RBO - OSG3 - Hard Rock Cafe

[ToddMarshall]

Poscript:

Here are some shots for the lurkers. On the map screen, the 2 planets circled fell to us on the interturn.





The nice section. Reading time 2 minutes.

To Therlun: I enjoy your reporting style very much. Thanks for some interesting reads and that one small step for rock joke

To Zed-F: Thanks for teaching me a few points. I know I still have a lot to learn. I know I fall into the trap of playing too defensively at times. Hopefully I'll get out of that.

To Alan: Thanks for offering a lot of insightful commentary, and thanks for making that "crappy" missile boat that proved quite effective.

To dathon: Thanks for some really nice play and for being a really good sort of "uniting force" to the team, at least I felt you were.

To Sirian:

I build lots of bases? Nonsense. The rest of you just like to run around defenseless like naked mages.

Seriously, I've never had more than, oh, two hundred, maybe two-fifty, except inside a nebula.

And I'm paranoid?

To all: Congrats on our victory. I must say it was a well played game and I enjoyed it very much.

I hope to play with you all again very soon. (Like in a few days if you are all up for it)

-Maniac

The Final Save

PS - All you really have to do see the win is click auto on the battles, click don't bomb when asked and vote for us in the senate.

I checked this to make sure. A few times we either hit on AMR, failed to take Selia (we still get the preparing to merge because of Iranha), or the Kitties abstained (If this had happened in the real run we'd still be playing. It happened like 2 out of the 7 times I checked.), but we never lose any of the space battles.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Just one last thing. About some of those Alkiri ideas. Only smalls + colony ships isn't much varien't unless you also restrict colships to ONE design and force it to carry the biggest base, bigest engine, at least 2 beam weapons, and reserve tanks. I tried this, and it actually delayed colonization while waiting for things to fit. , but I still won because the universe was configured to give me the win .

The idea about only beams is great until you dont get any beams in your tree.... What if the first beam we get is, say, megabolt cannons or Ion Stream Projectors. Yikes! I'd be careful about this one. I'd be afraid of getting an unwinable game because of tech holes unless somone playtested it first. Am I overly cautious of this idea? Maybe so. I could be convinced to try it.

Maybe a "no missiles" game would be ok.

I proposed to Sirian a while back that we try an extermination only game with the Alkiri where we couldn't build bases ever . I'd rather save that one for an Imperium though, because I want to see Sirians report of a baseless game .

-Maniac

 

[Factoid]

Hi all,

Congratulations on the win. Entertaining and educational.

The idea about only beams is great until you dont get any beams in your tree.... What if the first beam we get is, say, megabolt cannons or Ion Stream Projectors. Yikes! I'd be careful about this one. I'd be afraid of getting an unwinable game because of tech holes unless somone playtested it first. Am I overly cautious of this idea? Maybe so. I could be convinced to try it.

But you will always have lasers! What more do you need?

Maybe a "no missiles" game would be ok.

I proposed to Sirian a while back that we try an extermination only game with the Alkiri where we couldn't build bases ever . I'd rather save that one for an Imperium though, because I want to see Sirians report of a baseless game .

-Maniac

I have a game somewhere - I think a huge galaxy hard game - where I vaguely remember mislaying a rich planet in a corner *far* away from anyone else that built hundreds of missile bases by the time I came back and checked. I am certainly still decreasing my base building activity - must try some (hard-level) games where I don't build any bases or shields.

I am currently beam-happy so have played a number of games with no missile ships - must try some no-beam games, too!

'grats again,

Cheers,
Factoid.

 

[dathon78]

This was fun guys!!

And of course, kudos to our closer, who pitched a perfect final inning

As for our next event... I like the beam-only concept. To avoid holes in the tech tree, I would actually suggest giving the Bulrathi or Mrrshan a whirl, as they are good and excellent, respectively, at weapons research and will therefore have fuller trees. However, this will probably mean that it will have to be a hard game, not impossible. Also, I'm not sure how we would get psat missile bases with only beams.

If impossible is the way to go, I'm still in, with whatever race the team likes. And I agree not starting until after Thanksgiving; my schedule from now til then is pretty full.

-dathon

 

[ToddMarshall]

@ Factoid - I'm probably "combined arms" happy actually. I never feel "complete" unless I have a fighter, a bomber, and a missile boat in service, though sometimes I don't because of a technology hole.

I guess my bias towards little pellet gun fighters shows... I also love merc, stinger, and pulson boats, particularly when they miniaturize to fit on a small.

And of course, the old standby small Fusion Bomber is a favorite.

About the beams only concept, reading back closely, he says we CAN use non beams if we are foreced to research them (ie. for each generation where there isn't a beam in our tree, we can use the alternate tech).

We could, of course, allways leave open the possibility of bioweapons, since they are off a diffrent tree. What about tech we acquire via steal/trade/gropo? I think this could work.

If we play as Bulrathi, maybe we consider "hand weapons" as beams? We could just use the invade past the bases strat by timing an invasion the same turn as a fleet arrival to trash their fleet.

Also, in some cases, the heavy variety of beams (or even IC or npg early) can cut through shields if we stay ahead in tech.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I like the Bulrathi idea. What if we say can't resesearch or trade for missiles or bombs unless no other option, can't use bombs ever, can only use missiles on bases, and allow other weapons. Don't forget, this leaves open an oft neglected category. Torpedos. Might be fun to mess with torps for a change. Keep working on this idea. We have a week to perfect it.

-Maniac

 

[Therlun]

torps! i would love to see a heavy use of torps.

but what if we dont get any?...

 

[Zed-F]

It is possible to invade past bases as Maniac mentions providing you have transports that are heavily enough armoured and fast enough. Of course, as Bulrathi, you need relatively fewer transports to make it past the bases in order to win the subsequent ground combat.

If we were to do a beam-only variant, I would say keep the rules simple. We may not build ships with any offensive weapons other than beams and specials. Given the variety of specials available in the game (Ion Stream, anyone?) and the fact that we can invade past bases, this still leaves us quite a few options. Moreover, heavy beams often make reasonable base-killers versus opponents with poor shields and/or missle technology. (Huge autorepair gunships come to mind.) I'm sure we will find someone to pick on with a weakness we can exploit. As far as research goes, we can't predict what will wind up in our tree, and we will want missiles for our own missle bases, as well as guns for our troops, so I would avoid making any rules on that side of things.

The communist variant sounds interesting as well.

EDIT: About torps, I've never been thrilled with them, they are pretty much a waste most of the time. Way too energy-intensive, and by the time they come on the scene your ships are fast enough that you don't need the range. They aren't any better at base-busting than beams either.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Heavy beams are often effective. I used them in exactly the way Zed describes in Imp 3 on my auto repair dreads, which were better base killers vs the Meklar than the fusion bombers because the Meklar had scatter packs and reasonable shielding and were shreading small bombers faster than I could make them.

I agree that torps are often sub optimal, especially the early ones. I have on occasion found the top end Torps useful when I didn't have a bomb or missile that would do damage to a planet. Proton Torps once won me a final war when I had no bombs, not even any off Orion's cache. I'm just saying, since this is something we rarely if ever use, why not allow them? I'm agreeable to not however.

Remember, once they get a planetary shielding of 20+ the ONLY weapons we'd have left that could kill bases would be: Tri Foccus Plasma (barely), Proton Torps, Mauler Device, Death Ray, and Plasma Torps.

You are probably right about keeping it simple so no one forgets.

I'd like to do the communist varient too. It should create all kinds of choices about where and when to spend a huge reserve.

-Maniac

Edit: It occurs to me that the communist game might make a better Imp idea. Not that it wouldn't be fun as an SG, but I'd love to see how everone handled it and spent their reserve. I wonder what Sirian thinks. If he likes the idea for an imp, lets save it for that.

 

[Zed-F]

Remember, once they get a planetary shielding of 20+ the ONLY weapons we'd have left that could kill bases would be: Tri Foccus Plasma (barely), Proton Torps, Mauler Device, Death Ray, and Plasma Torps.

Neglecting specials, that's true. However there are some specials you can add to that list. Off the top of my head that includes Ion streams, Neutron streams, and BHGs. Leaving aside of course options like combat transporters or just plain sending enough troops in fast, heavily armoured transports to weather the base's fire.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Hmm. I didn't realize the stream weapons worked on bases. I guess it makes sense that they would though. This shows you how often ive used stream projectors (think never)

Of course we could allways send warp 9 tritanium combat teleporting transports. Yep, yep.

I think this idea would be fun with the Bulrathi.

-Maniac

Edit: Does the energy pulsar have this effect too, or is that vs ships only?

 

[Factoid]

Hi all,

Heavy beams are often effective. I used them in exactly the way Zed describes in Imp 3 on my auto repair dreads, which were better base killers vs the Meklar than the fusion bombers because the Meklar had scatter packs and reasonable shielding and were shreading small bombers faster than I could make them.

Heavy fusion beams on big ships were what the Psilons used on ME in (early) Imperium 4, I agree they are very effective.

I agree that torps are often sub optimal, especially the early ones.

My executive summary of the pros and cons of torps:

• - I so much want torpedoes to be effective, but the halving versus planets makes them much poorer than bombs.
• + I *have* built stacks of medium A-M torp equipped ships and used them to smash slow opposing fleets. They don't go obsolete for that...
• + Meklars have sometimes used huge ships crammed with A-M torps against me and they are troublesome. So maybe I should try that tactic?
• +- Cloaking is an excellent fit with torpedoes (cloak up and run away between shots), but that is late in the technology tree.
• - But then the decent torps (Proton and Plasma as you say) are late in the tech tree, too.
• -- The delay between firing a torpedo and it hitting a ship (even one square away) gives too much latitude for ships to dodge or flee. Beams are far better for slaughtering ships before they flee.

Remember, once they get a planetary shielding of 20+ the ONLY weapons we'd have left that could kill bases would be: Tri Foccus Plasma (barely), Proton Torps, Mauler Device, Death Ray, and Plasma Torps.

Beam weapons are surprisingly effective against planetary bases if they can do ANY damage at all. A planet only ever has a beam defense of 1, contrasting with improving ECM against missiles, torpedoes and (I believe) bombs. A ship with a high-level battle computer (say BC 8-11) will do more than average damage - a Mauler device (20-100 halved) will do closer to 50 damage (before planetary shields) with EVERY shot, and will hit with EVERY shot.

I refer you again to my Imperium Four game - the last twenty years against the Psilons where both sides had Death rays and a single Death ray volley by the first stack to move sometimes slaughtered 200+ shield 35 neutronium planetary bases before they even got to *launch* missiles (and incidentally glassed the planet). Proper base building paranoia levels would suggest 2000+ bases. Or rather, forget bases altogether and build more killer stacks faster than your opponents.

It occurs to me that the communist game might make a better Imp idea. Not that it wouldn't be fun as an SG, but I'd love to see how everone handled it and spent their reserve. I wonder what Sirian thinks. If he likes the idea for an imp, lets save it for that.

I have heard Plato's Republic quoted as advocating an "antlike communism" so I vote for the Klackons, colour red naturally, leader name Karl? (EDIT - Of course! Leader name Plato!)

To avoid holes in the tech tree, I would actually suggest giving the Bulrathi or Mrrshan a whirl, as they are good and excellent, respectively, at weapons research and will therefore have fuller trees.

I have a suspicion that NO race except Psilons gets more or less than a 50% choice in any field, regardless of being poor or excellent in that field. In other words, Klackons get as many choices in Propulsion as Alkaris do *ON*AVERAGE*. It is just so much easier to rush Propulsion research for a decent engine with Alkaris that the suffering is much less than with Klackons with exactly the same engine techs available/missing.

On average races get a bit more than 50% of all techs since they always have to have at least one tech in each tier (like Deflector 2, HEF etc).

Silicoids are a special case as you have seen in this game, where weird (slightly buggy) tech choices may happen.

Cheers,
Factoid.

 

[AlanSHB]

I like the idea of No Bombs or Missiles unless forced to research them or they're stolen. (that means if you have these techs you can use them but you shouldn't research one over any other choice)

That's a nice simple rule, and makes it easier to keep track of what is fair and what isn't.

For races the bulrathi seems like a reasonable fit. Lasers toting bears....

 

[Zed-F]

Does the energy pulsar have this effect too, or is that vs ships only?

I expect it does. You'd need a lot of ships in a stack to do it, but it's theoretically conceivable. This would be a relatively late-game phenomenon due to the amount of miniaturization required to make it practical to attempt.

 

[Factoid]

Hi all,

I expect it does. You'd need a lot of ships in a stack to do it, but it's theoretically conceivable. This would be a relatively late-game phenomenon due to the amount of miniaturization required to make it practical to attempt.

Energy pulsars do have effect on planetary bases, but it is quite diminished (halved as an energy weapon?). I don't remember it damaging all bases the way all ships in a stack are damaged (ie causing the base "stack" to evaporate like ship stacks do) but I could be mistaken.

Clearly EP takes a long time to miniaturise enough to fit in a medium hull. Tech level 30 in all fields is about the level needed to also give a decent combat speed - combat speed 1 pulsars are hopeless. I don't know if Battle computers help.

I guess you want 1000 or more Energy pulsars if you are serious about base killing. Supplementary help from a few Ion stream projectors would be a huge help.

Cheers,
Factoid.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Thanks for the answers guys.

@ - Alan. I understand where you are coming from, but I'd rather do never research bombs or missiles unless it is the only choice from its generation or the tree is completed, and never put them on ships even if you get them (making bobms total junk yes).

Or if people think thats too hard to keep track of, forget the research restriction and go with just don't put them on ships. Trust me, this is entirely winable on hard, especially Bulrathi.

I've seen games that force you to research Fusion Bombs. Wouldn't that sort of ruin any variantisim in a Hard level game? Most hard level games can be won with fusion bombs.

Missiles would allways be useful to acquire for our bases, even via trade. There are only 4 bombs beyond nukes, so it isn't like we are likely to get a tree full of useless options.

Lets live a little and explore sub-optimal land to the fullest

-Maniac

 

[dathon78]

Actually, the no bombs/missiles-only-for-defense fits the bear archtype pretty well. Why do you need technology to smash things planet-side when you weigh two tons, can run up to 35 mph, and are armed with claws and teeth? Beams are just a concession to eliminate those pesky space fleets so the REAL action can begin.

The only question left is map size. I would opt for a large galaxy, to give us a chance at a fair amount of fighting. This would also (hopefully) ensure that everybody has a chance to participate fully in the wars.

-dathon

 

[Zed-F]

Maniac, are you still up for the next game? We have a couple other players at RB, waiting to hear from you.