RBE3 - This Space Available For Rent
- Thread starter Jaffa Tamarin
- Start date
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
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- 3,352
I decide to trade for Republic now while we can still broker it to England and India. First I trade France Ivory, Silk, 40 gp and 15 gpt for Republic. Then I trade India The Republic for Monotheism + 45 gp + WM, then I sell The Republic to England for 180 gp + WM. I also trade around WM's for another five or six gp. I revolt to Republic and we draw six turns of Anarchy, I've seen worse. I send a worker over to Chengdu to mine the bonus grassland and hook up the iron. I also enlist a few tax collectors to reduce the bleeding.
A number of turns pass in Anarchy and I move workers and MM cities. Liz calls up to trade WMs, being a good neighbor I oblige. The English and Germans start the Art of War (as if), France continues to use our territory as her doormat. Three new swordsmen wipe their feet on our land. France starts the Sistene and I see my first French pikeman.
410 BC we emerge from anarchy and the Chinese Republic is formed, long may she live! I push luxuries to 20% and put everyone to work. I go for feudalism at min science because I know the AI values this highly. Galley at Canton changed back to marketplace. In Republic we really need these. I also change Nankin and Tsingtao from granary to marketplace, these will not complete during my reign so the next player can feel free to change this. I am just not seeing the utility of the granary right now.
France completes Sun Tzu's.
I contact everyone to let them know about the new Republic in town and sell WMs. England will only offer 8 gp for our extra wines so I decline. Everyone is polite!
Germany completes the Hanging Gardens. More French troops enter our territory heading south.
After building two spearmen I set Bejing to Library.
We could buy Feudalism from Liz for a bunch of gold and our Wines. I leave that upto Jaffa. Once we get Feudalism we can go for Chivalry and possibly start a war. I didn't build any Galleys or Embassies on my turn.
A number of turns pass in Anarchy and I move workers and MM cities. Liz calls up to trade WMs, being a good neighbor I oblige. The English and Germans start the Art of War (as if), France continues to use our territory as her doormat. Three new swordsmen wipe their feet on our land. France starts the Sistene and I see my first French pikeman.
410 BC we emerge from anarchy and the Chinese Republic is formed, long may she live! I push luxuries to 20% and put everyone to work. I go for feudalism at min science because I know the AI values this highly. Galley at Canton changed back to marketplace. In Republic we really need these. I also change Nankin and Tsingtao from granary to marketplace, these will not complete during my reign so the next player can feel free to change this. I am just not seeing the utility of the granary right now.
France completes Sun Tzu's.
I contact everyone to let them know about the new Republic in town and sell WMs. England will only offer 8 gp for our extra wines so I decline. Everyone is polite!
Germany completes the Hanging Gardens. More French troops enter our territory heading south.
After building two spearmen I set Bejing to Library.
We could buy Feudalism from Liz for a bunch of gold and our Wines. I leave that upto Jaffa. Once we get Feudalism we can go for Chivalry and possibly start a war. I didn't build any Galleys or Embassies on my turn.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
We're not going to get any techs at this point in time via 40-turn min science (wait 40 turns for Feudalism? 
) It would be a better move to turn off science entirely and make a few more gold each turn. Other than that, it looks like we made intelligent trades and managed to stay within a tech or two of the leaders - no small accomplishment. Our city infrastructure seems to be coming along nicely too. Nice going! 
EDIT: And renegotiate our wines deal with Tokugawa - he's only paying 3gpt for them and we can get more from him.
) It would be a better move to turn off science entirely and make a few more gold each turn. Other than that, it looks like we made intelligent trades and managed to stay within a tech or two of the leaders - no small accomplishment. Our city infrastructure seems to be coming along nicely too. Nice going! EDIT: And renegotiate our wines deal with Tokugawa - he's only paying 3gpt for them and we can get more from him.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
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- 3,352
It is my understanding that turns spent on a tech reduce the price from another civ. Is that wrong? I don't know what the price ratio is though. As I note above we could afford fudalism now, of course it would cost us alot (wines, 344 gp, 14 gpt). I decide to do a quick study.
It looks like a wash. If I do min research it costs us 11 gp this turn. If I have done the research Liz will go for wines, 370 gp, 11 gpt; if not wines 381, 11gpt. Thus the difference is ... 11 gp, the exact amount we spent on research! No here. I guess not researching does give us more flexibility, on the other hand if Liz desides to be mean to us we could loose the advantage of the wines with her. Also doesn't the deal get worse if she goes from Gracious to Furious?
I didn't realize I had to check for renegotiation. I typically put my preferences to always renegotiate deals after 20 turns.
It looks like a wash. If I do min research it costs us 11 gp this turn. If I have done the research Liz will go for wines, 370 gp, 11 gpt; if not wines 381, 11gpt. Thus the difference is ... 11 gp, the exact amount we spent on research! No
here. I guess not researching does give us more flexibility, on the other hand if Liz desides to be mean to us we could loose the advantage of the wines with her. Also doesn't the deal get worse if she goes from Gracious to Furious?I didn't realize I had to check for renegotiation. I typically put my preferences to always renegotiate deals after 20 turns.
Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 570
0) 330BC Chengdu swapped to galley, Beijing swapped to cathedral.
Continue Feudalism at min science by way of a scientist in Xinjian. I'd rather save our money until we can buy something tradable. (And I don't see us wanting to start a war soon. What could we gain from an honorable war?)
Trade wines+4g (not gpt) to Japan for silks. Trade 6gpt to France for furs. Reduce entertainment tax to 10% (for an extra 12gpt income).
Xinjian cuts down forest and finishes aqueduct, starts marketplace.
2) 290BC Scientist moves to Tsingtao.
4) 250BC India and Germany sign peace treaty.
Canton finishes marketplace, starts harbor.
Hangchow finishes temple, starts courthouse.
5) 230BC Trade wines to England for 5gpt+WM.
Buy worker from India for WM+24g.
Shanghai finishes marketplace, starts courthouse.
Chengdu finishes galley, starts courthouse.
6) 210BC France now has Engineering, and still is only Civ with Theology.
7) 190BC Nanking finishes marketplace, starts courthouse.
8) 170BC England complains about our galley spending one turn in her territory.
9) 150BC Canton finishes harbor, starts courthouse.
Xinjian finishes marketplace, starts courthouse.
Trade deal with France expires. We get our ivory back
10) 130BC Entertainment tax down to 0%.
Trade to France for Engineering: 743g+63gpt.
Trade Engineering to England for Feudalism+WM+2gpt.
Trade Engineering to Japan for WM+34gpt.
Trade Engineering to Germany for WM+12gpt+8g.
India has no gpt. We could get Monarchy from them, if we think that would be useful.
Traded our WM with everyone for whatever pennies they would give us.
130BC
Continue Feudalism at min science by way of a scientist in Xinjian. I'd rather save our money until we can buy something tradable. (And I don't see us wanting to start a war soon. What could we gain from an honorable war?)
Trade wines+4g (not gpt) to Japan for silks. Trade 6gpt to France for furs. Reduce entertainment tax to 10% (for an extra 12gpt income).
Xinjian cuts down forest and finishes aqueduct, starts marketplace.
2) 290BC Scientist moves to Tsingtao.
4) 250BC India and Germany sign peace treaty.
Canton finishes marketplace, starts harbor.
Hangchow finishes temple, starts courthouse.
5) 230BC Trade wines to England for 5gpt+WM.
Buy worker from India for WM+24g.
Shanghai finishes marketplace, starts courthouse.
Chengdu finishes galley, starts courthouse.
6) 210BC France now has Engineering, and still is only Civ with Theology.
7) 190BC Nanking finishes marketplace, starts courthouse.
8) 170BC England complains about our galley spending one turn in her territory.
9) 150BC Canton finishes harbor, starts courthouse.
Xinjian finishes marketplace, starts courthouse.
Trade deal with France expires. We get our ivory back
10) 130BC Entertainment tax down to 0%.
Trade to France for Engineering: 743g+63gpt.
Trade Engineering to England for Feudalism+WM+2gpt.
Trade Engineering to Japan for WM+34gpt.
Trade Engineering to Germany for WM+12gpt+8g.
India has no gpt. We could get Monarchy from them, if we think that would be useful.
Traded our WM with everyone for whatever pennies they would give us.
130BC
Urugharakh
Orc Chieftain
Got it. I can't play now, so you'll have to wait until tomorrow.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
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Jaffa, well done on the trading - both rounds. It took guts to trade 743 + 63gpt! Bartering is key when playing Diety (hey I made a rime 
).
I don't know what good Monarchy would do for us. Revolutions are hell and if we do another one it should be going to Democracy.
As far as going to war, isn't it honorable to take enemy cities if they declare war on us? We could use some of their territory to put us in a better position against France in the long run. Also I covet their luxuries for happiness and trade bait.
).I don't know what good Monarchy would do for us. Revolutions are hell and if we do another one it should be going to Democracy.
As far as going to war, isn't it honorable to take enemy cities if they declare war on us? We could use some of their territory to put us in a better position against France in the long run. Also I covet their luxuries for happiness and trade bait.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Although we don't expect to go to a Monarchy, it's possible that at some point in time in the future we might be forced into one by warfare, so it would be a good idea to pick up the tech now just in case. Going to democracy would be a silly idea though; we are already industrious and don't need faster workers, so we would be going through at least 5 turns of anarchy to get what exactly? An extremely small decrease in corruption is not worth the lost turns of production spent in anarchy (IMO), not to mention the fact that we have to deal with much-increased war weariness in the event of combat. At this point, I see no reason to revolt to a democracy when we have very little corruption in a republic. Our greatest problem at this point may be figuring out how to get England to declare war on us... (unless we would rather attack France; that might be suicidal though.)
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
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I guess I am just a Democracy nut! IMHO one can always use lower corruption and faster workers (even industrious civs, man those workers go go go). However, I wasn't advocating a government change - I think we will probably stay in Republic for the duration. It is easy to fight defensive wars in either Republic or Democracy and I don't think the honorable Chinese are bent on world conquest. Possibly we want to own our continent but that's it and that should be no problem while staying in Republic.
In my single player games I have only gone to Monarchy during a war (or even while planning a war) if I am Religious. I am not a warmonger by nature and have found 8 rounds of Anarchy during wartime (or while preparing for war) to be a real downer. I am more of a - pick a goal - achieve goal - make peace - type of a player.
In my single player games I have only gone to Monarchy during a war (or even while planning a war) if I am Religious. I am not a warmonger by nature and have found 8 rounds of Anarchy during wartime (or while preparing for war) to be a real downer. I am more of a - pick a goal - achieve goal - make peace - type of a player.
Urugharakh
Orc Chieftain
(0) 130 BC Gandhi offers almost nothing for Engineering. So he is only few turns away from discovery. I sell it to him for all his 28 gold and Monarchy. The latter might be useful later in the game, though I hope we never need it. I don't see how a 1 scientist research on Invention will help us. We should aquire it earlier. Hence I let the scientist at Tsingtaoa work on the plians for one food, one shield and 1 gpt. All stuff will be useful to our empire.
(1) 110 BC I disband one of our reg warriors in Beijing to save one turn towards our cathedral. This will gain another 10 shields from otherwise wasted forestry. I'll disband all our reg warrior once I gain a turn, while I'll keep our vet ones in Beijing in case we need a few swords. Tokugawa offers alliance versus Joanie. I politely decline.
(2) 90 BC Beijing finishes cathedral and starts on courthouse (will pay for itself and gives one shield) to make use of the forestry. Joanie has Invention.
(3) 70 BC We can now afford theology @2nd civ prices. I refuse because nobody else has cash.
(4) 50 BC Shanghai finishes courthouse and starts cathedral. Disband reg warrior in Nanking to save a turn in production of courthouse. I buy a indian worker and buy spices from Liz for 249 gold, because we need either a lux rate or a couple of entertainers. Otherwise Hangchow would revolt this turn, while Shanghai would follow next turn. 10 % lux will cost way more than 249 gold.
(5) 30 BC I switch Hangchow to marketplace, because we encounter happieness problems otherwise. I disband our last reg warrior there to save a turn in production. Japan and India singed peace.
(6) 10 BC ...
(7) 10 AD Beijing finishes courthouse and starts on libary. We will eventually have to do some own research. Paris completes Sistine.
(8) 30 AD most AIs have civalry, while Gandhi has Theology in addition. Otto and Liz have communications with Persia.
Buy communications with Persia from Otto for WM and 153 g.
Xerxes is far behind in tech, but has contact with Hammurabi.
Buy contact with Hammurabi, Xerxes world map and all his 17 gold for literatur and monarchy.
Trade world map with Hammurabi and get all his 100 gold in addition.
Trade WM and contact with Babylon and Persia to Gandhi for Chivalry and 16 gold.
Trade WM and contact with Babylon to Liz for 5 gpt and 21 gold (all she could afford).
Trade WM and both contacts to Joanie for 18 gpt and 4 g. Invention is still too expencive at 2nd civ price while I can buy Theology, but prefer waining another turn until Tokugawa gets it from the Great Libary. Nobody has anything for offer, so I can't sell it around.
Trade WM and contact with Babylon to Otto for 152 gold.
Tokugawa has only 22 gold and no gpt. I still sell everything to him, because he will have it next turn anyway.
I switch Beijing to Rider.
We establish the remaining embassies.
(9) 50 AD Buy an english worker.
(10) 70 AD Hangchow finished marketplace and starts on courthouse.
A couple of deals expire. The cheapest way to trade our japanese wines away is trading our silks together with 640 gold to Joanie for theology and then trade in silks for wines and 128 gold from Tokugawa. I then trade theology to Liz for 7 gpt and 52 g. I buy furs from Joanie for 208 gold. We don't need it anymore once we have cathedrals in our cities, but currently it is way cheaper than running luxes. France has invention and education while everbody else on our continent is at most on par in the tech department with us. Persia and Babylon are way behind and at war.
Hints: The spear near Canton should move to Chendu for flip protection. We should strongly consider starting barracks and then riders once we finished our cathedrals. Concerning a war, I don't know how we could provoke England. They seem afraid of France and not interested in going to war with us. A war with France should extablish us as the super power of the world. This is very dangerous, but we should consider it once we have a sizable rider force. Remember riders are by far the strongest unit until cavs hit the table and the AIs can not handle 3 movement units effectively. So 30-40 riders might suffice for France.
0070AD
(1) 110 BC I disband one of our reg warriors in Beijing to save one turn towards our cathedral. This will gain another 10 shields from otherwise wasted forestry. I'll disband all our reg warrior once I gain a turn, while I'll keep our vet ones in Beijing in case we need a few swords. Tokugawa offers alliance versus Joanie. I politely decline.
(2) 90 BC Beijing finishes cathedral and starts on courthouse (will pay for itself and gives one shield) to make use of the forestry. Joanie has Invention.
(3) 70 BC We can now afford theology @2nd civ prices. I refuse because nobody else has cash.
(4) 50 BC Shanghai finishes courthouse and starts cathedral. Disband reg warrior in Nanking to save a turn in production of courthouse. I buy a indian worker and buy spices from Liz for 249 gold, because we need either a lux rate or a couple of entertainers. Otherwise Hangchow would revolt this turn, while Shanghai would follow next turn. 10 % lux will cost way more than 249 gold.
(5) 30 BC I switch Hangchow to marketplace, because we encounter happieness problems otherwise. I disband our last reg warrior there to save a turn in production. Japan and India singed peace.
(6) 10 BC ...
(7) 10 AD Beijing finishes courthouse and starts on libary. We will eventually have to do some own research. Paris completes Sistine.
(8) 30 AD most AIs have civalry, while Gandhi has Theology in addition. Otto and Liz have communications with Persia.
Buy communications with Persia from Otto for WM and 153 g.
Xerxes is far behind in tech, but has contact with Hammurabi.
Buy contact with Hammurabi, Xerxes world map and all his 17 gold for literatur and monarchy.
Trade world map with Hammurabi and get all his 100 gold in addition.
Trade WM and contact with Babylon and Persia to Gandhi for Chivalry and 16 gold.
Trade WM and contact with Babylon to Liz for 5 gpt and 21 gold (all she could afford).
Trade WM and both contacts to Joanie for 18 gpt and 4 g. Invention is still too expencive at 2nd civ price while I can buy Theology, but prefer waining another turn until Tokugawa gets it from the Great Libary. Nobody has anything for offer, so I can't sell it around.
Trade WM and contact with Babylon to Otto for 152 gold.
Tokugawa has only 22 gold and no gpt. I still sell everything to him, because he will have it next turn anyway.
I switch Beijing to Rider.
We establish the remaining embassies.
(9) 50 AD Buy an english worker.
(10) 70 AD Hangchow finished marketplace and starts on courthouse.
A couple of deals expire. The cheapest way to trade our japanese wines away is trading our silks together with 640 gold to Joanie for theology and then trade in silks for wines and 128 gold from Tokugawa. I then trade theology to Liz for 7 gpt and 52 g. I buy furs from Joanie for 208 gold. We don't need it anymore once we have cathedrals in our cities, but currently it is way cheaper than running luxes. France has invention and education while everbody else on our continent is at most on par in the tech department with us. Persia and Babylon are way behind and at war.
Hints: The spear near Canton should move to Chendu for flip protection. We should strongly consider starting barracks and then riders once we finished our cathedrals. Concerning a war, I don't know how we could provoke England. They seem afraid of France and not interested in going to war with us. A war with France should extablish us as the super power of the world. This is very dangerous, but we should consider it once we have a sizable rider force. Remember riders are by far the strongest unit until cavs hit the table and the AIs can not handle 3 movement units effectively. So 30-40 riders might suffice for France.
0070AD
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Got it, will be looking to improve our military situation when I play tonight. France is entirely too strong; maybe we can do something about that with 20 or so Riders. 
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
(0) 70AD Most everything looks good to my eyes, as we continue infrastructure builds. I have one overriding goal for this turn: build as many Riders as possible. While it's highly unlikely we can attack anyone before they get to muskets, the sooner we are in a position to attack the less prepared our opponent will be. And rifles will close off any attack opportunity for our Riders, so the clock is in fact ticking on us... With our current state of 5 luxuries, we have 5 happy faces and 1 content face in each city that has a marketplace. With that level of happiness we can go right up to size 11 without cathedrals, and 10-20% luxuries will let us both go to size 12 and combat war weariness without any serious problems. Not to mention that we can always get gems from England if we sign a ROP and hook them up for Liz. With that in mind, I switch Shanghai and Xinjian from Cathedrals to Riders (although both lack barracks; this is done to avoid wasting any shields) and Canton from Cathedral to barracks, again with no loss of shields. We can easily hold the regular Riders in reserve and promote them by picking off weak/exposed units. And since we really don't need the happiness benefit of cathedrals now, I say let what CAN wait for later wait, and make sure that we use our powerful UU while the window of opportunity is still open! If we can swallow France, we will have more than enough land to play the game peacefully from that point on. With all those thoughts in mind, I end the turn.
(1) 90AD Our first Rider produced in Shanghai, which goes to barracks. Nanking finishes a much-needed courthouse and goes to aqueduct. Canton finishes barracks and goes to Rider. Nothing on the diplomatic front.
(2) 110AD Beijing finishes a Rider and starts another. Xinjian finishes a Rider and starts its barracks. With our spiffy new Riders congregating in the capital, I send our old veteran warriors to our border cities to help suppress the odds of a flip. In addition to France, England and India both have Invention now - but Japan does not. Buying Education @2nd from France and trading it around in a 2-for-1 would not work, as both India and England are broke. Tokugawa looks like he can offer something for Invention though, so... 365g + 34gpt to India for Invention... and Tokugawa can only cough up 154g, no gpt for Invention. Either he's really close or just plain broke, and I'm inclined to wait a turn and see what the case is before accepting such a low price. With us making 170gpt, we can certainly afford the payment even if we get nothing from Japan. Upon getting Invention, we can now see that France has Gunpowder (yikes!) and a scouting Rider reveals they have musketeers in their cities. They're running away with this game - we really do need to attack them. That ends this turn of trades.
(3) 130AD Barracks complete in Shanghai, a Rider is started. Looks like I should have taken that deal with Tokugawa, as he now has Invention. I honestly thought he was broke; well, at least it only cost us 150g. Not much else going on this turn.
(4) 150AD Xinjian finishes barracks, startes Rider. An English archer is wandering near our borders. Maybe Liz is going to attack us
(5) 170AD Nothing much...
(6) 190AD Joanie wants a ROP and military alliance with Japan, which we graciously decline. Beijing finishes Rider, starts another. Again, no new techs discovered and generally not much happening. Interestingly though, the Japanese have captured the island city of Grenoble from France.
(7) 210AD What a weird turn - nothing completes and all workers are in the middle of tasks. All I can do is press spacebar...
(8) 230AD Canton completes a Rider and starts another. The diplomatic front remains amazingly static for a Deity game.
(9) 250AD Riders complete in Xinjian and Shanghai; more are started. I actually get 34g from Xerxes for our world map; he must have been pretty far out of the loop!
(10) 260AD France starts work on Bach's this turn, so at least we know they have spent a number of turns' research into an (essentially) useless tech. Beijing completes a Rider and starts another. Hangchow finishes a much-needed courthouse as well and starts a granary. It can go to barracks and then military after that.
Situation: We have 8 riders at the moment and 4 more under construction. By the end of the next 10 turns, we will have close to 15 of them and it will be time to start thinking about a target. I think that we can actually get a declaration of war from England if we manage it right, and trust me that at the moment going up against France might be a daunting task. We may want to discuss how to proceed next in terms of war; see my picture for an example of how war with England might be procured. We have almost 1200g and +167gpt at the moment, plenty of money to buy a tech if someone other than France researches a new one. In another 15 turns we will be able to kick off a golden age and really start rolling over someone with Riders; hopefully England, but if it's not possible than France.
Upload File feature not working, so I have attached the game save.
(1) 90AD Our first Rider produced in Shanghai, which goes to barracks. Nanking finishes a much-needed courthouse and goes to aqueduct. Canton finishes barracks and goes to Rider. Nothing on the diplomatic front.
(2) 110AD Beijing finishes a Rider and starts another. Xinjian finishes a Rider and starts its barracks. With our spiffy new Riders congregating in the capital, I send our old veteran warriors to our border cities to help suppress the odds of a flip. In addition to France, England and India both have Invention now - but Japan does not. Buying Education @2nd from France and trading it around in a 2-for-1 would not work, as both India and England are broke. Tokugawa looks like he can offer something for Invention though, so... 365g + 34gpt to India for Invention... and Tokugawa can only cough up 154g, no gpt for Invention. Either he's really close or just plain broke, and I'm inclined to wait a turn and see what the case is before accepting such a low price. With us making 170gpt, we can certainly afford the payment even if we get nothing from Japan. Upon getting Invention, we can now see that France has Gunpowder (yikes!) and a scouting Rider reveals they have musketeers in their cities. They're running away with this game - we really do need to attack them. That ends this turn of trades.
(3) 130AD Barracks complete in Shanghai, a Rider is started. Looks like I should have taken that deal with Tokugawa, as he now has Invention. I honestly thought he was broke; well, at least it only cost us 150g. Not much else going on this turn.
(4) 150AD Xinjian finishes barracks, startes Rider. An English archer is wandering near our borders. Maybe Liz is going to attack us
(5) 170AD Nothing much...
(6) 190AD Joanie wants a ROP and military alliance with Japan, which we graciously decline. Beijing finishes Rider, starts another. Again, no new techs discovered and generally not much happening. Interestingly though, the Japanese have captured the island city of Grenoble from France.
(7) 210AD What a weird turn - nothing completes and all workers are in the middle of tasks. All I can do is press spacebar...
(8) 230AD Canton completes a Rider and starts another. The diplomatic front remains amazingly static for a Deity game.
(9) 250AD Riders complete in Xinjian and Shanghai; more are started. I actually get 34g from Xerxes for our world map; he must have been pretty far out of the loop!
(10) 260AD France starts work on Bach's this turn, so at least we know they have spent a number of turns' research into an (essentially) useless tech. Beijing completes a Rider and starts another. Hangchow finishes a much-needed courthouse as well and starts a granary. It can go to barracks and then military after that.
Situation: We have 8 riders at the moment and 4 more under construction. By the end of the next 10 turns, we will have close to 15 of them and it will be time to start thinking about a target. I think that we can actually get a declaration of war from England if we manage it right, and trust me that at the moment going up against France might be a daunting task. We may want to discuss how to proceed next in terms of war; see my picture for an example of how war with England might be procured. We have almost 1200g and +167gpt at the moment, plenty of money to buy a tech if someone other than France researches a new one. In another 15 turns we will be able to kick off a golden age and really start rolling over someone with Riders; hopefully England, but if it's not possible than France.
Upload File feature not working, so I have attached the game save.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
And I've had to attach the map as well... If we were to settle on the red X, we could ask Lizzie to remove here forces or declare war, and the results of Epic13 are pointing to the fact that aggressive settling of AI borders *really* irritates them. I think we stand an excellent chance of getting Liz to declare war. Is this a good plan or should we concentrate on France? Everyone's opinion will be welcome.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Wow a spacebar turn at 210AD on Diety, an almost unprecedented event.
I see there are still French troops moving south, who are they at war with down there? They certainly haven't made much progress.
I think we should take out england. Our UU and golden age will really help us but I agree with Sullla's assessment. Also if I remember correctly Englands territory will be a powerhouse for us once we get all that jungle cleared. While France's is just passable.
One potential problem is France getting into the war against us too. Then we would have an entirely nasty situation on our hands. Especially if we are trying to defend with pikemen (much less spearmen). Actually the more I think of it the more I fear a two front war. Any ideas on how to avoid that fate?
I see there are still French troops moving south, who are they at war with down there? They certainly haven't made much progress.
I think we should take out england. Our UU and golden age will really help us but I agree with Sullla's assessment. Also if I remember correctly Englands territory will be a powerhouse for us once we get all that jungle cleared. While France's is just passable.
One potential problem is France getting into the war against us too. Then we would have an entirely nasty situation on our hands. Especially if we are trying to defend with pikemen (much less spearmen). Actually the more I think of it the more I fear a two front war. Any ideas on how to avoid that fate?
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
I'm actually not afraid of that happening at all. England is backwards and poor, with very little to offer another civ for a military alliance. Contrast that to France, with whom we are gracious and have multiple deals going on. England also has no iron, so unless they traded for some at some point in time in the past, we would be facing spears in every city. The English cities are almost all size 4 or lower, which means they have very little productive power and no extra defensive bonuses. We could take them completely out in no more than 10 turns, and London would be easy to take on the first turn. I'm more worried about AI civ "vultures" jumping in on OUR side and stealing cities from us than having to face a two-front war. If we strike fast and hard, the war will be over before the other civs have a chance to get involved at all. (Of course, all this presupposes that we can, in fact, get a declaration of war from England...)
Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
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What victory condition are we aiming for?
Diplomatic is on the table. If we were to go for that, would getting into any war be a good idea?
Diplomatic is on the table. If we were to go for that, would getting into any war be a good idea?
Urugharakh
Orc Chieftain
To Sulla: Tokugawa is brook, but gets his techs for free because he controlls the Great Libary.
Concerning wars: We will have to fight France at some time during the game. Otherwise we'll probably loose. So its more a question of timing. We can fight them soon using our riders against their muskets. This must be done before cavs arrive on the battlefield. It is uncertain we will aquire the necessary military power in time. Our other possibility is conquering England. This will give us some nice territory and a very good FP area. The question is, does this gain enable us to keep up with France? I don't know. I would vote for France now in case we do have the necessary military power (at least 30 vet riders, 40 are better). If we win this war, the game is basically won. In case we can't gather enough riders, lets swallow Liz (15-20 riders should suffice here) and hope we aquire enough land to keep up with Joanie. Another option is taking Liz now and see what we have left. This might be enough for France later.
Concerning wars: We will have to fight France at some time during the game. Otherwise we'll probably loose. So its more a question of timing. We can fight them soon using our riders against their muskets. This must be done before cavs arrive on the battlefield. It is uncertain we will aquire the necessary military power in time. Our other possibility is conquering England. This will give us some nice territory and a very good FP area. The question is, does this gain enable us to keep up with France? I don't know. I would vote for France now in case we do have the necessary military power (at least 30 vet riders, 40 are better). If we win this war, the game is basically won. In case we can't gather enough riders, lets swallow Liz (15-20 riders should suffice here) and hope we aquire enough land to keep up with Joanie. Another option is taking Liz now and see what we have left. This might be enough for France later.
Urugharakh
Orc Chieftain
Unless the game power shifts dramatically we'll have almost no chance for a diplo win. We will never aquire the UN with France 2-3 techs in front of us and this gap still growing. We need one war for a diplo win, either England or France.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Re Sullla: It's good to hear we are Gracious with France and that England has no iron 
. I think that solidifies our position - attack England ASAP. IMO your dot map has shown the way. Even if France gets ancy at our power grab they wont attack in time to stop us from rolling over England with our Riders.
Re Jeff: If we don't grow at all all we will be left with is the diplomatic win, and that is never a sure thing. While we don't necessarily need to get the UN to achieve the diplomatic win, we do depend on the honesty and dependability of the AI. I think we could still get a diplomatic win if we fight an honorable war with England. We could even leave them with their little city south of the desert (I think the AI doesn't like it when you completely wipe out another civ).
Re Urugharakh: If we sucessfully take England we may not have to fight with France. IMHO taking England will push us past France (luxuries, rivers, and grassland galore) especially once we reach the industrial era.
. I think that solidifies our position - attack England ASAP. IMO your dot map has shown the way. Even if France gets ancy at our power grab they wont attack in time to stop us from rolling over England with our Riders.Re Jeff: If we don't grow at all all we will be left with is the diplomatic win, and that is never a sure thing. While we don't necessarily need to get the UN to achieve the diplomatic win, we do depend on the honesty and dependability of the AI. I think we could still get a diplomatic win if we fight an honorable war with England. We could even leave them with their little city south of the desert (I think the AI doesn't like it when you completely wipe out another civ).
Re Urugharakh: If we sucessfully take England we may not have to fight with France. IMHO taking England will push us past France (luxuries, rivers, and grassland galore) especially once we reach the industrial era.
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