Realism Invictus

[Ahnarras]

Little question about knight / foot-knight : it seems that you need to have the Feodal Aristocracy doctrine on in order to be able to build them (at least according to the Civlopedia, I'm 10 turns before finishing the research of plate armor).
What happens if you build a few of those units then switch out of that doctrine ? Do they stay, or will they disappear/transform like slaves ?

(I'm on an older SVN so the recent changes to that doctrine won't apply to my game).
Thanks in advance !

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Can't think of anything I've done to the files beyond that, unless dropping C2C manually into my mods folder changed anything.

That might actually be it. Don't know how, but I got some reports of C2C somehow messing with other mods, RI included. Could never reproduce it on my side though, but for others it was even outright XML loading errors.

It's turn 12, how did Japan get all this cool stuff? I want it too.

AI gets extra starting units on higher difficulty levels.

Little question about knight / foot-knight : it seems that you need to have the Feodal Aristocracy doctrine on in order to be able to build them (at least according to the Civlopedia, I'm 10 turns before finishing the research of plate armor).
What happens if you build a few of those units then switch out of that doctrine ? Do they stay, or will they disappear/transform like slaves ?

They stay, same as if you had a resource you needed for them and then lost it.

 

[FlimsyWhimsy]

Hello,

I'm having trouble with revolutions in v.3.72c. Every game, I eventually get an error pop-up with Python exception from the Revolutions.py script. I did a little digging and found out that inside startUprising function there is a problem with initialization of CivInfo variable, which leads to CivInfo being None and call CivInfo.getDescription() failing. I don't know why does that happen, as it appears to me that CivInfo always gets initialized before use, so my only hypothesis is that the call gc.getCivilizationInfo(iCiv) returns None for some reason.

I would appreciate any ideas regarding the nature of this bug or where to go with this (maybe this script isn't developed by RI team, then I would like to know where can I get help). I can also debug this further and come back with more info on the matter.

 

[Takofloppa]

I remember I've seen this error and the reason was exactly what you just described - there was a particular path where CivInfo (or at least I think it was it, my memory is poor to say the best) wasn't correctly initialized and a good chunk of revolution initialisation was failing to execute due to an exception. I remember I fixed it at one point, but not sure if Walter eventually included it, I have to take a look again.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I remember I've seen this error and the reason was exactly what you just described - there was a particular path where CivInfo (or at least I think it was it, my memory is poor to say the best) wasn't correctly initialized and a good chunk of revolution initialisation was failing to execute due to an exception. I remember I fixed it at one point, but not sure if Walter eventually included it, I have to take a look again.

Yep, let's circle back on this one, you and me - I also recall us discussing this, and I thought it was done with for 3.72c already.

 

[TheBirdMan]

Then it didn't work anymore - I'm no longer abel to "cancel" wars that cause the game to hang, as the video memory runs out.

Still I can't complain..... If I have counted correctly, there are 264 cities ± (ALT+241 ) a few and 14-15 active nations + 5 barbarian cities on the map. Also almost 1100 turns have been played. That's pretty good I say.

Now back to the drawing board (read WorldBuilder). There are clearly too many decent places/tiles for cities that need to be exposed to a little global warming (more desert, more swamps, less forest..... something like that).

Spoiler WorldBuilder map :

 

[Alekseyev_]

It's interesting how the scale has decreased over the civ games. Civ 3 has a much more zoomed out map, a city cap of 512 cities, 31 max civs (+barbs) by default without DLL work required... map sizes far larger too. Civ4 is still a middle ground compared to the later games with their 3-5 city civs, but it's still a little sad sometimes to see the lesser scale compared to 3, as someone who bounces between the two games every now and then.

 

[Noyyau]

Huge World Map (Noyyau'd), 3.72 "c" (manual hotfix) + my own little tweaks.
Egypt, Emperor, Realistic speed. Revolutions on (still nothing of note happened). Leader change active. AI Plays to Win active. Victories active: Conquest, Space, Time.

Ancient and Classical history: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/realism-invictus.411799/page-673#post-16827520

The time is now Turn 900, which would like to be the year 1180 AD , though the tech level began surpassing RL history some time in the medieval era. Emperor-bonus AIs research quite fast.

First some history:

The Medieval era was marked by two very long wars against Rome.
In the 1st the Romans sent huge stacks of Medium Cavalries a very long way around the Caspian Sea, through Bactrian territory, as Armenia didn't have Open Borders with Rome, having recently lost a war against them. Most of the battles were fought near Babylon and in the mountains along the border with Bactria.
Conquered those two cities in Lebanon-Syria (former Mesopotamian, Roman conquered), expanded along the coast up to India to eliminate the last remnant of Arabia, stayed there for the luxury resources.
In the course of the 1st Roman War no one attempted any naval invasion, me for lack of troops (or rather, lack of economy to pay for both defensive troops in Mesopotamia and an expeditionary force at the same time), the Romans… who knows. It had been a tempting idea, a sudden siege of Rome would have been interesting.
During this 1st Roman War, Egypt realized the need for a sizeable heavy cavalry force, as slow moving infantry was not able to deploy quickly enough where needed, now that the Empire was much larger than in the past.

Good thing then that Baibars can build Knights without Feudal Aristocracy! And Late Horse Archers with Flanking II and III are a nice complement to them.
There were also many minor engagements which I won't detail here. A couple of the more notable were the conquest and subjugation of Sahel/Mali (conquering most cities, Capitulation, then "liberating" them back for a Friendly vassal, though quite a useless one as it later turned out), and the eviction of the Scandinavians from the Persian coast (they had contributed to Persia's demise earlier), so that Egypt could have contiguous borders from Mesopotamia to India.
After the end of the 1st RW, Armenia peacefully vassalled to Egypt, having lost a few cities to Bactria in the recent past, though under such cultural pressure that soon after one revolted back, and the other two have massive garrisons to stave off the revolts. Though with Emperor bonuses, I guess it's not much of an economic problem for Bactria.

A few images of the 1st Roman War:

Spoiler :

The 2nd Roman War was fought mostly in Armenian territory, to liberate the cities lost to the Romans prior to the 1st RW. It was also the occasion to eliminate the last remnant of the exiled Mesopotamians in Crimea and the last remnant of the exiled Persians in India.
The bulk of the war was a careful campaign with Sentry Horse Archers for scouting, careful sorties with Knights, aggressive road building in Armenian territory and General-supported healing in Armenian cities, leading to victories in "Ukraine". This area has been so constantly fought over in this game, that no one has any real claim to the place (each tile has 5-10% culture from 10+ civs).
And then!
On a whim, sent a scout HA towards "Petroburgum" (former Russian capital), was amazed by the minimal garrison, marched up all available Knights, and despite sorely felt losses, conquered it to discover an incredible 3 (THREE) settled Great Scientists!
The conquest of Petroburgum gave me Arquebuses, ushering in the Reneissance for Egypt, and a change of leader to Ptolemy Soter (Phi,Hum), who promptly renamed everything more "Hellenistically" (I rename all the cities at era/leader change, it's quite immersive), and decided to end the war (the Romans enthusiastically accepted). Thus begins a long Golden Age.

Minor events during the 2nd RW were forays into Europe (Hungary being a Roman vassal at the time), the Bactrian conquest of Poland, the demise of the Scandinavians (who, unbeknownst to me, had already been decimated by the Celts/Scots, who now own the whole of Britain and Scandinavia).



Images of the 2nd Roman War:

Spoiler :

 

[TheBirdMan]

It's interesting how the scale has decreased over the civ games. Civ 3 has a much more zoomed out map, a city cap of 512 cities, 31 max civs (+barbs) by default without DLL work required... map sizes far larger too.

The issue isn't about what the max sizes - in theory - are. I'm sure I'm not nearly close to the max.limits for CiV 4. But if the gameengine can't handle it, then.......

I would - if I had reduced the graphics requirements in the game - have been able to continue my game for a shorter or longer time, since the savegame file itself isn't much larger than about 3MB at this point. But I know that I can't play the game to the end - and so I might as well make the necessary changes to the map now and then try again (with another nation since this is made as a scenario).

 

[Noyyau]

During the Reneissance Egypt flourished, spread Islam to whoever could be reached, established a couple more cities on the empty Persian coast, kept up diplomacy (i.e. begging and bullying for money), sent envoys to Asia.
All the accumulated Great Scientists created their Great Works in the best Egyptian cities (Thebai the capital, Babylon, Lithopolis to boost the settled GSs), Artists created their Great Works where more culture was needed, mainly on the border with Armenia.

With the gift of cities in former Ukraine, Armenia "liberated" itself from Egyptian protection (and saved me lots of money in city maintenance, vassals are horribly expensive on the HWM), and promptly submitted to the Austronesians (who already had "taken in" Portugal and Spain).
If only I could get rid of Sahel (Mali), which has proven to be quite a useless vassal so far... I hoped they'd recover and do research for me, but alas, it didn't happen.

Overview of the Egyptian Republic in T900:

Spoiler :

(forgot to screenshot Lithopolis, sorry)

About Austronesia: with Astronomy and Carracks their true extension has been revealed, and they are MASSIVE. Consistently first in score, 30+ cities, wildly rich, somehow no revolts (AI bonuses, I guess), and yet also among the tech leaders.
I fear and at the same time can't wait for a massive future war against them.
So far though, despite relations always "Annoyed" due to religion, trade has flourished. They have expanded into continental Asia reaching up to India, always at war with someone, though never Egypt (yet). Saved by always someone else closer and weaker than me?

Egyptian Carracks crossed the oceans and discovered America, or should I call it Aztechia, for it's the Aztecs that dominate the continent. They destroyed the Maians and are currently gobbling up the northern natives, with cities from Panama to Alaska!
Despite the isolation and the number of cities, they are almost on par technologically with the rest of the world.

Surprisingly, I even got the circumnavigation bonus! This despite the Austronesians and Portuguese (at least, possibly Rome too) having Carracks long before me.

Performance: this is by far the most massive Civ game I've every played! And for most of the time, everything has been quick and stable.
I began having MAFs, or straight crashes, around T850 or so, and those only when alt-tabbing or opening WB (which seems to be quite resource intensive).
Only from T900 onwards the game is prone to random crashes even without alt-tabbing nor WB. I'm now saving before every turn end, just in case.
I suppose I should start studying the various threads detailing MAF-mitigating practices.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

It's interesting how the scale has decreased over the civ games. Civ 3 has a much more zoomed out map, a city cap of 512 cities, 31 max civs (+barbs) by default without DLL work required... map sizes far larger too. Civ4 is still a middle ground compared to the later games with their 3-5 city civs, but it's still a little sad sometimes to see the lesser scale compared to 3, as someone who bounces between the two games every now and then.

I have just recently watched a nice video that detailed how Civ 4 refined the core Civ concepts and how there were some tradeoffs to be made to streamline the design - and that the scale was one of those. Civ 4 works much better at its "native" scale, which is indeed smaller than that of Civ 3. Having been with the series since Civ 1, I remember mentally struggling with the smaller scales at first - I wouldn't go below Huge map size. But after a while it just clicked with me - lots of stuff simply works better on a moderate map size.

That said, further shrinkage in Civ 5+, while again dictated by the design choices, reduced the game from a 4X to a kind of a board game for me. People cite hexes as the major design change between 4 and 5, but TBH hexes don't matter at all - it'd be rather trivial to implement them in Civ 4 without changing any gameplay mechanics and even most codebase - for all intents and purposes hexes are identical to tile rows shifted 1/2 tile every other row:

A much more fundamental design change was the switch to a focus on adjacency bonuses (1UPT, while a separate design change, is essentially the same approach to combat). This informed a lot of other specific design decisions, and overall, this was the major contributor away from the 4X feel.

I would - if I had reduced the graphics requirements in the game - have been able to continue my game for a shorter or longer time, since the savegame file itself isn't much larger than about 3MB at this point. But I know that I can't play the game to the end - and so I might as well make the necessary changes to the map now and then try again (with another nation since this is made as a scenario).

I suppose I should start studying the various threads detailing MAF-mitigating practices.

Do both of you realise that unpacking assets seems to prevent MAFs (at a cost of long initial loading times)?

 

[TheBirdMan]

Do both of you realise that unpacking assets seems to prevent MAFs (at a cost of long initial loading times)?

I can't say I realise - but I do believe in your statement, which I have read at an earlier time. And I also remember the - in my opinion extreme - loadingtime, when I started a SVN-version a few years back...... 20-25 min or so if I remember correct. I don't know how fast a new 'puter can do it today, but I guess it's much-much faster.

 

[Takofloppa]

It takes a few minutes max in my case (on SSD obviously + decent CPU), and sometimes I have to run Civ multiple times while recompiling and testing something, so on modern hardware it isn't really an issue.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

+1 to that; on an SSD it's definitely under 5 minutes.

 

[TheBirdMan]

next task must be "find" 8-9-10K d.kr. then (I simply do not like those small, massive branded PCs that various supermarkets have as a "cheap offer").
.

 

[Noyyau]

Will investigate how to unpack assets as time permits. Hopefully load times will be tolerable (got SSDs, not the latest cpu however).

 

[Alekseyev_]

I have just recently watched a nice video that detailed how Civ 4 refined the core Civ concepts and how there were some tradeoffs to be made to streamline the design - and that the scale was one of those. Civ 4 works much better at its "native" scale, which is indeed smaller than that of Civ 3. Having been with the series since Civ 1, I remember mentally struggling with the smaller scales at first - I wouldn't go below Huge map size. But after a while it just clicked with me - lots of stuff simply works better on a moderate map size.

That said, further shrinkage in Civ 5+, while again dictated by the design choices, reduced the game from a 4X to a kind of a board game for me. People cite hexes as the major design change between 4 and 5, but TBH hexes don't matter at all - it'd be rather trivial to implement them in Civ 4 without changing any gameplay mechanics and even most codebase - for all intents and purposes hexes are identical to tile rows shifted 1/2 tile every other row:
View attachment 736037
A much more fundamental design change was the switch to a focus on adjacency bonuses (1UPT, while a separate design change, is essentially the same approach to combat). This informed a lot of other specific design decisions, and overall, this was the major contributor away from the 4X feel.

That's a good point. I could never really get into the Civ 5+ style of things. I think it's safe to say that "classic" Civ in its design peaked in Civ 4.
The 1 UPT being so weird is also a side effect of the reduced scale. 1 UPT on Civ3 sized maps would work a lot better than 1 UPT on Civ 5-7 sized maps. (Though ideally you need even more tiles, far more probably.) Had such great hope for hexes vs squares and how the latter favour diagonal movement, but in the end hex-movement is just weird in its own way, with "straight" movement in some directions being more equal to a snaking pattern.

I'm actually thinking back... I remember one of my bigger gripes when starting to play Civ 4 was how the "traits" were no longer a civilisation thing, but now attached to leaders. Never liked this focus on persons over the more grand and abstract civilisations when it came to this stuff. It's undoubtedly good for gameplay, though, allowing this great mix and match of civs and (leader-) traits.

 

[Ahnarras]

Do both of you realise that unpacking assets seems to prevent MAFs (at a cost of long initial loading times)?

Can confirm, my savefile sits currently at around 4,5MB and I've yet to encounter a single MAF crash. Another user here told me in DM that his game (with packed textures) was crashing almost every 5 to 10 turns once his savefile hits 3,5MB.
The easiest way to play unpacked would be to play SVN. And I've never had a loading time of more than a few minutes (3-5, perhaps ?), usually the game is running by the time I'm back with a cup of coffee

 

[PKSRoman]

I can build "Enlightened Absolutism" before "Enlightenment" Tech

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I can build "Enlightened Absolutism" before "Enlightenment" Tech

Yeah, I already moved it from Absolutism tech to Enlightenment tech in SVN, logically it should require it.