Realism Invictus

[Walter Hawkwood]

Awww nutz. Looks like it's true some civilizations are more unplayable than just on surface unplayable. In the XML, Nubia isn't even there except as a colony.

Of course, when I said they were unplayable, I meant they were unplayable.

A difference between a playable and an unplayable civ in RI is more than just a couple of XML switches. There's quite a lot of content that differentiates a playable civ from one that is there for scenario purposes / as a freed colony. I think you actually can play Nubia in Crusades scenario, maybe on World Maps too (don't remember). But it almost improbable that we will ever have it as a normal playable civ.

 

[cfeyyaz]

Hey, I have a small idea:

Let's give the warrior a big malus against animal (or give animals a big boost against the warrior) so one should be dependant on his scouts for very early exploration, which makes sense. Those scouts would quickly be wiped out after the barbarians start spawning real fighting units. So you won't be able to take one warrior unit across the whole map, contacting 10 other civilization by the year of 3200 B.C. (as I do). Making the exploration a bit difficult would make the game more realistic.

 

[Ahnarras]

I like the idea of cfeyyaz

I'm still struggling on the big world map, always playing as egyptian, and i hope someday i will make it to the middle age. Always end up in war on one side, then having someone else coming in my back >,<
As you may understand, most of my game is in war-time, and i have to say i really like the new "too much guy on the same case" promotion. I have to create lot of little army, that's great. But i'm not really sure how this thing work... Is there somewhere in the civlopedia where you can see how much unit you can have on the same case before having this promotion? And when the limit increase? I though it was link to the era, but in my last game, it was 5 at some point, then 6, even if i was still in the classical era.

Keep up the good work, you are awesome

Ps: i can still see the berber town of Garama and it's surrounding at the beginning of the game. I know it's not a top priority, but if you have some free time someday... ^_^

 

[Darkphoenix]

As you may understand, most of my game is in war-time, and i have to say i really like the new "too much guy on the same case" promotion. I have to create lot of little army, that's great. But i'm not really sure how this thing work... Is there somewhere in the civlopedia where you can see how much unit you can have on the same case before having this promotion? And when the limit increase? I though it was link to the era, but in my last game, it was 5 at some point, then 6, even if i was still in the classical era.

Keep up the good work, you are awesome

Yeah, the documentation on the new logistics promotions will be helpful when it comes out.

What I know:

There's two types, Logistics and Urban Logistics.

Each type has different increases based off tech. You can see this if you look up the tech in the civliopedia, and I think it also might be visible in the mouseover in the tech screen.

I don't remember any of the earlier age ones, but I'm pretty sure City Rights gives +1 Urban Logistics. I think maybe Bronze Working gives +1 Logistics? At work so I can't check.



What level of difficulty are you playing on? I play the Huge World Map almost exclusively, so I can give good advice but different difficulty levels lend themselves to different starts, mostly due to early wonder production vs the AI.

I think as Egypt I either rush for Pyramids (but again, depending on difficulty level this may not be feasible, I think I can do it on Monarch, not as sure for Emperor), or just rush Chariots, and take out a neighbor.

Now, earlier in the thread I spoke about my experience playing as France in which I had conquered Europe before I even got out of the classical age. Not as sure if the Egyptian start is as good as this (pretty sure the Horse tile is not within the "default" city cross, which would mean you would need to dedicate production for a settler).


But if you are having trouble with neighbors back stabbing you, remember, you are human. You can learn to adapt between games. The AI cannot. If you know the AI is a bastard, then just don't give a crap. Rush some warriors/scouts and wander by your neighbors borders until their workers move to the edge and then just DoW them and send the worker home.

The AI respects one thing, and one thing only. POWER. Build a big army. You can wreck your economy, but that's what conquering all those other civs are for.

 

[civman110]

Couldn't they have used a GP to rush that particular tech? All in all, that's very strange. Could you upload a save for us to have a look?

Sure can.

I checked to see if it was a GP rushing it. I didn't see any, but I may have missed him while I was looking in world builder (Shaka save). It's from an slightly earlier revision than the current one and I actually reloaded it under the latest revision and it worked, but instead of Feudal Contract taking them 1 turn it appears to be taking 3 now...? I'm really confused.

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Also in my current game in the latest revision I noticed that my archery units north of Kyoto usually do not gain experience from attacking barbarians except the very odd time. I attached this save too (Tokugawa Save).

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Love the new use for great artists btw! Very cool idea! The mods looking great and although it's not a full release its very enjoyable to play.

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Just one thing that has been bugging me tho is how much of a powerhouse France is in every game on the Large RI Map. Every game France invades Antium right away, smashes through Germany then the rest of Europe, and wonder hogs until late into the Renaissance. I think if somehow Rome was better able to put up a decent fight early on this would mostly be solved. Minimally, it would give Germany and Greece some time to build up before they are forced to face an extremely powerful France.

They only times I have not witnessed this is when Spain and France go to war early on and I supply Spain with bronze then as France weakens other civs begin to declare war on France and I supply them with any military resources they are lacking and stop giving Spain bronze. My goal is to cause a massive stalemate.

I'm not suggesting giving Spain back their copper spawn because then they would be overpowered again. Even in this situation where France has a larger army and more cities it is still possible for Spain to completely conquer France then Europe if you give them bronze for too long.

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Edit: In my current game it's 724 AD and France has conquered Europe, has built 90% of the wonders, and has just taken St. Petersberg and Moscow.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Hey, I have a small idea:

Let's give the warrior a big malus against animal (or give animals a big boost against the warrior) so one should be dependant on his scouts for very early exploration, which makes sense. Those scouts would quickly be wiped out after the barbarians start spawning real fighting units. So you won't be able to take one warrior unit across the whole map, contacting 10 other civilization by the year of 3200 B.C. (as I do). Making the exploration a bit difficult would make the game more realistic.

At first I liked your idea, but then I remembered that at higher difficulty levels, AI civs start with archers - basically, this change will only negatively impact human players, putting AI at an unfair advantage (well, more unfair than it is in anyway at higher levels ).

Ps: i can still see the berber town of Garama and it's surrounding at the beginning of the game. I know it's not a top priority, but if you have some free time someday... ^_^

Oops, that little thing...

Yeah, the documentation on the new logistics promotions will be helpful when it comes out.

What I know:

There's two types, Logistics and Urban Logistics.

Each type has different increases based off tech. You can see this if you look up the tech in the civliopedia, and I think it also might be visible in the mouseover in the tech screen.

I don't remember any of the earlier age ones, but I'm pretty sure City Rights gives +1 Urban Logistics. I think maybe Bronze Working gives +1 Logistics? At work so I can't check.

The SVN version of manual will be updated for that, and we will likely have some interface hints. Basically, you explained everything right. The limit increases only with techs, and it starts with 5 outside cities, and 7 inside them.

I checked to see if it was a GP rushing it. I didn't see any, but I may have missed him while I was looking in world builder (Shaka save). It's from an slightly earlier revision than the current one and I actually reloaded it under the latest revision and it worked, but instead of Feudal Contract taking them 1 turn it appears to be taking 3 now...? I'm really confused.

Thanks, that will be checked.

Also in my current game in the latest revision I noticed that my archery units north of Kyoto usually do not gain experience from attacking barbarians except the very odd time. I attached this save too (Tokugawa Save).

WAD. Barbarians now have an experience cap (back, like in vanilla), but it can be increased through anti-barbarian promos.

Just one thing that has been bugging me tho is how much of a powerhouse France is in every game on the Large RI Map. Every game France invades Antium right away, smashes through Germany then the rest of Europe, and wonder hogs until late into the Renaissance. I think if somehow Rome was better able to put up a decent fight early on this would mostly be solved. Minimally, it would give Germany and Greece some time to build up before they are forced to face an extremely powerful France.

Well yeah, France currently is basically hit or miss - they will either conquer or be obliterated. Actually, that's a bit of a mystery to me, as all French leaders, however peaceful they were initially programmed to be, tend to behave like omnicidal maniacs, second only to Mongols, and I'm not even sure about them. I've yet to find the reason for such behaviour.

 

[Pindrus]

Thank you, this mod is amazing. I've probably played it more than BtS or Civ5...

A few minor bugs/questions:

-Possible to allow Esc to shut advisor windows?
-Rite of Passage 'pedia links are circular/broken
-When an enemy pillages, I get a message "A mine has been destroyed" but it was really a quarry they blew up?
-"Enter Worldbuilder?" prompted when trying to EXIT worldbuilder
-Roadbuilding is a prereq for both trade and tolls&taxes, where it really only needs to be a prereq for trade
-slaves don't seem to be able to build unique buildings (or at least some of them? I was playing as roman and they couldn't build latifudum
-Theater of Dionysus should also give bonus commerce to French wineries in addition to standard wineries (presuming)
-Jesus is a Roman GProphet??? that is just so historically inaccurate, though I can see the argument for it, not a big deal but I just did a double-take when I saw that

Thanks!

 

[Ahnarras]

So it's link to new tech? Well, that's good to know
As i'm asking newby question, i have another one about the "aid" promotion. Let's say i have a warrior on the same tile as 2 guy with bow. Do this warrior have only one time the bonus of the ranged aid, or do it stack?
I'm asking as, if i select the whole pack the icon as a number, but if i select him alone it doesn't, so i'm not sure...

Darkphoenix: thanks for all the tips, but i knew that already ^^
My main problem is that i'm playing the peaceful way, never starting a war, building very few army.. and even on noble setting, it's hard to survive this way

Thanks for the answer

 

[civman110]

WAD. Barbarians now have an experience cap (back, like in vanilla), but it can be increased through anti-barbarian promos.

That's good to know.

Well yeah, France currently is basically hit or miss - they will either conquer or be obliterated. Actually, that's a bit of a mystery to me, as all French leaders, however peaceful they were initially programmed to be, tend to behave like omnicidal maniacs, second only to Mongols, and I'm not even sure about them. I've yet to find the reason for such behaviour.

That's quite odd. Perhaps they are choosing to go for a conquest victory very early on since they have all of the necessary resources for their military and powerful early units?

I found Spain used to behave like that until you removed their copper. Now you're not constantly worried about them unless they have the opportunity to conquer France, or are given bronze early on. Then they will go on an absolute rampage through Europe. Then again Carlos V is quite an aggressive and difficult leader to deal with by default.

Any idea why Rome always loses Antium to France very early? Or, is that just happening to me? Just looking at this mod with Romes strong Classical units and great starting location it's quite confusing as to how France manages to terrorize Rome during this period. It appears that the Romans would be the obvious victors, but in practice surprisingly this isn't the case.

 

[Darkphoenix]

So it's link to new tech? Well, that's good to know
As i'm asking newby question, i have another one about the "aid" promotion. Let's say i have a warrior on the same tile as 2 guy with bow. Do this warrior have only one time the bonus of the ranged aid, or do it stack?

This one took a little wrangling, but I think i see what you are asking.

First, there are different levels of promotion aid. A unit will only have one level of a promotion aid per type so he can have Ranged Aid I, or Ranged Aid II, but not both. The level of aid is determined by the amount of the type of aid's base power (so 2x archers = 2x3=6 power), divided by the amount of the units base power (warrior = 2), so that would be 6/2=3. So level III aid. (Which is the max, there is no level IV aid. Well, there's the fort one but that's different.).

Note it is base power it is based off of, not the stated power level, I made the archers take 50% damage so they were only 1.5 power to test if this would lower the aid, and it did not.

Except that for some reason my calculations fall apart when I have a single longbowman and an archer on a tile and the archer gets Ranged Aid III even though that should only be 2.33, and not 3. But it's a good rule of thumb at least! Maybe difference in tech levels of the units do something? I sadly cannot read the XML well enough to know if I am even looking in the right place to start reading the code.

I'm asking as, if i select the whole pack the icon as a number, but if i select him alone it doesn't, so i'm not sure...

I just did a test with world builder to see if I can see what you are talking about. I think what you were seeing is this: You select the warrior alone, you see he has Ranged Aid III, a single grey promotion box. But if you were to select all 3 units (1 warrior, 2 archers), you will now see three promotions - Assault Aid I (2), Ranged Aid I (2), and Ranged Aid III. This is because when multiple units are selected, it shows all the promotions held by all units, and the number of units that have that promotion. So in this case, each of the two archers is getting Assault Aid I, and Ranged Aid I, (the archers only count the other archer, not themselves so 3/3=1).

I'm not exactly what the bottom ratio is for a single level of aid, in this example the Archers still were getting Assault Aid I even though 2/3 =0.66, but a Longbowman with 2/7 = 0.29, does not get the Assault Aid 1.

Darkphoenix: thanks for all the tips, but i knew that already ^^
My main problem is that i'm playing the peaceful way, never starting a war, building very few army.. and even on noble setting, it's hard to survive this way

Thanks for the answer

Yeah, it's sad, the only "peaceful" games I have been able to play on higher levels have been Austronesia and England, having your cities not be attackable by the AI except by sea really lowers their aggressiveness towards you. Without expanding a lot, it's hard to reach that level of power needed to dissuade your neighbors from attacking. And one you have that power, why, that civ's city looks so nice with that luxury good you don't have and he's being a jerk and not wanting to trade it, so let's just take that ONE city and oops I conquered the entire continent again.

 

[Darkphoenix]

Just an annoying thing, still using r4557:

Spoiler :

This is my build option right now. So many choices. After carefully going through them, I see that most of them are feasibly different even if say Yeoman and Pistolier are pretty similar and Pistolier is basically better in all respects, there are going to be times when one option is better and other times when the other option is better (lots of enemy Horse Archers), and so I have to admit it's in the best interests of the player to leave the options available so they can make the decision.

However, I cannot figure out why I should have the option to build Thegn (Swordman) or Norman Swordsman (Medieval Swordsman) (fallen just below onto the third line in the above screenshot). They both can upgrade to the same unit, require the same resources, and one is just plain better. Once you can build Medieval Swordsmen, the other option should be removed, like Archers when you can build a Longbowman, or Spearmen when you can build Pikemen.

The clutter from all the different units is both a wonderful and terrible thing, so any time there's these extras it would be nice to clear them out.

Edit: Also, Pistoliers can get the Marksmanship promotion line from the "Trained Archers" Doctrine. This might be fine from a game mechanics stand point, but it does seem a little odd flavorwise that Pistoliers can get the bonus, but not other gun using units.

Edit2: Oh, and found an amusing error on the Huge World Map:

Spoiler :

Somehow the Iron has been covered by Sea Ice and so is impassable! This seems a bit odd that the Iron would be covered by Sea Ice and be impassable, pretty sure that's a bug, don't see a reason to have Iron there otherwise.

Not as sure, is the fact that there's sea ice a little further north and east, as well as scattered around other places on Greenland. Can you somehow Break Ice with land units once you get to Combustion Engine? Deliberately trying to block off access and WAD?

 

[Ahnarras]

Wow, thanks a lot for the deep explanation Darkphoenix

I started a game this evening, and so far it's going good. I was in war with Ethiopa and Jew (not sure about the name or if it's correct to say that in english or not?), as it is pretty much always the case (and if it's not Ethiopa, it's Nubia).
But, for once, Nubia teamed with me, shielding me from Ethiopa long enough so i can take Jerusalem. Pretty fun game, maybe for once i will be able to see the middle age ^_^

 

[civman110]

I like the idea of cfeyyaz

I'm still struggling on the big world map, always playing as egyptian, and i hope someday i will make it to the middle age. Always end up in war on one side, then having someone else coming in my back >,<

Yeah, the AI is notorious for back stabbing you while you're at war. Especially if you hold a valuable resource that they don't have, or if they have expanded as much as they possible can already. The only ways I have been able to defend/prevent this kind of attack is by either having a much larger army than my neighbors (even then it's not guaranteed), or by conquering an area where it would be very difficult for the AI to attack me from behind my front lines.

ie. Controlling all of Western Europe, or the entire Middle East and making sure I keep choke points like Jerusalem and the area between the Black Sea and Mediterranean well fortified.

This strategy requires some early game conquering, but then it's much easier to defend a potential sneak attack while allocating the vast majority of your units to your front lines. Usually I rush for archery then begin invading my nearest neighbors.

However, I cannot figure out why I should have the option to build Thegn (Swordman) or Norman Swordsman (Medieval Swordsman) (fallen just below onto the third line in the above screenshot). They both can upgrade to the same unit, require the same resources, and one is just plain better. Once you can build Medieval Swordsmen, the other option should be removed, like Archers when you can build a Longbowman, or Spearmen when you can build Pikemen.

The clutter from all the different units is both a wonderful and terrible thing, so any time there's these extras it would be nice to clear them out.

I like having this option.

I'm not sure if this applies to your situation, but often one unit is cheaper to build and if I'm in desperate need of more units quickly I will pump out many of the inferior unit, rather than only a handful of the superior unit of that class. Also sometimes you can only build one of those units with iron, while the other can be built with bronze, or iron.

 

[Darkphoenix]

I'm not sure if this applies to your situation, but often one unit is cheaper to build and if I'm in desperate need of more units quickly I will pump out many of the inferior unit, rather than only a handful of the superior unit of that class.

True enough, I've certainly switched to build the levy class units because I could build one per two turns vs the "main" type of unit once every 3, and I had an invasion hitting my city in 4 turns. That's a scenario where the option may still be worth it.

Also sometimes you can only build one of those units with iron, while the other can be built with bronze, or iron.

You can still build Militia even in the Renaissance if the city doesn't have access to resources. Like, just for example, you traveled across the ocean in a Caravel, then declared war on the minor nations in South America that you made contact with, and then peaced out with them for their cities and world maps since they were so afraid of you even though you don't have the tech yet to transport units across the ocean...

 

[civman110]

You can still build Militia even in the Renaissance if the city doesn't have access to resources. Like, just for example, you traveled across the ocean in a Caravel, then declared war on the minor nations in South America that you made contact with, and then peaced out with them for their cities and world maps since they were so afraid of you even though you don't have the tech yet to transport units across the ocean...

Hah, I never thought of that! I like that idea. I'll definitely have to try that out in my next game.

What I've always done is build a city on Cuba, invade Florida for tobacco, then take Central America.

 

[teks]

I'm playing through Realism Invictus for the second time now as the Japanese monarch difficulty.

I really wanted to play a civ with a powerful amphibious unit, and the Wokou did not disappoint. That unit is right on the fringe of being overpowered, and easily beats the kensai for best Japanese unit in the game. Gets amphibious and city raider 1 right from the start? Even longbows struggle to fend them off on the city walls. I ended up training up all 6 to quite elite status fighting all 95%+ battles against fortified coastal cities.

Again, I'm completely surprised by the level of detail and thought that went into everything. I never got copper early enough to build war galleys, and it felt kind of right. I had weak trade ships, and ridiculously powerful pirates. I took to building quite a few in order to retain the naval supremacy I needed. Then I notice later on that my elite soldiers, who are naturally the Kensai, and Wokou, will remain dated for quite a while. This leaves me with this strange mix of dated elite samurai, and inexperienced early riflemen. How wonderfully Japanese.

I found the Japanese to be really good at attacking coastal cities early on, pillaging them, and loading back onto the ships before the enemy can counter. Sadly, invading the mainland cripples their economy incredibly quickly. I've been abusing the liberate colony feature to both create a buffer, and avoid this ridiculous maintenance. Some of the AI favors specific units to the point of insanity. The Choson built hundreds of light and heavy horsemen, and never built a naval vessel. Despite their ridiculously superior numbers I ended up the victor just by building their counters, and abusing the Wokou.

One problem I'm having is runaway civs. Dravidia has hit 22 cities now, and never fought a war that I know of. They just keep colonizing empty islands like crazy. I've got to level with them before the samurai go obsolete because they are in second place, and in danger of running off by the industrial era. I don't know how I can hold out against both dravida, and Khmer together, but I'm hoping a quick Wokou blitz on their islands will win me while the Kensai hold the defenses.

Ridiculously fun and challenging. Its a shame there isn't more information on the playstyle of the various civs. I can only play so many games.

 

[Darkphoenix]

One problem I'm having is runaway civs. Dravidia has hit 22 cities now, and never fought a war that I know of. They just keep colonizing empty islands like crazy. I've got to level with them before the samurai go obsolete because they are in second place, and in danger of running off by the industrial era. I don't know how I can hold out against both dravida, and Khmer together, but I'm hoping a quick Wokou blitz on their islands will win me while the Kensai hold the defenses.

Ridiculously fun and challenging. Its a shame there isn't more information on the playstyle of the various civs. I can only play so many games.

Thankfully the AI is not as good as the player when it comes to naval stuff, but if I recall correctly, the Dravidians have seafaring, which gives makes their ships immune to first strikes, as well as giving them +2 first strikes. Which means that any straight up naval battle will be overwhelmingly in their favor, and you'd have to make sure you can get the troops off loaded before their fleets can hit yours, otherwise you might lose your elite troops before they even reach shore.

 

[teks]

Well, so far the Dravidians are just getting pushed over. I think they are having some logistical problems. On their front I have my vassals pitted against his vassal, and I have a pretty strong and well-rounded ground army sitting in my vassals forward-most base which sits at the dravidian border where I expect his main forces to focus. If all goes well they will fizzle against the land army while the elite navy squad conquers his surrounding territories.
My own front has a skeletal defense however, so, if they actually manage to figure out proper navy tactics I'd be in a lot of trouble.

Japan kind of abuses the incompetence of the AI, but they are still much fun to play. Greece is a good time too. What other civilizations do you guys like to play a lot? how are the native americans? I imagine they must be ridiculously difficult to play on monarch. I also thought egypt would be pretty fun, but havne't had the time to play them either.

 

[civman110]

What other civilizations do you guys like to play a lot? how are the native americans? I imagine they must be ridiculously difficult to play on monarch. I also thought egypt would be pretty fun, but havne't had the time to play them either.

Aztecs and Incas are pretty cool to play, but it is very difficult to win the game on any of the world maps since by the time the old world makes contact with you, you're horribly behind technology wise.

I like adding the Celts to Ireland and playing as them and either invading England, or France as soon as possible. They have some really cool units and leaders. The RI team really did a great job in piecing together several different Celtic groups in a way that makes sense. Makes for a tough early game tho.

The Carthaginians are a lot of fun especially up until the middle ages. England has a lot of cool units throughout the game. Germany has some great WWI and WWII units. Japan is one of my favorites to play because of how unique their units and buildings are. Persia is lots of fun. Zulus are a really cool civ, but due to their early units and their starting location it can be quite a difficult game unless you conquer Egypt and Ethiopia early. Russia has a lot of super cool and unique units as well.

 

[Nitrah]

I have just started a thread for a "Help me beat Emperor" game with RI in the strategy and tips forum.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12906884#post12906884