[MOD] Re-aligning the Handicap Modifiers

[JosEPh_II]

One of my goals for this version period for improving v38 is to re-align and re-adjust Handicap discrepancies that I've noticed with the Mod.

Many new players think that C2C Handicaps (and they are even told so by Modders) that C2C should be played 2 levels above what Normal CIV 4 or even BtS vanilla.

I find this is not entirely true. Though the variances in C2C Handicaps can lead to such a conclusion.

It also has been stated that Noble is straight level play between AI and Player. This too is not entirely true for CIV 4 nor BtS and same for C2C.

Another myth is that the AI plays Noble "levels" on all Handicap levels above Noble. This is not true either.

Over the course of almost 9 years now of C2C existence many manipulations to the Handicaps have occurred. I made some adjustments last Sept before v37 release to start scaling the Handicaps in a more uniform manner. This is what I want to continue to do based off the changes that Firaxis did from Civ 4 to BtS.

So this thread is for discussion of the Handicaps and a place for me to ask questions from Senior Modders as well as about Tags that I may need further information on.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Reserved

 

[JosEPh_II]

Reserved

 

[JosEPh_II]

1st question to T-brd, Toffer, and DH,

If the Civ IV engine rounds down to whole integers, then how does the property system think that it can have x.5 integers?

Example Noble for Crime per Pop:

<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
<iAmountPerTurn>
<Div>
<Mult>
<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
<Constant>5</Constant>
</Mult>
<Constant>2</Constant>
</Div>
</iAmountPerTurn>
</PropertySource>

Where is the proof that this formula actually assigns 2.5 Crime at game start to population. If CIV IV's engine rounds Down then how does this Not end up equaling 2 instead of 2.5?

JosEPh

 

[Toffer90]

1st question to T-brd, Toffer, and DH,

If the Civ IV engine rounds down to whole integers, then how does the property system think that it can have x.5 integers?

Example Noble for Crime per Pop:



Where is the proof that this formula actually assigns 2.5 Crime at game start to population. If CIV IV's engine rounds Down then how does this Not end up equaling 2 instead of 2.5?

JosEPh

Only TB can answer this, It all depends on how late, or rather where in the dll code it decides to do the rounding of the number.
Not sure the number is rounded anywhere, except for the number that is displayed in cities.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Where is the proof that this formula actually assigns 2.5 Crime at game start to population. If CIV IV's engine rounds Down then how does this Not end up equaling 2 instead of 2.5?

It's not. It's adding 5 crime per 2 population, exactly as it reads. Thus it is not adding any crime if you only have 1 population, 5 crime if you have 2 population, 5 crime if you have 3 population and 10 crime if you have 4 population and so on. This means game difficulties at these mid-points are a little off with odd amounts. I prefer playing the difficulties that have a smooth integer per population for that reason actually. This definitely skews the experience of that first city with 1 population. A sudden crime surge takes place at the 2nd population.

It could be improved to be reflected by 2 Crime entries, 2 per population and another 1 per 2 population. That would be much smoother at least and would be more akin to saying 2.5 per population, the end amount rounded down if a decimal. However, although I don't SEE a reason that we couldn't have 2 property modifiers for the same property from the same source, I'm not 100% sure it could be done. But I think it can.

 

[olduser]

Things like are internally multiplied by 100 to minimize the effect from rounding down and this makes it possible to have e.g. -1.11 per turn.

This is something the property system should do as well and it would make it possible to scale properties with the gamespeeds as well.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It's not. It's adding 5 crime per 2 population, exactly as it reads. Thus it is not adding any crime if you only have 1 population, 5 crime if you have 2 population, 5 crime if you have 3 population and 10 crime if you have 4 population and so on. This means game difficulties at these mid-points are a little off with odd amounts. I prefer playing the difficulties that have a smooth integer per population for that reason actually. This definitely skews the experience of that first city with 1 population. A sudden crime surge takes place at the 2nd population.

It could be improved to be reflected by 2 Crime entries, 2 per population and another 1 per 2 population. That would be much smoother at least and would be more akin to saying 2.5 per population, the end amount rounded down if a decimal. However, although I don't SEE a reason that we couldn't have 2 property modifiers for the same property from the same source, I'm not 100% sure it could be done. But I think it can.

Then I don't like the current system. And the explanation I got awhile back is totally different than what you are now explaining to me.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Things like are internally multiplied by 100 to minimize the effect from rounding down and this makes it possible to have e.g. -1.11 per turn.

This is something the property system should do as well and it would make it possible to scale properties with the gamespeeds as well.

That would be good. And long time no see alberts2.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Things like are internally multiplied by 100 to minimize the effect from rounding down and this makes it possible to have e.g. -1.11 per turn.

This is something the property system should do as well and it would make it possible to scale properties with the gamespeeds as well.

True but I'm not touching AIAndy's math structures with a 10' pole.

I'm not sure what needs to be scaled. The main thing that causes imbalance between gamespeeds with properties is that the longer the gamespeed (more turns) the more a deviation from 0 compiles. But with decay factors in place basically there to drag all values to 0, there's a bit of a natural scaling effect. Long or short games I don't feel properties act much differently in game effect.

Then I don't like the current system. And the explanation I got awhile back is totally different than what you are now explaining to me.

JosEPh

I'm not 100% loving it either. I suggested the better alternative.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>


I'm not 100% loving it either. I suggested the better alternative.

I don't think it is a better alternative. I have a different idea though.

JosEPh