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Real World

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Naokaukodem, Jan 17, 2006.

  1. Percinho

    Percinho Gooner

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
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    106
    Location:
    England
    Now now, easy on the generalisations. There's a lot of us in the uk with a healthy passion for American Football, or Football as you Americans call it... ;) , indeed a lot of us take the Monday after the Superbowl off work to stay up deep into the night to watch it. We know of two deep zones, run blitzes, flea flickers and even Statue of Liberty plays.

    Likewise those that say 'soccer' is more cerebral aren't really hitting the mark either. It's just a different brand of game, and one that's ingrained into the culture here in Europe, and many other parts of the world.

    I think people tend to like the type sports they know from childhood. If you're used to the stop-start nature of American sports then the slower but continuous nature of soccer may not appeal. Conversely, people used to wacthing 45 minutes in a row can become frustrated by the constant interruptions, and adverts, in US sports. Especially during the last two minutes of a US football game...

    Anyhow, to each their own.
    I'll get back in my box now. :)
     
  2. Sim-Liver

    Sim-Liver Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
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    39
    I'm still trying to figure out what to wear for 6050 years! my closets already full:D
     
  3. me_Barb

    me_Barb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    60
    It's too late folks. The rise of Asia is upon us and America will go home sooner or later and shrink after all the profits have been realised or somebody gets big buisness out of office (unlikely). From world war 2 America profits are mostly based on arms and it's high tech sector is also either arms related or arms based (hell even the Internet). And seeing how every possbile goods production has moved to China it is the Chinese who will actually profit the most out of a good peaceful world since a lot of people will need what they make while the US. Well they need wars to keep them afloat otherwise what will all those factories do. Everybody can make airplanes now, Asia is the big hot place for cars and space well nobody has profted from space yet. So apart from software, which India, eastern europe and china are in the process of stealing away from the US, arms is all they got left, and oil but it will run out prety soon in historic terms. So buckle up for the rise of the East and the Fall of the west. If we think for a second the US was super power during the time when Asia was experimenting with different political systems, Europe was in the process of being rebuilt after ww2, Russia was, well ,under a very idealistic and not so smart leadership, Australia .... counting cangaroos I supose never heard anything significant happening there and Africa well Africa haven't moved much up since the Egyptians. And Latin America but they are moving the way of Asia now and going experimenting. They should be a force in 70 years or so after they fix it right for their needs. SO if we look closer US was super power because nobody really was trying to be (apart form USSR but please I live in the ex soviet block. It was all "Flex muscle, go away bad americans and leave us be or we nuke you, we have a lot of them really". The whole cold war stuff was a big case of dumb paranoya on the American side. Apathy was the thing then among us ex-commie people.). SO hail China and welcome the new age. Given all historic facts and tendencies The rule of China could actually be way more beneficial than that of the US simply because they don't have any real idielogy baggage. Just look at them they make communism work but only because all the rules have nothing to do with comunism ideology. It's all about what works and what doesn't. What they practice is more likely capitalistic socialism.:lol:

    Oh I forgot Europe. Well It seems tired from all the cenruties of bloody killings so my bet is unless somebody steps on their toes directly it will just sit there frawn and feel good about it self how moral it is. And since nobody in their right mind will consider it a threat those toes a pretty safe if you ask me.

    Oh the muslims. Well from the looks of it they also want to do smoe experimentation but the darn west won't leave them alone because of all tha oil. So they'll have to kick the west collective butt out of there before they can start. I give it 10 years or so and they should have started tryin gthe whole chalipahte idea or what ever the majority thinks is most beneficial at the time.

    Also given the vast amounts of space out there and our punies in it I think the future either holds a great big war somewhere, a global adoption of one chlild per family and so on China policies or plauge attack. I mean There are too much people already and whenever this has happened in History everytime something happnes to cut us down to size. MAybe the next ICE age is just nature's way of dealing with its too many human parasites.

    This makes me think that the US is actually doing a big favor to the ME right now as after every event that has wiped out a lot of people there is aways an age of prosperity and solidarity. This makes one wonder on the whole killing is bad stuff. It clearly has its benefits in some cases. I mean aren't we alrady at the time when humans are actually more expendable than almost all other complex live on the planet. How much till we start killing each other for the last herd of cows on the planet.
     
  4. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    What you failed to mention is that in the same poll, the most overwelming answer was that they really wish the USA had never invaded them in the first place.

    The biggest blunder in the history of mankind if you want my opinion.

    I totally understand, and of course you're right about this. Ultimately, it's up to the people who actually live in the USA to decide which course they want to take from now on.

    However, put yourself in our place (and by "us" i mean everyone else in the world). We feel pretty helpless watching the world go down in flame and we'd like to at least get our voices heard in hope of maybe changing a vote or two. You'd probably feel the same way too.
     
  5. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    I couldn't disagree more.

    American movies : i believe most of them are so dumb and stereotypical that by preventing others from emerging. By doing so, they actually make culture drop instead of increasing it. Kind of like Microsoft that makes innovation drop wherever they decide to control a market.

    Music i can agree with.

    I wouldn't consider baseball players as fine athletes by any stretch of imagination.

    Your form of government, with the constitution that keeps changing, is kind of a joke.

    Despite the propaganda to the contrary, civil rights in the USA are lower than in most European countries, especially since 9/11.
     
  6. Brighteye

    Brighteye intuitively Bayesian

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
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    5,742
    Location:
    Oxford
    "USA - solve African hunger."
    No-one is demanding that the US alone solves African hunger. We all have our liberals demanding that we take responsibility for other countries. However, the EU and US agricultural subsidies are doing a lot to destroy African farming. The UK wants to abolish EU subsidies (which were introduced because of US ones), but France and the US like outcompeting Africa through unfair means. The difference is that the US pretends to love free markets.

    "USA - North Korea is up to no good again."
    No-one round here cares about N. Korea particularly. If you hear about it, it's because of your own liberals

    "USA - there was a Tsunami. We'll all chip in, but we expect more from you. That's all you can give? Sure - it's more than anyone else, but that's all?"
    As I recall Bill Gates gave more to the Tsunami appeal than the US government. Americans and Brits individually gave plenty. No-one was expecting Americans to give proportionally more.

    "USA - this country has gotten out of hand. We need you to send the most troops in, but they'll be under some other UN country's general. Oh - you don't like that? You think you should be in charge all of the time? We don't care that the general is sending your troops in without armor support in an area that clearly needs it. You're not in charge."
    The US is the country deciding that troops need sending in at the moment. Since the US is terrible at on the ground policing (compare Basra to Bagdad, or ask yourself why the Yanks needed British paras to police their supply lines in Iraq), it's quite understandable that the UN, when asked to help, suggests that there's a little more input from other countries in the command structure.

    "USA - we know that you are feeding much of the world with your fishing and livestock and they'd go hungry without you, but we condemn your devastation of fishing waters and the treatment of your animals."
    The rest of the world can feed itself. Maybe people are buying US imports, but that's only because they're cheap because of the aforementioned subsidies.

    "USA - we condemn you invading Iraq for no good reason that most of us actually agreed with you on to begin with. What's that? You're closing your military bases in our country? We'll shut up now."
    The US likes having bases in the UK. If we actually threatened to shut them down you wouldn't be best pleased. They are, as someone else has said, handy airstrips. And the British population protested very strongly against the war; so much so that Saddam's minister said in a broadcast that Tony Blair was the evil dictator and Saddam was the benevolent ruler. I found that rather amusing.

    "USA - your greenhouse gases are killing the entire world. We realize that about half of the cars sold in the USA aren't American made, but we want to keep that money AND complain about your Greenhouse gases.
    We never said we want the money. How about you stop producing all that polution, and then see whether anyone complains about a little car manufacturing?

    "USA - you won't get rid of the landmines in S. Korea. Please remove them so that we may then complain about the vast number of troops you had to put on the border to "protect" against an invasion."
    As before, that's your own liberals. No-one here ever really mentions Korea much.

    "USA - please do something else that we can complain about. We're bored with our own country."
    Well, if your foreign policy wasn't so silly we wouldn't need to complain. And as a Brit, I never get bored of complaining, about my government or anyone else's.

    Anyway, I reckon that fast food is not American. The Arabs had kebab style cafes, the French gave us the word cafe, the Spanish have tapas and the British invented the coffee house. MacDonald's is a business not a culture, and American culture does not rival Japanese, Chinese or most European cultures, based on Civ4 style reckoning. In real life, where the boundaries are not as distinct, I'm not going to venture an opinion.
    The guy who said that the US is the most hated country in the world and would get -1 modifiers was simply stating a fact. A great many countries do not like the US. He wasn't insulting you. He wasn't saying that people are quite right to hate the US. What he said was more like a joke than an insult. If you care about your nation so much that you get touchy about such small things, maybe you should get on with policing your government as you say you can, and not defending it against imagined insults.
    Finally, I'd like to point out that The League of Nations existed before the UN, and the UN is basically a continuation of it, and that the 'American' form of government is not considered the best by everyone, and nor is it American. The Greeks invented the republic and democracy, the Romans used it and many centuries later the British were the first to 'rediscover' it and introduce some sort of representation.

    The Greeks for cultural, since their culture is the basis for all Western civilisation (EU and US). No-one wins a domination or conquest unless you limit it to known world, in which case Greeks or Romans stand a good chance.
    The Space race is too far away, so I reckon the US will have a time victory in 2050. By then those things which can truly be regarded as cultural will have had time to give the US lots of culture points.
     
  7. me_Barb

    me_Barb Chieftain

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    IT is very easy to understand why the US is the most hated country. Simply ask the question? Which country I shoud hate the most and why? YOu'll clearly see that unless you are an Americna citizen or a fanatic Jew there is simply nobody else left.:lol:
     
  8. Mr. Civtastic

    Mr. Civtastic Prince

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    Jan 2, 2006
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    488
    It doesnt matter if you think our movies are "dumb" they are incredibly popular around the world. Maybe thats part of their appeal. And all these American movies do nothing but spread American culture.

    I say sports athletes because the whole world tries to play in our leagues...outside of soccer, of course. Money is a huge factor in this, too.

    You obviously arent from America and dont have much knowledge of American government. Our Constitution hasnt changed since 1992, when the last amendment was passed. Our government is the longest-standing democracy in the world. How long has yours been around?

    Civil Rights are the highest in America, and 9/11 did nothing to change this. 9/11 did not take any civil rights from Americans.

    I'd be interested to know what country this usa-basher is from.
     
  9. Polopapolo

    Polopapolo click, psht, Whoop ass !!

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Québec
    Food for thought:

    Does domination victory = economic victory?

    When will we start seeing terrorism in China, if ever? Will Al-Quaeda ever wage Jihad against the "evil" chinese?

    Is it just me or is China becoming ever more apealing as the next superpower? Probably because they're not interested in policing other countries...

    Forget about english or spanish, have your children learn cantonese and mandarin!
     
  10. me_Barb

    me_Barb Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    60
    Oh yes. We saw the American movies down in the ex soviet block. We were actually seeing them before 89 too but that is another story. Let me tell you. Special effects get old fast. American movies were as dumb as ever most of the time with several very good excpetions. People are actually "killing" each other now for Asian style movies around here. You now MArtial art fliks where the hero actually bleeds, good stories. Anime is actually pretty popular but as with all nobody is actlually selling this stuff around here so it is all pirated from the web. So if you look at official figures you'll ge the wrong picture. Let me tell you what american stuff is actually popular: PC games, some music artists the ocasional "good" movie (Matrix kind of stuff), Discovery channel type programming( I don't really put american on this but it is in english) and those really long TV shows ala Friends and stargate. You animation royaly sucks as most of your movie scripts and Macdonalds and the like is regarded as poison. Supersize me was a very popular film here by the way. All hail the Internet Bucaneers.:lol:
     
  11. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    It doesn't matter that they are dumb, but it matters for our discussion that they're not cultural. Popularity has nothing to do with it. Ever heard the expression "cultural flick"? How many of them are made in Hollywood? Heck, there are probably at least 20 times as many coming from India alone. McDonalds is not culture. Movies with explosions are not culture. Woody Allen, maybe. He's from the USA so you should be proud!

    I believe our constitution has only changed once since it was written over 100 years ago. In fact, we have the opposite problem of yours. Your constitution is too easy to change, and ours is too hard to change (all 10 provinces must agree, which is very hard to do). I'm not saying that our system is better than yours, frankly i think that they both suck for different reasons. But there are countries in Europe that have a much better political systems than any of us.

    Keep living in your dream world! Your governement monitors conversations on the phone and the internet. As soon as you say bomb, they record it and keep it on file. Free speech in America is nothing but an illusion.

    I'd wager the country with the best record on free speech right now is France. Heck, they have too much of it imo. It seems at any given time, half the population is on strike!

    As for your last question, i've already said i'm from Canada. I'm not bashing the USA though. If you read my posts correctly, i make as much fun of my own country. Here, we're allowed to do that without being called non patriotic and monitored by the CIA! :p
     
  12. Percinho

    Percinho Gooner

    Joined:
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    106
    Location:
    England
    Interesting. You've excluded the most global game of all. In fact, the sports agument doesn't hold up at all. Basketball and golf are the only truely global sports that people aspire to play in america. Baseball, US Football and Ice Hockey are no more global than cricket, rugby and tennis, and people don't flock to American leagues for them. Europe's golden League in athletics is the major international circuit.

    Football, or soccer, is the most global game of all and the Americans are still struggling to create a sustainable league, and any American player who breaks through moves to a European club. Feddy Adu will be at one before he's 20.

    So, the whole world may want to play in your basketball league and golf tour, but that's about it I'm afraid.
     
  13. zeeter

    zeeter Emperor

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    1,251
    Didn't mean to sound like I was blasting Europeans or anything. Its just that Americans don't like Soccer (for the most part) because they don't understand the game. Over here, in Gym class, we'd all run around and try to kick the ball into the net, or pass to the guy who seems to be best at kicking the ball into the net. Then we move on to football where there is a definite method going on even at a grade school level. It's not until later that we learn about off-sides and offensive and defensive systems in Soccer, and by that time we generally have lost interest.

    That said, there has been a growing movement in the states where programs are being developed for kids as young as three years old. My school district in particular has these programs and some of the best players in college come from this area.
     
  14. Percinho

    Percinho Gooner

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    Location:
    England
    Your coaches seem to have been watching my 5-a-side team play as that's all they seem to do! ;)

    I do sometimes wonder if Americans are looking for something momore in football. It's a pretty darned simple sport on the surface, but each player has to understand his role in the team. If they're playing out wide then they can be doing nothing for a while, but they have to be in the right position because if they drift out of it, the play can cross to where they should have been in an instant.

    I think American sports are more structured in their individual roles. For instance, a defender in football is likely at some point to be in a goal-scoring position in a game on occasions, whereas a DT is unlikely to have to fill in at CB, let alone find himself as a Wide Receiver! Similarly, a centre in the NBa is unlikely to be shooting 3's (unless they're Nowitzki (sp?) or Sabonis, ironically Europeans! ;) ). Maybe this makes these sport easier to teach at an early age? Don't know, these are off the top of my head thoughts, so feel free to correct me. :)

    Also, given that you have 4 major sports in the US, it's understandable that soccer comes down the order in priority in schools. Anyway, I don't want you to play it too much, or you'll end up better than us! ;)
     
  15. kingjoshi

    kingjoshi King

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    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Soccer is fine for TV. It's shown all over the world with advertiser continually paying for it! Marketers will always go where their audience is, and in the US, there are not enough fans that watch (yet).

    However, the viewability in terms for fans, that's even dependent within the sport. Watching the Colts offense versus Ravens defense is COMPLETELY different. Watching a game like the Trojans versus Longhorns shows a different game of college football instead of watching Akron vs Kent State. How about watching the fast paced Phoenix Suns versus watching the slow to a crawl Houston Rockets. Or watching defensive minded Greece or artistic Brazil.

    For every sport, there is strategy, style, etc. Most people like the offensive flair, while others prefer rough defense (though I think many could learn to appreciate both). I mean, consider the vastly different 'show' the Detroit Pistons put on this year versus last.

    People are resistent to other sports for usual idiotic reasons. Most people like to remain in ignorance. Heck, even people that like 'their sports', knows very little about it..

    Sorry about the off-topic rant, but I'm a fan of many sports and it pains me when people don't give other sports a chance...
     
  16. Astalder

    Astalder Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
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    12
    Zombie I disagree with you on a lot of points, but frankly there's no point arguing the realities of American life with someone that doesn't live here in addition to having an education. You write well enough that if you did live here it would be interesting to see what you think after awhile, but that's not the case. At the moment you are simply spewing the trash that the media headlines. Yes there's truth behind it, but you're using the raw meat they use to draw you in as your truth. It's like those friggin TV show commercials that go "You will never guess what's on this tape!" or make it look like the lead character gets offed by a friend, when you read the whole story the truth is a lot different than the headline the media throws at you to keep you from changing the channel.

    For example, this so called spying scandal. You have to personally receive a phone call from a known terrorist to qualify.

    I'm sorry, but despite the way Europeans so often try to describe American civil rights as something Soviet-like, it's not going to work, at least not in an argument with people that actually live in America that are also capable of responding. Stick with foreign policy lunacy, you're not qualified to tell us what happens within our own borders if you don't even live here.

    Lie.

    Agreed, the United Nations (I studied that organization in great detail a few years ago) has never done anything right. Anything, ever.

    You really need some perspective on life and history if you really think things are that bad. They could be... if 40 years from now we had abandoned Iraq, the country fell into a depression, and a charismatic leader propped the people back up by directing their hatred at the nearest weak target (Israel) while combining the wealth of the Middle Eastern nations, and at the same time the illegal immigration problem in Europe made the Paris riots look like a BBQ, then your world would be going down in flames.

    Right now important decisions are being made, then again this happens on a daily basis throughout history. Calm down, use your head, think.
     
  17. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    Polls don't lie. But i guess they wouldn't tell you this part of the news in the mainstream US media. That's to be expected. Propaganda and all.

    First, how is "not attacking a country" suddenly synonymous with "abandoning a country"? They were doing perfectly fine until you came along. They didn't ask for your "help".

    As for Israel. The only way there will ever be peace in the Middle East is for either the Muslims to be completely swept away, or for the Jews to be moved out. There's no way they'll ever coexist in peace. So what you're talking about sounds more to me like a solution than a problem.

    I'm not anti-semite, just rational. Really, that was a crappy idea putting them there in the first place. "Oh, you had a hard time with the Germans. To make it up to you, we'll settle you around your Holy City. Nevermind that it also happens to be the Holy City of every muslim for hundreds of miles in every direction. I'm sure they'll love the fact that you took away from them what's most sacred to them. I'm sure they'll welcome you with open arms." Yeah, with arms all right. "If they don't like it, well we'll provide you with advanced weapons, so it will be all right."
     
  18. Astalder

    Astalder Chieftain

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    Even if this wasn't completely untrue it doesn't matter, the fact that you don't agree with the USA going in does not change the consequences of a proposed early withdrawl. That would be a massive mistake, you can disagree with the reasons the USA is in Iraq all you want but the fact that you use that as a basis for approaching the situation in the country now tells me that it's a good thing our leaders don't listen to people that agree with you.

    The creation of Israel in the middle of a Islamic region was a mistake, yes. What you're saying though is blatantly unacceptable, if your opinion was representative of the European governments then I would have to say it's time for the USA to abandon them and pick up Israel as its sole ally. What you're suggesting is that, because the European powers (and in part the USA) screwed up in the creation of Israel that we let a war whose sole purpose would be genocide take place.

    If, understanding that, you think that's OK that is no more right and just than those German citizens who 'overlooked' the concetration camps of WW2. You're telling me that because you don't agree with Israel's existence, like you don't agree with the USA being in Iraq, we should abandon the realities of the region and the tensions in the region and just let them 'blowout'. I suppose if World War 3 started in the Middle East with Israel firebombing its neighbors in its last defense, you would then ask the USA how it, as the world superpower, could let that happen?

    I'm not sure there's much point going on with this... I mean I hope you don't know what you're saying and are just reciting lines you heard somewhere else, because if you aren't that makes you quite a poor representative of your position and a damn fine example why the world's greatest military power shouldn't give a damn what anyone across the Atlantic thinks. Assuming you speak for Europe though would be hypcritical of me, so don't worry.
     
  19. Zombie69

    Zombie69 Emperor

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    I said move out the jews, not create another genocide. They were moved in, surely they could be moved out. Heck, Sharon himself had quite a few moved out of some areas.

    I would ask the USA how they could have been so short-sighted as to have provided them those bombs in the first place.

    How could i speak for Europe when i don't even live there? We're on the same side of the Atlantic you and i. This makes your actions impact us (Canadians) even more, and makes it even more important to keep the dialog going and try to get our voices heard.
     
  20. jar2574

    jar2574 Prince

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    :lol: American movies are "dumb" so they aren't a form of culture? Gee, what if I think opera is "dumb" and "sterotypical," does that mean its not a form of culture? People are entertained in different ways than in the past, and those forms of entertainment represent new forms of culture, like it or not. Civ4 does a pretty good job of modeling this with its modern age wonders.

    You've never tried to hit a 90 mph fastball either. Or tried to throw a curveball for a strike.

    This may be my all-time favorite post. A constitution that keeps changing? :lol: Yes, it's been changed 27 times. Tough to keep up with the changes, really.

    If it's a joke, then I guess the joke is on the rest of the world since most countries now have written constitutions.

    My second favorite post. :lol: Yes, the creation of Isreal was certainly a much bigger blunder than WWI and WWII. Clearly. :crazyeye:
     

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