Reagents shortage

[Copper Golem]

This is not FFH2 bug or balance troubles.
PROMLEM:
Just unique problem of Vanilla Civ4 map generator. Sometimes (especially when you play small map game, but once occurred on huge one), during generation one or more resources are missing. Well, if it is bananas, who cares of bananas? But if missing resource is Reagents that’s bad, and very bad if you are planning magic related game. Because there is no way to replace reagents by something else and you have no strong spellcasters.
DECISION:
Adding new world wonder isn’t an option, because it would be rather useless in normal games (with resource) and gives real power to player in resourceless games.
The best way, to my mind, is to add national wonder, which could be build like “theatre of dreams”, means you need to build about five “alchemy labs”, before build “uberlab” which is synthesizing Reagents and also gives some bonuses.

 

[Copper Golem]

or spell for Druid
"Transmute incense to reagents and visa versa"?

 

[Sarisin]

I like the way you can get gifts from mines especially if you have Earth mana. It's nice when a mine pops Gems, Gold, Copper, Iron, Mithril.

Why not something similar for strategic resources like Incense or Reagents?

Maybe a certain type of mana (Enchanted?) would give you more of a chance that an improved tile (farm, fort on a desert, whatever) or just any tile would give you a chance of getting strategic resources like the scenario with mines now. I love surprises in FFH2.

Me? I cheat when I start the game. If I don't have a good starting position (e.g., no reagents if I am playing the Sheaim), I go back to the Main Menu and try again.

 

[Mortenart]

The best way, to my mind, is to add national wonder, which could build like “theatre of dreams”, means you need to build about five “alchemy labs”, before build “uberlab” which is synthesizing Reagents and also gives some bonuses.

I like this idea. I normally play on fantasy realm maps, and it is very common for certain resources to be totally absent from the game. With most resources it`s not so big a problem - Mana nodes can eventually be created with the Rites of Oghma - but the lack of reagents cuts out a big part of the game. Maybe this makes things more balanced, with the AI unable to make the most of magic right now, but the option to `grow` reagents in special labs would be a good addition I think.

Maybe a certain type of mana (Enchanted?) would give you more of a chance that an improved tile (farm, fort on a desert, whatever) or just any tile would give you a chance of getting strategic resources like the scenario with mines now. I love surprises in FFH2.

This would work too, and might be a simpler solution. I love that sound when you discover a new mineral!

 

[Copper Golem]

Yep, just yesterday, reagents shortage ruined my mages related Sheim game.
Yes, I could change my strategy, but it wouldn’t be real fun to

cut out a big part of the game.

 

[cephalo]

From the XML, the number of reagents is set to 75% of the number of players. That's pretty low considering that you can't do alot of stuff without it. To compare with BtS, iron is set to 100% of the number of players and oil is set to 150%.

You can't really trade for it either because there aren't alot of trading resources in this game. You're usually lucky if you have an extra anything. Also, reagents are also useful for some other things besides magic users, and since it's so rare for a civ to have 2 of them, they aren't likely to give theirs up.

The whole point of 'reagents' is that they are supposed to be rare, but I'd say the number should be boosted to 100%. That way you know that at least one player has more than one to trade if you have none. Another way to simulate 'rareness' is to make if into a clustering resource (like wine in BtS). It would mean that magic using civs would have to appease the controlling civ and hope they have something to trade. Could be interesting.

 

[Turinturambar]

Actually it is a FFH2 "bug", that makes reagents so rare/nonexistent.
They are classified as a strategic resource and strategic resources need to be at least 4 tiles apart from each other.
Since reagents are the last strategic resource to be placed there often simply isn´t any space left to place them.

You can easily observe this by starting games with the blessings of amatheon option enabled or games with more than the standard amount of players.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, if you just want a chance to discover them on the map (like how mines work), download my module for Improvements in Modular FfH and all improvements can be built without a resource present and will have a chance to discover the resources which they are normally built on.

Of course, you put plantations on a LOT, and the chances are fairly low for discovery, so it will take quite a while to happen upon Reagents unless lucky, but it is still possible.

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

Why not simply have an event that generates reagents that occures less and less likely the more reagents is on the map.

 

[cephalo]

Another issue is that the metals, while individually as rare or rarer than reagents, kindof act as substitutes for each other. You know that if you are climbing the metal tree you will likely get some kind of metal eventually. With reagents it's all or nothing. I think they could use a boost to 100% which is what horses are.

Resource crowding should not be an issue under normal circumstances with a spacing of 4 for that resource class. If you boost resources or players, then you are certain to run into that as was mentioned, since the 'bonus class' mechanism creates a rigid limit depending only on raw map size, but even with a normal amount of players and resources, reagents are often unavailable.

 

[BeefontheBone]

Even placing strategic resources before the regular ones would probably do the trick, or bumping reagents higher up the strategic list.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Is there a way to get rid of the 4 tile limit (perhaps only with the blessings of amathaon option)?

 

[xienwolf]

You can change the 4 tile limit in the BonusClassInfos file I believe (it is the only setting in there). And the order of placement in the BonusInfos file.

Not sure how Options change any game settings just yet, but I would imagine you could tie the change to an option as well.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

bumping reagents higher up the strategic list.

That's good idea. Reagents are more important than metals, since metals aren't strictly required for any units.

 

[Roghar]

Also, metals pop and you can get 3 iron into the game from a relatively early wonder if you need to

If reagents were to come from a building I like the idea of using alchemy labs as the basis, especially as they are very expensive for what they do otherwise

Popping non-hill resources is a cool idea too, especially given how many manas have no passive benefits. Nature is an obvious choice for wilderness resources, Water for sea resources

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I was thinking that eventually I'd change alchemy labs to be national wonders, and then allow (arcane?) units in cities with alchemy labs to cast "alchemy experiment" spells. These would create temporary buildings that consume one resource and provide another (like how BtS Cooperations work). There would be several of these, allowing nearly any resource in the game.


I was also thinking of eventually making a Council of Esus state religion only wonder (The Smugglers Syndicate, which would probably require and improve smuggler's ports) provide all resources that your rivals have access to and you don't, but also significantly increasing crime and city maintenance for each resource. It would also probably do this my creating multiple buildings, almost certainly requiring major python coding.



It would be nice for different mana types to boost discovering other resources, but having earth mana do it is ok; Kilmorph is not only the goddess of the Earth, but the goddess of the harvest, the goddess of reaping the benefits of your labor.

 

[Copper Golem]

sounds good!Praying of mages had been answered; I really like idea of MagisterCultuum.
Reagents are still rare and important, But could be found if you need then hard.
Also, what about Alchemy Lab?
You would change existing labs or it would be “uberlab”, national wonder?

 

[Falc]

That's good idea. Reagents are more important than metals, since metals aren't strictly required for any units.

I'm not at home so I can't check, but I seem to remember that certain ships require metals. In particular, the earliest ship that can carry a passenger, IIRC.

 

[Sarisin]

I like this idea. I normally play on fantasy realm maps, and it is very common for certain resources to be totally absent from the game. With most resources it`s not so big a problem - Mana nodes can eventually be created with the Rites of Oghma - but the lack of reagents cuts out a big part of the game. Maybe this makes things more balanced, with the AI unable to make the most of magic right now, but the option to `grow` reagents in special labs would be a good addition I think.
This would work too, and might be a simpler solution. I love that sound when you discover a new mineral!

I play that type of map pretty exclusively and see all of the resources represented.

I'm wondering what 'resource setting' you use of the map?

Logical, Irrational, or Crazy?

I'm not sure if that just affects the positioning of the resources (wheat in jungles, cows on ice, etc.) or the number of resources too.

I use the Logical setting all of the time (on a Large map) and find all the resources there each game. I select the default setting for ai civs - I think it is 9.

 

[psychoak]

"I select the default setting for ai civs - I think it is 9."

That's why. Try a small or tiny game. My last four games on pangea at tiny, no reagents, the one I researched to mithril weapons before winning had no mithril as well, . .. .. .. .. .y map to have been sheaim and switched to infernals.

If I play large maps, I never finish. The horrific time between turns and micromanagement required for workers turns me off by turn 200 if not earlier. If you want reagents, you wait to get lucky on the map generation or you play a bigger map, you're boned on small and tiny, especially if you like a tighter crowding of AI to increase their warring spirit. 6 sides on a small I doubt I see a single reagent even half the time.