemy city I still get WW increases at the same rate as I had previously.

I have not noted troop losses producing WW. It may be that there is a sum effect (amount of WW proportional to the difference of troops lost to enemy troops lost). Since I am allmost always killing more than I kill, this may not have affected me. I am no warmonger so you probably have more experience with this point.

Anyway, I am sure you have played many more games than I, but I must dissagree with you especially on the troops in enemy territory point. I am not sure about your Epic Thirteen, maybe you were counteracting the WW through some other means - could it be that Sufferage counteracts some types of WW specifically? If you would like to continue this discussion or provide some examples that are particularly telling please do so in the thread I mention above.

 

[Sullla]

(0) 860AD I look around the game just to see what's up. We've got a huge cash inflow compared to what I last saw, improved culture production, and as yet no French cities have flipped on us. We've been lucky so far, at least. Xinjian already has 91 shields saved up towards a cathedral which is great, it goes on a palace prebuild for what will hopefully be TOE. Beijing, working on Heroic Epic, is switched to the Military Academy, also as a prebuild just so we have another city out there that can complete a wonder. Things could get interesting if someone researches Shakespeare, for example. Ideally, then I would break the cascade by putting Shakespeare in Beijing, so that's the motivation behind that one. For that matter... diplomatically we can get Democracy from Persia Physics and Metallurgy, so I make the trade to open us up to Free Artistry in the event that we need to build Shakespeare. I also get a ROP with Persia to send Xerxes from Annoyed to Polite. Aha! The other civs DO have Shakespeare, but no one has started work on it. France will sell it to us for only WM + 10g - what the... ahhh, I see that England has already finished Shakespeare. Heh. Some there on my part. But now Sid doesn't say we're technologically backwards anymore, and for the cost of only 10g. I also traded WMs around for a small profit. Only wonder being produced right now is Magellan in a bunch of small coastal towns that hopefully won't present a problem.

(1) 870AD DISASTER!!!

Who merged FRENCH workers into Chengdu?! I am VERY pissed off at this. I reloaded after the turn and looked in the city. There were two FRENCH citizens in Chengdu. Who did this? Why would you EVER open yourself up to a flip my merging foreign nationals into a city when you KNOW we are in a bigtime cultural struggle with France. Now we have lost our iron city, France has another city on our other border, and our income is down 25gpt. Just an absolute disaster for us. The sheer stupidity of this is just beyond me... Chengdu was 100% safe from a flip to France; it could flip to England but not France. Just... OK, I'm not going to dwell on it anymore. But this is the biggest move by someone else I've seen in a LONG time. OK, the good news is that there is a good chance of Chengdu flipping back to us, but we can't count on it by any means. Looks like we're gonna have to trade for iron to build rails.

(2) 880AD Japan and Persia sign peace. Our cities continue building things; our workers have very little to do.

(3) 890AD France has Steam Power this turn, but it will cost us everything we have to get it. I think we'll wait a turn or two for the price to come down to a reasonable level. French units continue to ignore our borders and walk through. In the south, Japan has absorbed India and is cutting Germany to pieces, but they have gone into anarchy this turn and are probably collapsing into communism (if it's been discovered).

(4) 900AD Library completes in Bensancon, university in Hangchow. We will probably start our own research up at some point in time in the late industrial age, so having these buildings will definitely help. France is still the only one with Steam Power and it's too expensive to buy.

(5) 910AD Canton finishes a cathedral and starts on a library. Ahhh, now England also has Steam Power and the price has gone from 2700g + 230gpt to 2700g + 25gpt. Now that's tech devaluation! I first cancel the saltpeter for furs deal we had with Germany; Bis goes to annoyed (I also don't want to be shipping a resource to someone who might get eliminated soon). We get Steam Power from France for saltpeter + 1694g + 27gpt. The 1694g is exactly enough to keep us over 1000g. Not surprisingly given our starting location, we have no coal. England has two though not hooked up... I'll sign a ROP with them and get our workers moving pronto. Now it's time to broker Steam Power. We get back our furs + iron + WM + 23g + 43gpt from Germany for Steam Power. I've never seen what happes to our reputation if another civ gets eliminated and desprives US of a resource, but I can't imagine that reflecting badly on our civ. We'll see though. Then 45gpt + 47g from Tokugawa for Steam Power, for a major profit to us. THAT's how you stay caught up in tech on Deity. Liz will sign a straight-up ROP with us, so I make the deal and send in our workers. We'll have coal ready by the end of my turn.

(6) 920AD Ha ha ha! Joan offers US a ROP/MPP deal! You're in several wars Joanie, so we'll pass... I checked France to see if they had any coal and guess what? There's one under Rheims. I HATE that city! I guess there's a reason why the French settled it so fast on Jaffa's first turn. We have gone back to being "technologically backwards" so either Espoinage or Communism was discovered by the AI civs. With Nationalism remaining insanely expensive, it doesn't matter to us.

(7) 930AD We get 90gpt back from a previous deal, greatly increasing our income. Not much to spend it on at the moment, but rushing factories could happen in the future. Workers are in English territory en route to coal sources. No new techs that we can see discovered this turn. Gaaah! England has two longbows sitting on one of its coal sources! Stupid AI programming! Move so we can hook it up for you. If we can't get coal, we're going to be in bad shape. OK, so our plan to get coal from England has been thwarted. BUT, there are other coal sources out there. Persia has two, but they must be trading one away because they have no extra sources. But wait! Babylon has two sources already hooked up - they just aren't in the industrial age yet. So I will gift them into the Industrial Age and then buy coal from them, thereby making the gracious and getting us coal! Not too shabby - except that it makes Babylon a lot stronger. Nothing I can do about though; we NEED rails. Hammurabi gets TOG and Steam Power for free and then we get his coal source for 480g. He is now gracious with us, and his freebie Nationalism tech has devalued it a bit further. Our workers now have something to do and go to town with rails.

(8) (9) 940-950AD Not much to report. Worker that were in England are moving back into our territory, not going to be too many rails laid this turn. No Industrialization yet either.

(10) 960AD No new techs again. A few more rails laid down.

Summary: One devastating culture flip hurts us, but we are in good shape overall. We are easily keeping up with the tech pace, due to the wars going on, and I see no reason why we won't get all of the wonders from here on out. Our prebuilds only last a couple more turns, so I'm really hoping that Industrialization is discovered before then (or we lose a bunch of shields). Above all else, do NOT let the Palace be completed in Xinjian. That is a prebuild; if the palace finishes there, we lose our Forbidden Palace! NOT a good idea. Ideally, Industrialization is discovered by France in the next few turns. We switch Beijing to Suffrage and use our stored shields in Xinjian to build a factory. Then we use our excess cash to rush a coal plant in Xinjian right after that and begin prebuilding for TOE. The prebuild will have to be carefully timed though since we have only a 400-shield palace and 400-shield Military Academy to prebuild with. TOE is only 600 shields, so if we time it right it's a no brainer. Then we get Hoover's and broker Atomic Theory for all the techs we've missed plus truckloads of cash. Sit back and relax until the Modern Era, where we make sure to get the UN and win an easy diplo victory. Should be smooth sailing unless we get sneak-attacked, and with rails + artillery we can stop anything. Just don't panic and demand that France leave our territory; they could rape us right now if they wanted to. But with cool heads and good planning, we shouldn't have much trouble winning now.

RBE3 960AD

 

[Urugharakh]

French workers in Chengdu??? My first impression was a flaw in during my turns. I merged workers into Chendu and WAS so sure they where our own. But you never know about your slips until it is too late. Then I checked the save files and found 660 AD no french workers, 760 AD two french workers, the same as 860 AD. Seems Gothmog was careless, but I admit, I could have made the same slip without noticeing it until it was too late.

 

[Gothmog]

Yes I must have done this. I don't remember now why, other than we had a bunch of workers doing nothing, I was rushing workers up along our border, and Chengdu could use the population. I was trying to merge nationals but it didn't work out that way. I am sorry to have pissed you off so Sullla. I must admit I am very surprized it flipped, given the factors it seems that this was a very low probability event. Even so I take full responsibility, major weed on my part. I wonder if the two land squares in our 21 owned by england contributed to this flip? Otherwise I would have thought a garrason of 2 would be enough, with the distance from the capital counteracting most of the culture imbalance. Again sorry to all.

 

[Sullla]

Well it was a low probability event but even so that just wasn't a good idea. Besides, we get more use out of the foreign workers by keeping them as workers, since they cost us no gold to support. I overreacted a bit, but I write the summaries as I'm playing and that's what was going through my mind at the time. It just seemed a waste to create an opportunity for a flip where none had existed before, that's all. Losing our iron resource was the big blow. Also of note: Chengdu went from size 11 to size 6 shortly after it flipped. The AI civ may have been consciously trying to starve it down to a smaller size to lower the flip risk. It's also possible though that with a reduced radius of tiles they were unable to maintain the food needed to keep it at that size. If the AI understands that it should remove foreign nationals from captured cities, then it really is doing wonders to reduce the chance of a flip. Regardless, you are up next Gothmog. Good luck setting up Theory of Evolution.

 

[Sirian]

Be afraid of the culture power of Deity AI's. Be very, very afraid.

 

[Gothmog]

I am now very afraid, also I am glad I was not actually present with Sullla when he found out! The only time previously that I have had a problem with flips was while at war in core cities of the other civ. I guess this is in part due to my builder style, and the fact that I don't get to play that many games so low probability events don't happen as much. This is definitely going into my cost/benefit analysis in the future.

Well consider this my 'I got it' I wasn't able to get it last night due to my spotty conection at home.

 

[Gothmog]

Preturn - diplo check, sell map, become aware of current deals. Wow 364 gpt! Hurry courthouse in Chartres (44 gp) and start WLKD to increase shields at cost of growth. This will also reduce the chance of another devastating flip.

970 AD - Chartres -> marketplace. Tsingtao - worker -> university, Hangchow - worker -> cathedral. People celebrate the return of Gothmog - build penthouse for palace.
Diplo check reveals that Persia, Japan, and France all now have medicine, everyone else still Nationalism. Xinjian -> university (148 shields lost). I decide to build MA in Beijing rather than waste 160 shields converting to university.

980 AD - Shanghai - university -> heroic epic. Canton - library -> university, Nanking university -> cathedral, Xinjian university -> cathedral. I consider starting research of our own (we could get industry in 12 turns) but decline, someone will get Industry before too long. I consider all of our core cities on prebuilds for factories.
Bad news here - Amines flips to the Frence - we lose a lot of troops. I start WLKD in Cherborg and Bescanson to gain shields and furthur reduce flip chance.

990 AD - Beijing MA -> university. Railnet growing.

1000 AD - english clearing jungle with coal on it, start towards their other source.

1010 AD - lost incense deal. Reneg for 350 gp + WM to keep Persia happy and continue WLKDs. Tech situation still the same.

1020 AD - Persia wants MPP + 3gpt. I give him WM for TM. Most of core now on railnet.

1030 AD - Bescanson grows and loses WLKD. Put entertainers back to work.

1040 AD - Cherbourg granary -> marketplace (I thought I switched this earlier, oh well). Got 35 gpt back from somewhere. Worker finally arrives at coal in England. All cities now on railnet.

1050 AD - England wants to renegotiate wines deal. Only offers 7 gp (not gpt), we'll keep them for now. Yay, Persia starts Suffrage - France has Industry too. Joan wants 3150, but I give Persia 3500 + WM instead. Switch to factories everywhere. Industry to Germany for Medicine + WM + 14 gp. Industry to the Babs for Sanatation + WM + 11 gpt + 20 gp. 1000 gp + 50 gpt + Industry + Medicine to Liz for Nationalism, then sell her Sanatation for 900 gp. Japan has nothing to offer (1 gp), war has bled them dry I guess. We are all caught up in tech.

1060 AD - Babs and English start suffrage.

In all the trading in 1050 I forgot to offer our wines around. I have never been in such a heated culture battle before (well not on the losing side at least), too bad we didn't cripple France earlier. I think honorable civs need more culture because they cannot gain in other ways as easily (If we had taken out england ...). But we are still doing fine - our economy is strong and we have lots of factories coming online during the next players turn (Jaffa ?)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe3_1060ad.zip

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Built factories and hospitals. One coal plant in Beijing. And more rails.

France discovered Electricity. I didn't want to buy Electricity at 2nd Civ price and then discover every one else was too broke to buy it off us. A few turns later the whole AI Civ pack (except Japan and Germany) had acquired Electricity. And Espionage and The Corporation. So we're now four techs behind (still missing Communism too). Feh.

Beijing is building Universal Suffrage, intended as a placeholder for ToE. If left to build Suffrage we will get it around five turns before Persia, but I think it likely the AIs will have discovered Scientific Method before Suffrage finishes. Could start a palace in Xinjian as a backup placeholder.

One possible problem. The French have a GL, currently crossing our territory on his way to France.

I didn't trade for any techs. If Germany manages to get hold of Electricity before we buy it, it will lower the price for us.

Our iron and coal deals expired. I got a new iron deal with France (for saltpeter, WM, 130g), and coal from Babylon (32gpt).

1160AD

 

[Sullla]

TOE is far more important than Suffrage. If we land that, we will quickly be caught up in tech plus pulling in 1000s of gold on top of that. Not to mention getting Hoover's in a walk. So in other words... be sure to get TOE! I'm pretty sure that Urugharak can handle that though.

 

[Urugharakh]

(0) We havo no ToE prebuild in Xinjian, only the Hoover prebuild in Beijing. Xinjin finished hospital last turn or a few turns ago. This should have been the coal plant as preparation for ToE. Looks like we have to build Hoover without reasonable prebuild.

Start blocking french leader. I don't care in case he rushes Suffrage, but I assume he'll do so with ToE.

Buy Electritity @5th for 2665 g. Joanie has Replaceable Parts.

(1) 1170 AD: Hurry Colloseum in Xinjan and switch to Coal plant.

(2) 1180 AD: Renew our wines for Dyes deal with Hammurabi under better conditions.

Interturn: Xerxes declares war on Hammurabi.

(3) 1190 AD: Joanie has Scientific Method and starts ToE

(4) 1200 AD: ...

(5) 1210 AD: Beijing would finish ToE next turn. So I buy SF from Joanie @2nd for 180 gpt and 1997 g. Beijing switched to ToE. Take the opportunity and trade SF around. Get Incense and Corporation from Xerxes (add 60 g to it). Replaceable parts from Liz for additional 16 gpt and 597 g. We have rubber right under Canton. Espianage 14 gpt and 49 g from Hammurabi. Tokugawa and Otto can't pay.

(6) 1220 AD: ToE is ours. Xinjan will complete Hoover in 7 turns.

Interturn: Liz signed AM against Hammurabi. Joanie and Hammurabi signed MA against Tokugawa.

(7) 1230 AD: ...

(8) 1240 AD: Joanie has Steel

(9) 1250 AD: Our rail network is complete. French leader gave up and retreated to Chendu.

(10) 1255 AD: ...

I did some tile arrangement for Beijing, Shanghai and Chartes. Please keep it, which should be easy because our workers have only pollution duties from now on. Beijing is at 60 shields/turn and maximized food until all tiles are worked. Shanghai is on growth every 2 turns, which should be changed after all tiles are worked. Chartes is on max shields and no growth, which should be keept until its cathedral is finished due to WLTK management.

Hoover will be finished in 3 turns. Its up to Sulla to gain max out of our tech lead then. After we finished our last infrastructure we should invest a bit into military. It would be too bad getting sneak attacked now with an almost won position.

If we are greedy, we can even try for Suffrage and Hoover, though I wouldn't risk Hoover to an accidental AI leader. We probably don't need the Suffrage. Depending on the tech pace the game might be over in 30 turns ...

AD1255

 

[Arizona_Steve]

I've been quiet of late, but have been getting better at this...

Yesterday I started an emperor level game. Current situation - about to enter the industrial age, no tech lead, but I have traded throughout the game to tech parity with the leading AIs, have control of three luxuries with a fourth about to be hooked up. Largest landmass. No real wars (Persia declared war, but they were halfway across the world and I sent Germany after them). I think the fact that I started with two cows and lots of grasslands helped... (no rivers though, and no free settlers from huts)

I have a couple of Deity games going too. Hopefully I will qualify soon.

 

[Sullla]

Arizona_Steve! Longtime no see! Did you notice the RBD23-style competition game I having running now with some relatively new players? It's been a while since we were playing on the RBD23b team with Sirian and LKendter. Good luck in your efforts to qualify for the RBE games.

This is also my "got it" post by the way. Atomic Theory should get us a boatload of money when I trade it around in a couple of turns, and I may have us start researching Radio. We can probably get it first thanks to TOE which would allow for another easy brokering opportunity.

 

[Sullla]

(0) 1255AD Diplo check shows that we can get a lot of dough for Atomic Theory; I'm considering brokering this turn since we still we be the only ones with Electronics. I rearrange some tiles to get the former French cities into WLTKD (since it halves the chance for a flip). Traded some maps around. OK, here we go: Atomic Theory to France for Steel + 20gpt + 17g. Steel to Persia for 135gpt + 156g. Steel + 135g to Babylon for Communism (and look at how fast the tech devalues!) An outdated Electricity to Germany for furs + 19g. Steel finally to England for gems + 128g + 3gpt. France is the only one with Atomic Theory; no one else can pay even close to full price for it. With the influx of luxuries I set the lux rate to 0% and fire our entertainers in we can maintain WLTKD everywhere. I consider researching Radio, but we can't get a good enough rate for it (18 turns even at -106gpt). I'll play it safe and continue to buy into techs. 12 muskets upgraded to infantry.

(1) 1260AD Lots of buildings complete across our cities. I set most of them to more infrastructure, with a mind to set any city finished with useful buildings onto artillery in the near future. A number of units upgraded, including turning that useless captured catapult into a very useful artillery.

(2) 1265AD Persia signs a MPP with France, and not surprisingly declares war on Japan right after that. Cities keep growing; a number of them are very low on shields at the moment since all of their tiles have been irrigated. France is clearly researching Electronics, since the prices has gone down the last two turns; better sell it to them now and get something for it. I figured we would probably want gold in lump sum form in case France attacks (just as all of our deals to them are in gpt), so the max I can get from Joanie is 5970g + 18gpt. That's a lot of cash! The only bad thing is that now Joanie seems to be pulling further away from the other AI civs... Only thing we can do though, as they get the tech regardless in two more turns. Heh, we now have 7561g to use in acquiring future techs.

(3) 1270AD Hoover Dam completes in Xinjian! Persia completes Suffrage the same turn. I sell off our unnecessary coal plants. Thanks to bankrupting France last turn, we now know their income: 328g appears on the diplo screen this turn.

(4) 1275AD Pollution strikes Shanghai, giving our workers something to do. Beijing and Hanchow are out of useful buildings to create, so they go over to artillery production. Japan can actually cough up some money this turn, so I sell them Communism for 46g + 17gpt. We want them in communism, after all. England can pay a reasonable, if somewhat undervalued price for Atomic Theory so I sell it to them for 104g + 66gpt. I do this because I have the feeling that Persia and Babylon are researching it right now at max rate and can't afford to pay a cent for it.

(5) 1280AD Xinjian has also finished building useful infrastructure and goes to artillery production. I won't feel safe until we have about 30 artillery; then France won't be able to hurt us at all. No tech opportunities present themselves this turn.

(6) 1285AD Our saltpeter deal runs out with France. That's OK with me since we don't need to build any more rails. Two artillery complete. Shanghai is now maxed out at size 17, so I use our workers to mine all of its tiles. We go from 34 shields to 57 shields, and a coal plant will complete there next turn. Beijing should be able to get more than 100 shields when it hits size 21.

(7) 1290AD More pollution outside Beijing. France, thanks to their MPP with Persia, declares war on Babylon. England now not only has Electronics, but has Refining too! I suspect a deal of some sort with Joanie. Ahhh, but look at this: Xerxes has Refining but not Atomic Theory! I send Atomic Theory to Persia for Refining, 3g, and a ROP to better our relations. As expected, X-man goes from Cautious to Polite. Then we send Refining to Babylon for Iron + 9g + 85gpt. We are incredibly wealthy! 10,018g + 649gpt. And that's with us still paying 228gpt to other civs! We do not have oil, though there is a source at Amiens which was ours until it flipped...

(8) 1295AD A number of artillery complete. Beijing rearranged to grow faster while still producing artillery at a rate of every 2 turns. France has Radio, but it will cost us 10,000g to get it. We'll pass on that one for now Joan. Hammurabi has a nice deal for us though: Atomic Theory to him for 117gpt.

(9) 1300AD I clean up a pollution tile - exciting.

(10) 1305AD Persia and Babylon sign a peace treaty. England comes calling for an alliance against Babylon - oooh, let's cut off the 150gpt they're sending us! Not likely. I've maxed out Xinjian and Hangchow on shields, since they cannot work any more tiles even if they keep growing. Bensancon and Cherbourg put back into WLTKD after their growth. Hammurabi manages to cough up 93gpt more for Electronics; I make this deal also in part because we WANT him researching a tech like Radio to devalue its cost for us. Any time the AIs spend researching techs we already have is bad; that's why I've been selling our freebie techs left and right. France remains the only one with Radio.


My goal was to turn the techs we got from TOE into a big cash advantage, and I think I've done that. We now have 11,800g and pull in 841gpt. We are one tech back of France and ahead of or tied with everyone else. Beijing is going to be the city to build the UN. Let it grow to size 20, then mine all of the tiles we can without it starving. Our largest prebuild is NOT the palace, it is Battlefield Medicine at 500 shields. DO NOT BUILD BATTLEFIELD MEDICINE! We need it for our UN prebuild in Beijing. I estimate that Beijing can get about 100 shields/turn when maxed out, so we should have no trouble getting the UN if we time the prebuild right. That will be the most crucial thing remaining in the game. For now, keep building artillery and infantry after that to make ourselves secure from attack. If we get desperately low on funds at the end of the game, we can always ask France to leave and cut our gpt payments to them when they declare war. But hopefully I've set us up with enough income to get the 6 techs we still need to win the game.

RBE3 1305AD

 

[Yndy]

Nice going guys.

You have a good chance at this one unlike RBE 2 which looks pretty bad. Very good trading. Nice going.

 

[Gothmog]

"Got it"

Will try to play tonight, but no promises.

 

[Sullla]

Nice going guys.

You have a good chance at this one unlike RBE 2 which looks pretty bad. Very good trading. Nice going.

Yeah, but don't forget that RBE2 started in a nearly impossible position, without room for even one ring of cities around their capital. The fact that they are still alive at ALL at this point is a testament to their playing skills. They've already killed the Zulus and defended against not one but two sneak attacks from their massive Egyptian neighbor. We here in RBE3 have had a considerable easier starting position and game as a whole. It would have been even easier without the Honorable restiction of course, but that's another story.

 

[Gothmog]

Well, I had to lead my legions of balrogs into battle against a horde of pumpkins last night. I will try to play tonight.

 

[Yndy]

Originally posted by Sullla


Yeah, but don't forget that RBE2 started in a nearly impossible position,

I agree.

 

[Gothmog]

Still having RL conflicts. I did play 4-5 turns last night - pretty boring stuff going on right now. The big excitement is that England and France now have combustion. England doesn't have radio yet and I could buy it from France for a little more than 10000 gp, then broker it to England for combustion. I decided that there is no advantage to having either right away and to wait a few more turns and check again. Any opinions? Better to broker now at 2nd civ prices, or just wait to buy and possibly lose brokering opportunity. It seems that we have bled most of the other civs dry.