RBGC SG5: Training Day SHADOW THREAD

[Rojo]

Ok, I have read the SiBCaT link, downloaded the tech sheet from Brackard and have read your report and I am definitely in need of some answers.

I see alot of reference to not being wasteful in spending for research. I was always under the assumption that what was overspent was carried over for the next turn. I guess what I am reading is that this is not the case though I do see reference to the cache in Sirian's post. Does this mean that only the bonus rp is cached and not what we have overspent?

Also looking at an example from Sirian's post I am not sure how this cache works. He gives the example of where 1600 is remaining to be researched and using SiBCaT determines it to be around 1200 to be spent. He pushes it to 1250 to make sure and voila... new tech has been researched next turn. He then goes on to say that he now has 400 cached? How can that be if we just used it to bring the total up to the 1600. Isn't this bonus rp being used twice or did I misunderstand something?

Lets take your example for comm theory. You have put spending at 46 which gives us 6 bonus for a total of 52. Comm theory only requires 50. Does this mean 2 rp get cached for next turn or does 6 get cached as per Sirian?

Next thing is that the extra cash we saved due to using SiBCaT, can now be used for Social or Military. However, I would assume that this is not used during the early game when we are focusing 100% on any one area and should be saved up due to our lack of funds?

Am I making any sense anywhere?

Rojo

 

[Brackard]

I'm with you Rojo. I printed out Sirian's SiBCaT and am working through exactly what he did.

Let's start with the basics. (Bam-Bam, others, if I'm wrong, plesae let me know!)

There is no carryover regarding research. The cache that is being described is the notice GalCiv gives us regarding the amount of research that is being done based on the current level of research. If you don't do research the previous turn, there is no cache. If you increase/decrease research spending, the level in your cahce does not match so you need to adjust for the difference.

Looking over what Sirian did, it seems like it would just be plain easier to manage research based on the total cost as opposed to the differences based on cache? Especially since you know your tech +%?

Let's take an example for illustration. I can research up to 60rpt, with a +20% research bonus. I am researching a 200 cost tech.

With our 20% bonus, we actually only need to research 100/120 * 200 or 166 research points. We go two turns at full for 120 leaving us with 46 research points. We now reduce our research spending to 50 rp and we should have it. (if i read this correctly, which isn't guaranteed).

Is this correct anybody in the know?

 

[Bam-Bam]

Answer #1: Whatever is leftover between what you spent and how much was needed for a tech is NOT carried over. There is no carry over cash of research points.

On SiBCaT: This tool is about correctly predicting when a tech will come in while spending right about what is needed to complete the tech. The cache that Sirian writes about is the game's INDICATION (and remembering) of how much BONUS research you have. The game keeps a memory of the amount of bonus research you spent LAST MONTH (that's the cache to which Sirian refers). So, if you spent 70rp and had 10rp of bonus research last month, the game would tell you that you will complete a 160 rp tech in 1 (+1) months. What the game does not tell you is how much your bonus research will be if you CHANGE the spending. Thus, Sirian's technique is about how to calculate your BONUS research, without resorting to counting every planet every time (very tedious--but I did it in my example on my last shadow turn).

On your calculation, Brackard the 167 rp (not 166) is the amount of PAID research we would theoretically have to put into a 200rp tech with a 20% bonus (200/1.2). You must pad that amount to account for round-downs at individual planets, and for the game "feature" that requires slightly above the amounts quoted in Javascript's database. (for example, I have ALWAYS had to spend at least 51rp for med/ind/comm theory (50rp tech) on huge maps). Take a look at the example in my shadow turn. Theoretically, I should only have to spend 42rp to get comm theory in one turn (50rp/1.2). If you look at my shadow turn, I even padded that by 2 rp to a spend rate of 44rp, and would have been short. At 44rp spending, I was only getting 5rp of bonus due to the rounding. That is why you need to pad the numbers (but not too much). At 46rp spending, I got 6rp of bonus, thus ensuring I will get the tech in a turn.

Go ahead and load up the game--it will tell you that the tech is due in 1 (+1) months. Press turn--and the tech will come in. Trust SiBCaT, not the game's calculation of what bonus research is.

Brackard, your calc is about right. You might want to keep that spending at 60rp for the last month as your padding. Having only 6 rp of padding may not be enough based on the round-down effects.

I chided several people for "wasting" money on their research--that was for cases where the base spending was 20rp or more per month greater than the base cost for the tech being researched.

Does this make more sense?

 

[Rojo]

Yes it does... thank you. I will have to try this out a few times and see the results to ensure I truly understand what was said.

 

[Zed-F]

Another thing to note -- it is not always easy to determine what the bonus will be just by looking at your racial +tech% attribute. Recall that different planets can have different improvements on them; if they do, some will net you more bonus research than others for the same base spending. The game's internal bonus research cache correctly calculates this for you, but you have to use SiBCaT to make use of it.

OTOH, if it's too much bother, don't sweat it too much. I've found that, as a practical matter, guesstimating works well enough most of the time, so long as you have a rough awareness of what bonus research is and how it works, and so long as you are willing to accept the occasional less than perfect result.

 

[JaxomCA]

Watching out for your research spending is important only in the first 2-3 years, while you are spending your initial 1000 bc without a way to replenish it. Once you have solid economy going, it is not as important if you overspend. Besides, by the time you have a strong enough economy, tech research will take multiple turns and you only waste money on the last turn.

For these reasons, I never take a research bonus since I would mostly end up wasting it. I also don't build research buildings until I am ready for continuous, long research.

BamBam, the cost of techs increases slightly the more tech you know, that is why the early techs cost 51 then 52 then 53 instead of the base 50.

 

[Bam-Bam]

Yeah, I rarely play the technologists, and I rarely take a research bonus as well. Of course, I have a little emotional tie to the technologist party, since it was the party I took to my first maso win.

You are right about the value of watching tech spending in the early game. That was the point I was making in the last shadow round (and not just about research spending)---MIND YOUR USE OF THE INITIAL 1000bc!

Thanks for the info about the tech cost increase--I hadn't really noticed it.

I DO build the initial research center, but do not research the computer techs until much later--there is always something more important in that middle phase, at least for me.

 

[Bam-Bam]

Ok. Here we are. I do not generally start social so early, but we are 3 months away from having soil complete everywhere, and a banking center on earth. I can lower spending to 51% and keep the same ETAs on all projects--done. That saves 16bc/turn (bct). With our research bonus, that means I can get another 50bc tech out of our initial bankroll.

January

Set the freighters on autopilot for the Alterian and Torian homeworld. I take a gamble and hold off on trading trade to the Caranoids--Cold fusion and defense theory are not worth it. I do not like only having 2 colony ships about--there is lots more systems to grab. If there is another yellow down toward Maestro, we are screwed, since there is a Caranoid colony ship there.

February

Soil completes on 4 planets. Hero picks up +1 weapons anomaly. Easternmost colony ships spots Piers, a 16/14 yellow system.

March

Two more planets complete soil.

April

The last planet completes soil, and a banking center is built on Earth. The caranoids have deflectors and defense theory now, but I cannot get deflectors without cash, and trade for defense and cold fusion is not worth it. Change spending to 100% military to get a some more colony ships out.

May

Settle PQ16 in the Piers system and get this event.

I pick the good option, with the goodie-goodies as our closest neighbors. Morality is 56. The Hero picks up 2 points to its defenses (swish) from a march madness anomaly.

June

Colony ship with 175M souls launches from Unukalhai. It heads northeast.

July

Colony ships launch from Earth and Cherryh with 200M colonists. Sivil launches a 175M loaded colony ship, and cherryh launches our third freighter. Switch from 100% military to research, but not before buying another colony ship at our new world, Piers for 88 + 8 for 63 months (from Mitrosoft? ). This is a lot of cash, but gives us a nice shot at some more worlds without commiting us to military spending for 3 more months. I RARELY do this, because I ususally spam out the colony ships in the early game. But in this case I will make an exception--there are a LOT of systems to the east, and NO influence spotted there.

The Caranoids have some better trading opportunities...including this deal.

I decide to pass. Why is that? Well, they want 54bc to throw defense theory on the table. I can research that in a month, with a 20bc surplus. One month delay is not really worth it, especially for a tech that we do not need, since we can trade for techs further along in the military branch. I could take the industrial and cold fusion for trade with some influence points, but I am going to wait and see if they pull Impulse drive, which we should be able to get for trade straight-up.

You've gotta love the round-down. In theory, I should be able to set research to 44 or 46 (from the example on my last turn) and get med theory in a month. Not so fast. We are a republic now, and we have more planets--so research spending is spread out. In fact, at a spending of 50rp, only earth pulls in any bonus research (+1). There it's set. Med theory will complete in a turn with 50 +1 and a 35bct surplus. Colony ships are sent east and northeast.

August

Sure enough, med theory completes, and we launch that purchased colony ship from Piers with 130M colonists.

September

Guess it's time to the teacher. I forgot to change my research target, and pulled weapons theory. At least I had the spending rate set right on. This sets up a nice trade with the Caranoids.

This one I'll take. I could probably take a few more ip in the deal, but I find that to be tedious. On maso in the early game, the AIs have so much more influence that getting a couple of ips here and there in tech trades does not make a difference in the voting. Note also how we are making out in this deal--two 50rp techs for a 50 rp tech and a 100rp tech. The minors usually give the player a better deal--certainly better than you will get from the majors without any influence bonus.

Next tech I want is Basic Environment (220rp). I set spending to 68rp, which should give us the tech in 3 months with our current bonus (only 7 rp). I also drop taxes to boost growth for the smaller worlds. Earth is over 3.4B, so keeping it at 100% morale begins to loose effect with the 200M/month cap on growth. Having 100% morale does no good for growth for planets above 6.67B, since 3% (normal growth) will give 200M/month.

The hero picks up a 5% boost to our spying ability.

October



November

I have to bump research spending up a notch (70rp) to get Basic environment next turn. Remember, the game does remember the last turn's bonus. The game was telling me I needed two more months at 68rp, and that the tech would come in next month with 70rp. When going UP in research spending, the game will never give underestimate the time needed to complete the next tech.

December

Sure enough, basic environment learned. The Caranoids have Impulse drive, which they give up for trade. I set up for Interstellar Refining next, due in two months with a 22bct deficit. I put habitat in the queue ahead of entertainment centers, and put manu centers at the end of the queue. Our northeasternmost colony ship spots Umera, a yellow system with a PQ16 planet.

End of Year

Have to bump up spending a bit to pull refining next turn. We are running a 27bct deficit, with 105bc in the bank. My next move would be to swich to social, and get habitat, entertainment centers, and manu centers going, as well as getting the econ capital up on earth. There still is no influence spotted to the east.

Here is a shot of the tactical map.

Planets (all but 2)

and Domestic situation.

I have been staying at 100% morale, although I do not necessarily do that in every game. I like to keep taxes fairly high (50% +), and once you are below 100%, there is no benefit to staying in the 90s, so I will run taxes up when it gets too costly to maintain them low for 100% morale. I then prioritize the big morale improvements (stadiums, stock markets, teleporters, and the like) to get back to 100%. But once planets are over 3.4B, the value of 100% morale decreases until is does no good above 6.67B.

The Shadow Game

 

[Brackard]

Since I just finished my shadow round, I’m up to speed in regards to how everything is working, so I continue on the way I was going. My main goal this round was to begin the basic social projects (soil and banks) to get the economy kicking. Then I was heading back to research.

So let’s see what we start with:

For the round, freighters were auto piloted to NW/SW Altarians/Torians.

January: Movement only

February: Unulkalhai I, Cherryh I & II finish soil enhancement. Piers is scounted by colony ship heading east. PQ16/14. Was this what the Caranoid ship was heading towards? It didn’t colonize the PQ14.

March: Sol IV, Unulkalhai II Soil Enhancement

April: Bank Earth, Soil Civil

May: Piers II colonized, no event.

June: Earth entertainment center, Unulkalhai I, Cherryh II banks, Econ capital queued for Earth.

July: Cherryh I, bank. Nesro scouted. Worthless.

August: Sol IV, Unulkalhai II, Civil I banks completed. This finishes the first round of social. The economy should be kicking up a bit here shortly. Moving back to research now. Time to start working on the micromanaging research. Let’s start with the greens. Medical Theory. 50 RP. Cut spending down to 23% (100% research)

September: Medical Theory comes in, and we make a bit of money in the low spending month. Enough to keep us in the green. Next, Basic Environment. 220 RP. Can’t get it in one turn, set it for two, spending up to 54%.

October: Movement. Military resource discovered to the NW.

November: Basic Env. Comes in. Hero makes contact with Alexians (who was exploring down South). Set research as is to Imp. Env. Should come in Feb.

Alexians:
Up: Def Theory
Down: Medical Theory, Basic Env.

Caranoids:
Up: Cold Fusion, Def Theory, Industrial Theory
Down: Med Theory, Basic Env.

I decide not to trade anything at the present time. There didn’t seem to be anything worth it at the moment.

December:
Nothing.

And the game: Link

 

[blacksmoke]

Bam - Bam,

After reading yours and other post I have some additional questions.

In the past I always use the initial government thoughout the game. I notice that we have already switch government type once. How often do you go with switch government type? Do you have a problem with moral vs benefit of additonal income?

In your turn I notice that you switch production to scout vs going to other ship type. What is the rational for this decision?

The change of spending priorities from Military to research. What you recommend on Gig map?

Do you ever split spending at any point of the game or is iit 100% in given area?

Your comment on my colony ship size. I notice that you go between 50 to 200. How do you determine the size.

My choice of weapon research was my mistake. I forgot to look at
research after change spending to it.

Morality- In the past I played as evil empire. Are you advising that I should play to a more netural empire at the higher levels

The rule for research RPT do not carry over each turn. Does it apply to social and military.

Lastly do you void the anomolities with your Hero ship. If not when I do you start?

Thanks you for input and look forwards to the response.

 

[blacksmoke]

I will post my round 3 tonight or tommorrow. I currently debate to how approach the turn. I see that I have to three options
1.switch back to military production to build some more colony ship for the North, NE and E
2. Continue Social production due the fact we have some Soil E.
3. Research something to Trade with Cariniod

Am I missing anything??

 

[Rojo]

Jan 2180
Opening remark shows that Yor is strongest. We have met the Cariniods, and see influence to the west and southwest representing Altarians and Torians respectively. We are currently at 100 social spending with most planets working soil enhancement.

Tax rate: 39%
Spend rate: 62%
Approval: 97%

We have 2 freighters and 2 colony ships to work with. We have too few colony ships in circulation so I have the option to change back to Military to pump them out or continue with the social spending. I opt for the latter and decide to change spend rate to 51% which will still allow us to get the social improvements within the same time span.

I send 1 freighter each to Altarian and Torian home worlds. Cololny ship in the east I continue to push east and the remaining colony ship I send SE to sector 11-12

Feb 2180
4 soil enhancements are built and governors kick in. Surveyor picks up improvement for weaponry and I continue to send him SE. Colony ship in east spots the Piers system (16/14).

Mar 2180
Ships move and 2 more soil enhancements built.

Apr 2180
Earth builds Bank Center and another soil enhancment built. I change spending to 100% military to pump out colony ships. I change tax rate to 50% and spend rate to 87%. This allows me to pump out a freighter and many colony ships over 3 turns.

May 2180
Unukalhai builds colony ship and loads up 100 colonists and head NE. I settle Piers but no event.

June 2180
Earth builds colony ship and send 300 colonist east. Unukalhai also build a colony ship and I load this one up with 100 colonits and send NE.

July 2180
Mid year report

Sol builds freighter and I send this packing north.
Sivil builds colony ship. Load 75 colonists and head NE.
Cherryh builds 3 colony ships. (hmmm...should have had that spread out). load 75/75/150 and send NE, NE, E.

Switch spending to 100% research and verify that Med Theory is selected. Spend rate reduced to 25% (52rp). Tax rate put to 35% to keep approval at 100%.

Aug 2180
Med Theory researched. Switch to Basic Environment Control. Dial in SiBCaT and determine for 220 with 20% research bonus, I need to spend about 183. I set spend rate at 32% giving 66rp which should allow me to get it within 3 turns.

I call up the Carinioids to see if they are willing to trade. They are, and I take the following deal:

Sept 2180
Ships move and surveyor spots Nesro sytem in sector 9-13 but it has nothing.

Oct 2180
Ships move.

Nov 2180
Get Basic Environment control. Switch to Improved Environment Control. bump up spend rate to 36% which should allow us to get this within 3 turns. I check in again with the Carinoids and they have some additional items to offer. I make the following trade with them:

Dec 2180
Meet the Alexians on the Decius system down south, and they have nothing to offer. Here are end of year screen shots.

Save game

 

[Bam-Bam]

Originally posted by blacksmoke
Bam - Bam,

After reading yours and other post I have some additional questions.

1) In the past I always use the initial government thoughout the game. I notice that we have already switch government type once. How often do you go with switch government type? Do you have a problem with moral vs benefit of additonal income?

2) In your turn I notice that you switch production to scout vs going to other ship type. What is the rational for this decision?

3) The change of spending priorities from Military to research. What you recommend on Gig map?

4) Do you ever split spending at any point of the game or is iit 100% in given area?

5) Your comment on my colony ship size. I notice that you go between 50 to 200. How do you determine the size.

6) My choice of weapon research was my mistake. I forgot to look at
research after change spending to it.

7) Morality- In the past I played as evil empire. Are you advising that I should play to a more netural empire at the higher levels

8) The rule for research RPT do not carry over each turn. Does it apply to social and military.

9) Lastly do you void the anomolities with your Hero ship. If not when I do you start?

Thanks you for input and look forwards to the response.

Answers:

1) I always immediately switch to the next higher government when it is available. In my game, I only switched to republic. I reloaded a save and switched back to imperial to illustrate a point about wasting funds on research. Switching governments allows for increased spend rates at each planet. In other words, think of your economy as a balance between income and spending capacity. Later in the game, we will be getting trade income that augments (or perhaps even overtakes) our income from taxes. Unless we increase the spending capacity of our planets (think of this like the horsepower of our economic engine), then all the income will just go into our treasury--not doing us any good for building social improvements, researching, or building ships. Ideally, we would like to have the capacity to spend up to our current income, with a modest surplus. There are three ways to increase spending capacity--more planets, social improvements that increase production and research capacity, and improved government.

2) I switched to scout to allow the planet to recover some population. I switched a planet in Cherryh, because that 2-planet (at the time) system was a bit drained in population from pumping out colony ships from two worlds.

3) I change spending to research when I feel I have enough colony ships enroute to settle worlds at a reasonable distance. I would switch more quickly if I have met a minor or another major. Jaxom may have more thoughts on this--he's our gigantic map guru at RB.

4) I split spending later in the game when I am researching--I usually only split between two. For example, I will set research as my priority, then send the remainder of my spending to social or military. That's usually in the late 2180s and beyond (if the game goes that long). Others have different thoughts and techniques, I am sure. My thoughts are to concentrate the force of the economy on one area to get that benefit (new tech, new improvements, new ships) more quickly.

5) Size of colony ships is largely based on the base system population. For the Sol (starting) system, I can usually pump out 150M ships and keep base population above 1B. For settled worlds, I like to keep the base pop around the size of the original settlement (100-200M).

6) See my last shadow turn--I did the same thing, only later

7) No. My comments on your choice of morality was that our only known neighbors are the two known good civs. Taking all evil choices will ensure that our relations with them will be poor, and will likely result in them attacking us.

8) Spending for a specific social improvement stays attached to that improvent. For example, if you spend 30bc toward Gravity Accelerators, and switch to a bank, your spending toward the Gravity Accelerators will be saved, but you will have to start from scratch on the bank. For military, spending is saved, and is transferred to the new ship if you change projects. For example, if you have spend halfway to a colony ship, and switch to a freightor, your spending on the colony ship will transfer to the freighter. Any excess spent in a turn over the amount needed to complete the improvement or ship on a planet is lost.

9) I use the survey ship to scout worlds, picking up anomalies in its direct path (except for research and wormholes) until I think its usefulness as a scout is no longer needed. I then usually switch to auto-survey, checking on the ship regularly to try and get the best benefit out of research anomalies.

 

[blacksmoke]

Bam - Bam

Thank you for your reply - I might have more question when I have more time I think about your respone.

 

[Bam-Bam]

No problem blacksmoke---just get your latest turn up by this evening--my comments will be going up, and we will be moving on to the next round.

 

[blacksmoke]

Jan 2180

One Freighter to Torian
One Freighter to Altarian
One Colony ship to section 9-8
One Colony ship to section 11-10
Hero to the south

Feb 2180
4 planets completed soil enhancement

March 2180
2 planets completed soil enhancement
cut spending to 50%
Hero hit anomalies and now in section 10-11 Direct it to section 11-12

Apr 2180
1 Bank
1 Soil Enhancement

May 2180
Ship movement

Jun 2180
Ship movement

July 2180

Switch to 100 military (need more colony ship for possible planet in the east, NE and N

Change direction of colony to setcion 11-11 PQ16 planet Peirs

Aug 2180
Hero to the south


Sept 2180
Colony ship to section 11-8

Oct 2180
Colonize Planet Piers

Nov 2180
Frieghter to Carnoid (Questionable decision probably would have been better to send towards Altarian)

Dec 2180
Colony to section 12-6

 

[blacksmoke]

Here is the game file sorry

 

[Bam-Bam]

Looks to be a fairly solid turn. You stayed on social a bit longer than I chose, but that is more a matter personal preferences. Building a bit in to the econ capital on Earth is not a bad thing. With no contact with the majors, jumping up the tech tree three months earlier is unlikely to make a big difference.

As far as not trading, in a normal sucession game, it would make sense to pull the trigger on a med. theory for cold fusion trade, but in a solo game, where there is not a reload penalty--waiting until something better showed up makes sense. Shame to not get a chance to trade away trade--that is a good tech to trade away--and one that I rarely get a chance to sell.

The one flaw I see in your turns is your management of tech. You started improved environment, a 320rp tech. Looking at the save, you are spending @ 116rp/turn, and the game says that you only need to spend 66rp to complete the tech. You could probably set this to 58-60 and complete it next month. You did not mention that you would cut back on research for the last turn, so I am not sure if you had thought of this. If you were to continue playing, you would have sent an extra 50bc or so off to never-never land. It pays to keep track of this, especially in the early game.

Overall, solid turn. Your tax setting is right on--the planets not at 100% morale are the below PQ15base worlds. Getting them up to 100% would require ~30bct less in tax income.

 

[Bam-Bam]

First, you did not upload your save game to the server. Please check this. Good practice is to check the link on your post and see that you download a file (I know, I have done this too many times to count in Civ3 succession games--usually a bad name on the link). In this case, the server only has your 6 image files that correctly show in your post.

Your tax rate at the start looks good--there is not a way to keep those less than base PQ15worlds happy without more improvements. Good call on reducing spending, while keeping the same ETA on the improvements.

You picked the same time to switch to military as I did. Hard to fault you there , but spending longer would not have been a bad thing.

I like the switch to get some more colony ships--wonder why?

I am not sure about 300M on a colony ship out of earth--that will be a morale burden at a PQ15 or less world.

You spent a whole 2 bc too much on medical theory--guess you won't get to pipe in with your 2bc Seriously, I am just pulling your chain--couldn't resist the 2 bc gag.

Good use of SiBCaT for Basic Environment. Now the bad...your trade with the Caranoids was not so good. You gave away a tech (Trade) that could have easily gotten something better. Defense theory is not worth getting at this stage, and the number of influence points being offered should have told you to wait--ip's are just not worth it, and if you are getting over a hundred in an early game trade, you need to hold out for something better.

Same thing with Basic environment. If you had waited on the first trade, you could have traded med theory and trade for ind theory, cold fusion, and impulse drive. That would have left basic environment for more trading. Prop theory and defense theory are not worth trading anything good away, since they give nothing (unlike ind theory that gives manufacturing centers), and their followon techs can easily be bought. In this case, you already have cold fusion, so prop theory is worth nothing.

Good call on your spend rate for improved environment, but I am not sure this is the next tech worth getting. That's a judement call. I rarely research that tech since it's value is limited--10% growth is only worth something before you hit the 200M caps. Not much bang for three months of research.

Overall your economic choices and exploring/colonizing look good, but your trading needs some work. Not a bad turn. You are ready for your Official Game turn.

 

[Rojo]

Save game has been loaded. I apologize and will remember to check in the future.