RBO6 - A Wing and a Prayer

[vmxa]

Liquidated I am not sure what the point to all that was, because I think we all know all of those points. It was a good summary of how planets can be used.

This is a large map, so you will be hard press to send pop off of any starting planet for long. The distances will be too great, even with better engines.

One medium size artifacts is not going to carry research for a large map for long. It will jump start it and make a nice contribution.

I prefer to use a decent size UR to pump ships non stop, that is what they do best. Reserves I do not sweat as they get augmented from time to time by many things, including scrapping ships. After the few 8-10 planets I would be defending with ships, so I am not worried about pumping them with cash that much. I use what I have, unless something special is a foot. I can always raise money in a crisis.

 

[Zed-F]

Good explanation -- you could have said that a lot more simply just by saying you were wanting to max a rich world quickly so as to fund factory construction on other worlds via reserve transfers, and most of us would have understood what you were referring to, but it's possible some new players or lurkers might not. I agree that's a good use to put rich worlds to. However, having the ability to build factories quickly doesn't do much good if there's not enough pop to staff them!

So I'd advocate taking a tad longer (not really all that much longer!) building up the rich worlds by transferring half-max rather than max pop, under conditions of scarce disposable pop like we have here. If we had lots of disposable pop, transferring max is an excellent plan.

As to your other points:

as much as poors and ultra poors might sound like good hosts, keep in mind the host depends on it's industry to regen. P's and UP's take far too long to bulk up on factories for them to be beneficial hosts in a land grab.

That's just the thing. You don't start off building factories or pumping reserves to poor worlds. You start off spending on eco or research at poor worlds -- and that funding is not affected by the planet being poor. Why? The job of the poor planet is not to bulk up, it's to provide pop for your other planets. Why gut your normal developing worlds for 30 pop and send them all to a rich world, then have to grow all 30 pop again at that same normal world that's trying to build facs and mature, when you can send some to the rich and some to a poor, have that poor planet start to grow more pop, then send that pop back to the rich and the normal planet they came off in the first place? You'll wind up with more total pop, and the delay building up your rich world will be small; you can afford to overbuild facs on the rich world if you know a second batch of pop will be coming along from the poor world. Then multiply that decision by the MANY new worlds we still have to settle, many of them rich, and you'll see that if we keep sending max pop to rich worlds and hurting our ability to grow and develop our normal worlds, without offloading some of that pop growth pressure to other habitable worlds (even poor ones,) we'll wind up with a bunch of well-developed rich worlds but with normal worlds that are still way behind the times for lack of pop. Balancing factory growth (especially fast fac growth due to reserve transfers) with pop growth will get our empire as a whole humming much more quickly.

The klackons are divine since their trait is that their population's production is based on their planetary tech level... starting off at about 1.5 bc per pop... this is superior to meklar's + max factories in that bugs get their bonus the moment they land and population doesn;t create pollution...

They take a hit in engines research tho which hurts but they so own the meklars.

I'll agree that the Klacks can expand faster than the Meks, and are generally better. Don't dis the Meks, however! They can be some tough contenders. By midgame, they significantly out-produce the Klackons on a per-planet basis, once you get a couple waste reduction techs under your belt. The Klackons still have a better chance to grab more planets in the expansion phase, but the Meks need fewer to be competitive. I rank them a solid 4th on the list of strongest races, +/-1 or so. And occasionally you'll get a Mek AI opponent that gets off to a rapid start in the expansion phase; if you do, watch out, as they are much more likely to just steamroller you than a Psilon or Klackon AI that does the same.

 

[Liquidated]

well at the start of my turn I saw only two planets that were constructive... home and the artifact planet... we went whole hog expanstion at the cost of actually building up the initial planets which is fine as we wisely started trading with our allys.

Now all that expansion takes time to consolidate and we are doing just that. The northern vanillas are all flush with enough starter poulation to max out on their own, they are fire and forget, this is still only the 2nd x of the game... expand.. we have yet to get to exploit in the south as the majority of those planets were colonized in the past ten turns.

Since we chose to go land grab our southern most planets suffered for it, ok good, that was a calculated risk and it paid off. Now to pay the piper =) our techs are woefully unbalanced and our southern planets are paper thin... for now...

Keep in mind the grab that this SG accomplished is really quite amazing. that we got tox so fast and a town to pump them out every 3 turns was win.

expansion is almost over so we look at the landscape...

Our western flank is has one hole in it... the klackons.

keep in mind the birds and bees do not get along, our race starts off at a diplomatic negative with the kalckons... that we kept them positive side of neutral is win!! that lizards don;t like birds either stands up as all the more impressive.

look at the map now and realize that in this sg's expansion phase we are left with a very narrow border... that's crowned by ultra rich planets... we secured our east north and south by galaxy edges and our long western flak is held up by our best buddys, the lizards.

now the klackons themselves are not hostile but they allowed the cats to use their range... hiss.... we want our best face foward... that would be our ultra riches.

No need to treat all planets equal here, get the most capable up the fastest and limit colonization to only the most desireable planets... there's a ton lolol. I couldn;t hit them all in my turns with all those colony ships active.

All we need is to scare the cats off so they either go home or never leave alive.. whichever... just make sure they do not send a troop ship fleet over.

once we secure that, we have enough time to missle up the foward planets and get a few pellet gun fighters going if the ur's are too slow.

Anyway great job so far... I mean we have a large section of the galaxy and have avoided a war. So long as we hit more planetary techs as time goes on, we'll get the vote we need.

Short game really, the hard part was over before I joined in really not sure how you guys were able to secure tox colonys that fast with the crucial bits.. warp 2 and range 5. Guess you could say the stars were aligned =p

as RB says, fortune favors the bold.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Liquidated]

that's just it though... a size 60 planet that has 60 factories is the perfect canidate for a host of the day.

you do not gain any inactive fatories and have the maximum push to eco back the poulation. the planets gutted (I use the term jokingly) were not front line... if their status was delayed it was to speed up the hot spots...

anyway those two planets that had colony ships still active, one was an artifact... can use more pop, just gave them 10 each.

3 artifact planets is silly lol.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[vmxa]

I do not play on large maps in recent years, but I seem to recall that you need to not get excited seeing so many rich/UR and artifacts. For us small map players we look out and see lots of goodies and start to jump around.

Three artifacts is not unreasonable in a large galaxy. There are could be a dozen out there.

What you say is true, given the experience of the players and the favorable map a hard level with no variant is going to be a walk over. We almost can do no wrong here.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Well, this was originally set up with the idea of attracting new players with a not too tough game. It seems it went over the top on the lack of challenge however.

No word from Pru, so I got it!

 

[Liquidated]

I personally play almost exclusively small galaxys and the hop from hard to impossible is a chasm.

playing impossible small is no fun as the humans because I just win diplo like the 2nd time a vote comes up... no fun there.

darloks are mass fun simply because everyone hates them. ran about 6 impossible games this morning and got ganked every time as people invaded me without me doing a darned thing to them... yet

lets try that as an sg lol small impossible darloks win any way. I'm sure it's doable with 5 brains on it instead of one.

not sure what the differences are from impossible to hard but small impossible is really tons harder if you pick a halfway challenged class.

anyway just want to stress how amazing the expansion in this SG was and still is.. the speed at which you guys nabbed all those prizes is noteworthy.

I'd be up for a more challenging game though what I hear rbo5 was ugly lol

Imo nothing wrong with losing, it's how you stood up to it.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[ToddMarshall]

OK, it looks like a runnaway for us. Don't look for a heavily detailed report here. All I'm planning to do is push factories and Settle new colonies.

2383 - Mrrshans show up at Lyae?? And our fighters are sitting there?? to whoever built these things and whoever positioned them here also

We manage to kill five of their seven missile boats, though we do lose about a dozzen fighters. Doesn't matter. The planet is saved.

2384 -

2385 - Artifacts Artemis and Large Zoctan max out We complete a colony ship. I set Zoctan to make colony ships as well as the home planet. I send the colony ship to Romulas, A tundra on the Klackon boarder.

2386 - Rich, Toxic, Boarderworld Klystron is Settled. The other artifacts planet maxes out. I want to send a wad to our new planet, but we dont have any mature colonies arround, so i send it 8 million to get it to 10/30. Xendala, about to max out is enlisted to make a colony ship.

2387 - Altair finishes a colship. I send it to Rotan so we'll be able to reach the planet in the corner. I check diplomacy to see about trading, but everyone wants WAY too much.

2388 - Improved 8 hits. Choices are Improved 7, Reduced 60%, and Suits. I go for suits. UR Toxic Primordius maxes out. Zoctan completes a colship. I send it to the UP planet in the SW corner.

2389 - Xendala/Altair finish colships. One is sent to the UP on the edge near Altair/Spica, the other to the Dead world right by Altair.

2390 - Rotan Settled. Xendala and Lye max factories. Lye terraforms. Zoctan finishes coloship, sends it to the Rich planet in the SW corner.

This event happens

Oh wow are the Silicoids big

I don't bother to initiate diplomacy. I leave that for the next player.


Notes: All scouted planets have a colony ship en route EXCEPT the one in the top right corner. The colship to send there completes at Altair when you press next turn.

There are some blue planets in a nebula that might need scouting, I'm not sure. I think we've expanded enough, and they will probably get filled with silicoids anyhow.

Here is the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/RBOSG6_MM.zip

Edit: It's a slot 3 save. I've got too many SG's going at once Also, I forgot to send people to Rotan, so please do that.

ROSTER:

PrudenceMoon/Maniac <--- Just Played
vxma <---- Up now
(dathon) <--- Skiped until he says otherwise
catwalk <---- On Deck
Zed-F
Liquidated

 

[vmxa]

Well, this was originally set up with the idea of attracting new players with a not too tough game. It seems it went over the top on the lack of challenge however.

No word from Pru, so I got it!

That is fine and I was not trying to denigrate it in anyway. It could have turned out less with with a bad location. I can enjoy the game win or lose, hard or easy. All I care about is playing and learning.

I always felt I would rather play my best game at anything and lose to a better player than play poorly and win. Of course I do not like to lose, but still if I did all I could and it was not enough, so be it.

A game like the Gathering Storm's 2 year PTW pbem was such a game. We played extremely well, but in the end two teams were able to join up and over come our best. All teams had some great players, but we had a smallish island. The winners had a huge contient. We did manage to take down the top team on another large contient they basically wholly owned and we did it in two turns. It came down to one transport finishing off a battleship.

 

[vmxa]

I got it. Will get start shortly.

 

[vmxa]

not sure what the differences are from impossible to hard but small impossible is really tons harder if you pick a halfway challenged class.

-Liq

So many things are affected, turn to page 314315 for a list.

 

[ToddMarshall]

I usually only play small/impossible with the Klackons, Meklar, or one of the "warrior" races (Alkari, Bulrathi, Kitties). The warrior races thrive in small universes if you can seize the moment early.

 

[vmxa]

2390:

I first have to figure out what race we are, ah it is Alkari as white.
Since we have no variant rules, I drop all spying on hide mode and save the cash.
I see 5 colony ships out to Romulus/Pollus/Xudax/VxmaI/Whynil.
I see Keeta terran size 70 open and a colony ship being built, so I presume that is what it is for.

Around the horn. Adjust Promodius from all ECO +4 to +3 and 7.8/y. It has 40/55 and 70 factories.

Zoctan 1 click on MB and build 2 Pelican/y
Vox click a bit to get terraforming going.
Antares add toECO a bit.
Build the design left behind as Pelican NPG.

2391:
Gorra max
Altair finish col and off to Keeta. Send 10 to Rotan, ECO +3.
Xendalla +1 click on MB
Artemis as well.
78BC to Vox
Lyae adjust to max factories, +1 pop 32/43
89BC to Lyae
77BC to Dolz

Not sure what to expect, but planets that are near Klacs get a boost. Nuc engine makes sending pop very far a poor option.

2392:
Personal Deflectors comes in. We have Class III shields and Class V planet and Class IV shields. I go with planet as we have a lot of ships near us.

I know we are on good terms, so that may be not needed. OTOH if they stay that way it won't matter as we won't need better ships either.

Founded VxmaI

 

[vmxa]

Whoops I turnovr my notes and see I did not mention all of last turn.

So 2392 continued:

Adjust Antares +2 pop.
Relocate shipping form Zoctran to Xendalla.
Adjust Drakka to +2 pop and send 10 to Dolz. Drakka had 62 pop and only 43 factories. Dolz is an artifact planet and closer to the AI.
69BC to Dolz.

2393:
Romulus founded
Antares max factories 39/55. Many planets are not balanced for pop/fac.
1 click to MB as well.
8BC to Klystron

2394:
RC3 comes in. We have BC3 or BC4 so I take BC3.
Xudax founded
Primodious max factories, adj MB in 3 yrs, also doing refit. I want to get the ships here available for elsewhere.
Combat at Zhardan our scout was able to dance around the colony ship and it left.
Altair 18 to Xudax and adjust.
Lyae MB in 5, +1 pop and refit.
No pop to Romulus. Can't find anyplace that is close enough and can spare it.

2395:
Pollus founded, not sending any pop here either it is UP.
At this stage I do not see moving pop off of mature planets to standup anything ut top planets. Later when you are taking down planets, then fine. Right now I want to get border planet up and let the core reseach or make ships. If we have a good engine, that may be another story, but 10 or more turns, no thanks.

Adjust Gienah to start getting some factories. It will not be sending pop for some time, it is just to far in the rear.

Relocate shipping to Klystron.

 

[vmxa]

2396:
Keeta founded
News flash fleets strength Klac/Sili/Sak/Mrrs/Bulrathi/Alkari.
Altair 13 to Keeta.

2397:
Whynil founded
Promodious up now.
Drakka sends 18 to Whynil. it is Rich and Draka still has so many pop Vs factories.
Xendalla 9 to Klystron. This is aborder rich with Saks, pumping to get it up.
Lyae has MB now, will finish pop/fac next turn.
37BC to Klystron
16BC to Rotan
Propulsion is at 25%, so my luck still bad.

2398:
50BC to Klystron, 9 pop 4 turns out 17/31
Scrap scouts(7), scrap colony design (0) we have lots of foxbats.
Klacs have a ton of ships near us.

2399:
Battle Suits comes in, choices are: IIT7, Reduce waste 60% and Zort.
I go with IIT 7 here as we have RC3 runing and lots of factories to build.
Reduce is good and Zort, but armr is far away and we cannot afford a war with our neighbors right now.

69BC to Klystron
19BC to Whynil

2400:
The is called and we get 9 and have 14,s o it would be 1 short of a win (abstain).
Vox MB
71BC to Klystron
26BC to Whynil

Still no range 7, so that planet goes begging. I probably should have started a large with ext range long ago. I jsut keep thinking it would pop. If i had we probably would have been able to vote the game over.

Here is the tech:
Prop 37%
Weapon full
Planetology full
Force 1/2 bulb

 

[vmxa]

To me I do not see the benefit of poring money into ships at this point. We do not want to go to war with Saks or Klacs do we? The Saks have some huge flying around, the Klacs have so many ships.

We will soon have merc and Soil, then Planetary shields. A merc missile boat to drive off attackers makes me feel better. Let them send in those slow movers then.

We have two UR ready to build. I did not put them on reserves as we do not need to put money into any planets real bad. I would want to start making some shipping after the misisile comes in.

Two planets Romulus and its UP are without pop at this time. We have a couple in our backyard that are just limping along, but they are never going to be in danger.

Being low on the the fleet list will get attention soon. It looks like at least the Klacs got even friendlier with us during these turns.

The save:

 

[Catwalk]

Got it, will play tomorrow (promise!).

 

[Liquidated]

a few things vx, just in case no offense at all intended...!!!!!!

was the save file intentionally a .sav as opposed to a .gam? zipping them works as well to let you upload them.

The is called and we get 9 and have 14,s o it would be 1 short of a win (abstain).

on the vote if we cannot win(we missed it by 1) then gift your votes to the other canadate so long as that race doesn;t get 2/3'd vote...

it's free diplo and since it is would go to the sillycods, well we could use the positive relations.

just a tip that you may have missed.

Also with the UR's they should never be set to research ever.

dumping money into the reserve is preferable since at the worst, they can route it back into themselves for even more reserve or shop that reserve to an artifact so it gets double research.

To make the most of UR planets, their slider should always be on a setting other than research as the situation warrents.

What I was trying to say before btw, must have gotten lost in the spam

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[vmxa]

I know about all of that. I could not vote fot them as they had 10 vote iirc. They would have been elected.

It is at least as easy to rename from sav to gam as it is to unzip and a lot easier to rename than to zip. The board will not let you upload as gam.

I know that most feel pumpong UR into reserve is a swell way to go, but I could not see the point. We had no place to spend the reserve that was important. We may as well get some RP to try to bust a break through. That is my perspective.

Feel free to diseminate all the ideas that you come up with. Just understand I may do things differently. At least unitl someone convinces me they have a better idea.

 

[Liquidated]

ok let me break this down... planetary reserve has little or nothing to rely on regarding crisis... you can use the reseve to boost your empire on a continual basis...

gonna use a mix of civ terms here.

lets take 3 planets, all with 100 base production to spend after basic upkeep is spent.

planets are normal, artifact,ultra rich in that order...

now lets take all 3 and place all 100 'hammers' on research.

that's
turn 1
100 beakers from normal
100(x2)beakers from atrifact
100 beakers from the ultrarich
= 400 beakers.. 0 reserve.

turn 2- 5 are the same 400/0

thats a total of 2000 beakers and 0 reserve.


Lets take this and change it with the ultra rich on permanent reserve...

100 beakers from normal
100(x2) beakers from artifact
100(x3)(/2) reserve from ultra rich.
= 300 beakers and 150 reserve

omg we lost research???? this turn ya!

place just 100 of that reserve into the artifact planet now and 50 back into the ultra rich.. current reserve is now ZERO.

turn two is now
100 beakers from normal
100(+100 boosted from reserve)(x2) beakers from the artifact
100(+50 boosted from reserve)(x3)(/2) reserve from ultra rich.
=500 beakers + 225 reserve

repeat the cycle, 100 goes to artifact but this time 100 goes to the ultra rich....and 25 to the normal!!!!

after turn two that's a total of 800 beakers and 0 reserve.
We broke even on the second turn; a much better return rate trading within our borders than with the sakkra!

on turn three
100(+25) beakers from normal
100(+100)(x2) beakers from artifact
100(+100)(x3)(/2) reserve from ultrarich
= 525 beakers and 300 reserve

turn three totals?
1325 beakers and all 300 reserve reinvested..

turn 4
100(+100) beakers from normal
100(+100)(x2) beakers from artifact
100(+100)(x3)(/2)reserve from ultrarich

600 beakers and 300 reserve which is reinvested..

since we have now reach equilibrium, all turns after are same as 4..

turn 5
100(+100) beakers from normal
100(+100)(x2) beakers from artifact
100(+100)(x3)(/2)reserve from ultrarich

600 beakers and 300 reserve which is reinvested..
turn 5

so totals are now

2525 beakers and 300 reserve which will most likely be reinvested.

compare that to
2000 beakers 0 reserve. from the first set up.


keep in mind this is with a costly first turn and only a short 2 turns with optimal output.

with rich planets doubling hammers, they break even 100 hammer=> 100 reserve.. if you loathe micro like I do, just have a few idle riches beefing up the reserves then dump a lump sum into the ultra riches and artifacts so you can forget about it all for a few turns.

now for this game no big deal, we've won it already but this sort of thing is why ultrariches are so very very nice

anyway try and decipher this if you want, as for liq, he has always had a sort of sirian crisis regarding verbosity.Liq loves to lecture and pontificate

Cheers!
-Liq