RBtS1a - The Thief Economy
- Thread starter darrelljs
- Start date
Qwack
The Poopman
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2006
- Messages
- 836
Ok since this game is under way, I just want to post my thoughts about Agressive AI from my 2 emperor AGG AI games.
The AI is vulnerable until around 1 AD, after that it will be either even or above you in total units. It is EXTREMELY vulnerable up to 1000 BC, and will most likely have 3-5 archers for its total defense at that point (With 3 cities).
After 1 AD, the AI will really unit spam massively after that point, and if you are cautious with the AI, your risking getting attacked. Civ's that attack at pleased will almost always backstab you since they have more units (We dont have any backstabbers on our island so far though).
Tech-Wise, it does not do well whatsoever. at 1500 AD in my second emperor game, AI has not researched liberalism and tech leader is up to banking/gunpowder only. Other civs are up to guilds.
For this game, I think attacking Darius will be the best option. Since the land behind us is pretty bad, and our only good land is towards the AI, attacking someone seems to be necesary. His capital is closer than Hatty's, and his UU is 4 strentgh while hatty's is 5 strength. We can attack him with chariots if we are quick enough, 6-8 chariots should be enough to take him out before ~1000 BC. But ofcourse since we are going after BW anyways, attacking with a combo of spears/axes/chariots will also be possible.
The AI is vulnerable until around 1 AD, after that it will be either even or above you in total units. It is EXTREMELY vulnerable up to 1000 BC, and will most likely have 3-5 archers for its total defense at that point (With 3 cities).
After 1 AD, the AI will really unit spam massively after that point, and if you are cautious with the AI, your risking getting attacked. Civ's that attack at pleased will almost always backstab you since they have more units (We dont have any backstabbers on our island so far though).
Tech-Wise, it does not do well whatsoever. at 1500 AD in my second emperor game, AI has not researched liberalism and tech leader is up to banking/gunpowder only. Other civs are up to guilds.
For this game, I think attacking Darius will be the best option. Since the land behind us is pretty bad, and our only good land is towards the AI, attacking someone seems to be necesary. His capital is closer than Hatty's, and his UU is 4 strentgh while hatty's is 5 strength. We can attack him with chariots if we are quick enough, 6-8 chariots should be enough to take him out before ~1000 BC. But ofcourse since we are going after BW anyways, attacking with a combo of spears/axes/chariots will also be possible.
Darius is a much better target than Hatshepsut:
- UU bonus is useless against us
- Less cultural defence
- Elephants south of capital
I'm not against a chariot rush if Qwack has tested the strat, but we would probably have to give up on the Great Wall to get 8 chariots at 1000BC. We could also try choking/harrassing with our UU but I'm not convinced it is a particularly great strategy as when I tried that I found it causes the AI to spam lots of archers making it expensive to take cities.
the good thing about the UU is that we'll be in decent shape even if we don't have bronze.
- UU bonus is useless against us
- Less cultural defence
- Elephants south of capital
I'm not against a chariot rush if Qwack has tested the strat, but we would probably have to give up on the Great Wall to get 8 chariots at 1000BC. We could also try choking/harrassing with our UU but I'm not convinced it is a particularly great strategy as when I tried that I found it causes the AI to spam lots of archers making it expensive to take cities.
the good thing about the UU is that we'll be in decent shape even if we don't have bronze.
darrelljs
Immortal
That's why I'm leaning towards taking both out, then buttering up to Wang Kon. Gift 'em all our techs when we get Alphabet, adopt Buddhism, heck even adopt Caste System if that is what it takes to get him to Friendly. We'll be dependent on him until Optics, but that's not so late in the game. Of course, we don't know the full lay of the land yet, but I don't think that changes the calculus of killing both Darius and Hatty. If anything more neighbors makes it a better decision.
I also think Bronze Working before The Wheel is the best path. We can use our Worker to improve Pigs, then Cows, then Horse, then focus on chopping out Hokan's. Between the first strike immunity and the ability to take CR promotiosn they should have a much better survival rate against Archers, enough to make up for the extra cost in Hammers. I think if we are fast enough we can take 'em both out before 1 A.D., based on some of the reports for Epic XII we might want to chop a second Worker as soon as BW comes in
.Darrell
I don't think we'll be able to get Wang Kon to friendly, because failed missions can uncover our spies leading to negative attitutde points. But it is probably a good idea to keep relations at an acceptable level, to avoid AI dogpiling us.
The great spy gives us +12 spy points. This is nice but not overwhelming. With the slider at 100%, a nice AI capital along one or two secondary cities is probably a bigger bonus. I'm all out for rushing Darius. Not sure about killing Hatty if we're on a 4 civs continents though, if the AIs are slow on research. They would need trading partners for a decent pace. Even a financial civ would not do hot, left alone.
I think it's better if Qwack finishes bronzeworking for his turnset so that we can decide on strategy and city placement from there.
So we are allowed to do that ? If gifting is authorized, can we sell techs for money ?Darrel said:
The great spy gives us +12 spy points. This is nice but not overwhelming. With the slider at 100%, a nice AI capital along one or two secondary cities is probably a bigger bonus. I'm all out for rushing Darius. Not sure about killing Hatty if we're on a 4 civs continents though, if the AIs are slow on research. They would need trading partners for a decent pace. Even a financial civ would not do hot, left alone.
I think it's better if Qwack finishes bronzeworking for his turnset so that we can decide on strategy and city placement from there.
I also am dubious at getting Wang to friendly with all the espionage heading his way but we should be able to keep him pleased (should stop him back stabbing). Bronze Working seems a good next choice as well.
As for Darius or Hatty, much of a muchness, they are both nice and close. Darius is more of a strategic risk to leave longer as he is a bit of a tech beast.
As for Darius or Hatty, much of a muchness, they are both nice and close. Darius is more of a strategic risk to leave longer as he is a bit of a tech beast.
darrelljs
Immortal
I was looking for a mostly peaceful game, I think the real fun will come during the space race. But, these guys are just too close, and I think its better to clear both of them out sooner rather than later. Still, no need to commit now, I agree we can go for Darius first and then reassess the situation. Like uber says, its very possible we have other neighbors.
Darrell
Darrell
Qwack
The Poopman
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2006
- Messages
- 836
Alright turns played.
I was looking around our land and notice that we have a river running through some desert tiles near us which isn't creating flood plains. First time I have seen this
Anyhow, I set research to Bronze working as everyone agreed on. Worker came in, I decided to put some hammers into a barracks while our capital grows. We have 3 warriors so I dont think we need more of those immedietely. I send worker to improve pigs first for maximum growth. Hatty has horses in her capital, so really if there was any doubt left in terms of who to attack first, its taken out now. No reason going against 5 strength UU whose capital is further away.
One of our explorer warriors finds a Bear and Lion right next to eachother. They eat him. Uberfish was correct, we have more civs on our continent.
Shaka, which is good since AGG AI with the civs we had met so far wasn't relly going to be agressive AI. Shaka is a backstabber and a unit spammer. Anyhow, I started settler when our capital reached size 3. At the end of my turnset, settler is due in 8 turns, and Bronze working in 2 turns. One of our warriors is east of our capital (will fogbust for now until we need happiness in our capital). While our second warrior in the northeast is coming back to help with city 2's defense. Also 47 hammers are invested in a barracks, so probably best to finish that off after settler so we dont lose hammers.
Really no point in discussing our second city location until we know if we have copper nearby. In terms of tech-path, my suggestion is wheel next to connect horses for chariots (Or we can just build our resourceless holkans and delay researching wheel), and worker should probably be sent to one of the hills to chop the forest and build a mine. My personal opinion is to try to go after the great wall, and delay our rush on Darius. If we chop out the great wall, and use our second city for production, we can still rush darius rather early.
save:
I was looking around our land and notice that we have a river running through some desert tiles near us which isn't creating flood plains. First time I have seen this
Anyhow, I set research to Bronze working as everyone agreed on. Worker came in, I decided to put some hammers into a barracks while our capital grows. We have 3 warriors so I dont think we need more of those immedietely. I send worker to improve pigs first for maximum growth. Hatty has horses in her capital, so really if there was any doubt left in terms of who to attack first, its taken out now. No reason going against 5 strength UU whose capital is further away.
One of our explorer warriors finds a Bear and Lion right next to eachother. They eat him. Uberfish was correct, we have more civs on our continent.
Shaka, which is good since AGG AI with the civs we had met so far wasn't relly going to be agressive AI. Shaka is a backstabber and a unit spammer. Anyhow, I started settler when our capital reached size 3. At the end of my turnset, settler is due in 8 turns, and Bronze working in 2 turns. One of our warriors is east of our capital (will fogbust for now until we need happiness in our capital). While our second warrior in the northeast is coming back to help with city 2's defense. Also 47 hammers are invested in a barracks, so probably best to finish that off after settler so we dont lose hammers.
Really no point in discussing our second city location until we know if we have copper nearby. In terms of tech-path, my suggestion is wheel next to connect horses for chariots (Or we can just build our resourceless holkans and delay researching wheel), and worker should probably be sent to one of the hills to chop the forest and build a mine. My personal opinion is to try to go after the great wall, and delay our rush on Darius. If we chop out the great wall, and use our second city for production, we can still rush darius rather early.
save:
darrelljs
Immortal
Ozzy you are up...got my kids birthday party today so probably won't have time to comment.
Darrell
Darrell
The reason that these appear, is when the code to improve the starting spots run, it will sometimes add a river...
When it creates a river, and it happens to run though a desert tile.. these tiles will not be turned into flood plains
Got it. Will be able to play tonight.
Will look at The Wheel after Bronze Working and then straight to Alphabet?
Even though we don't need the copper for our UU, I assume we want to have it for our second city?
I was about to complain about not being able to whip out our invasion force, then remembered which game I was playing, I can whip and chop.
Also, throw the GW in there as well.
15 or 20 turns?
Will look at The Wheel after Bronze Working and then straight to Alphabet?
Even though we don't need the copper for our UU, I assume we want to have it for our second city?
I was about to complain about not being able to whip out our invasion force, then remembered which game I was playing, I can whip and chop
.Also, throw the GW in there as well.
15 or 20 turns?
Qwack
The Poopman
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2006
- Messages
- 836
Wheel or masonry next will work out. If you go masonry, you can build holkans and chop out the great wall earlier, if you go wheel you can build both holkans and chariots and connect our two cities/copper if we have any, and research masonry after wheel.
darrelljs
Immortal
20 is your entitlement, but take as many as you think makes sense. For example, if Qwack had wanted to go until BW completed that would have been fine. We've got a very veteran team here, so I don't think there is any need to make a careful watch of turn counts.
Oh, and good luck...we're all counting on you
.Darrell
. If you need an alternate any time ...
Kylearan
compound eye
Load up the save and have a look around before starting. First thought, man there is some ugly land to our east. Except if you like desert.
Anyway, on with the show.
We will have two Persian cities to choose from now.
Bronze Working is in and The Wheel (13 turns) selected. Only one source of copper to be found
Here.
Convienient
There is a barb archer about so I can't send the settler there unescorted, so have to wait a couple of turns for our first Holkan before setting off.
The Wheel is in and Masonry selected.
Lakamha founded.
Not the greatest but needed copper in first ring of the city.
Shaka is west of Darius.
Played until turn 70.
The warrior in the capital is just for some generic home defense. The worker is mining the forested hill, he can then move onto the copper. We have 2 holkan already and should have 2 more before Masonry comes in. Then we can start on Great Wall.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/88650/RBtS1_BC-2250.CivBeyondSwordSave
Anyway, on with the show.
We will have two Persian cities to choose from now.
Bronze Working is in and The Wheel (13 turns) selected. Only one source of copper to be found
Here.
Convienient
There is a barb archer about so I can't send the settler there unescorted, so have to wait a couple of turns for our first Holkan before setting off.
The Wheel is in and Masonry selected.
Lakamha founded.
Not the greatest but needed copper in first ring of the city.
Shaka is west of Darius.
Played until turn 70.
The warrior in the capital is just for some generic home defense. The worker is mining the forested hill, he can then move onto the copper. We have 2 holkan already and should have 2 more before Masonry comes in. Then we can start on Great Wall.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/88650/RBtS1_BC-2250.CivBeyondSwordSave
darrelljs
Immortal
I am strongly in favor of focusing all our efforts on Darius before making a Great Wall play. If we divide our attention we're more likely to just fail at both, and I think Darius is the more important objective. I think we should take the hammers coming out of that forest chop and throw them into another Worker, then get the Copper connected, then get the rush on (maybe one exception would be to pop rush a monument at size 2).
Uberfish, based on this, you are up.
Nuts...
Darrell
Uberfish, based on this, you are up.
Ozbenno said:
Nuts...
Darrell
