Realism Invictus

Still, it’s not entirely historically accurate - there was only about a one-century gap between their founding dates in this run (Christianity in the 5th century, Islam in the 6th).
:crazyeye:yeah it happens to me that sometimes some advancements are made a bit before (rarely after) the right date, but that's alright for me because syncing it perfectly would take a lot of effort and probably compromising other things.

I once had riflemen at the 1700 (granted, it was one of my first games and I was in noble), and that felt well to me, same for many other techs. But some things usually sync well for example it's very normal for me to finally start exploring overseas between late 1300 and early 1500, or to start medieval age by 400 or 500 AD.

I don't think it's something important at all, time is there more for storytelling and keeping track of the ingame world more than anything else :) if I'm at the end of the tech tree I know well I'm in the late 1990s and 2000s AD even if the time would say were in the 3000BC. Time only really starts to take importance with the ahead of time setting, and even then it still feels grounded to me, because whether we like it or not time goes on so the penalties will eventually turn off, besides, if you feel you're going wayyy too fast, perhaps it's about time to change the difficulty! :queen:
 
Speaking of your mod's resources, your mod provides too little res in the map scripts when its the mod where having Timber or stone means youre behind or ahead. By alot.
And god forbid you start with iron/copper starvation.
 
It's not so much a difficulty thing as it is a roleplaying/intentional playing thing. For those that like the feeling of an organic, true historic development it makes sense to keep it hidden and play things as they fall. But for people that enjoy being deliberate (regardless of whether it's a high difficulty, or if they're optimizing), it's a negative experience, especially since you have to stare at it for the next 2000 turns/22 hours of gameplay.

Though I'm probably 65/35 on desiring the immersion and compelling modeling of history vs. seeking a pure cerebral challenge with a rewarding outcome for success, but to your point, why not consider this simply a risk to factor into the timing of your expansion? For instance, if I'm considering building Pyramids, I'll aim to ensure that I have Stoneworking researched before I even settle my second city so as to avoid that possible outcome. If everything was deterministically guaranteed or visible carte blanche, I (personally) don't think that would make for a more fun or exciting gameplay experience. As far as I know (and could be mistaken, here), the AI is ignorant of resource placement in lieu of the prerequisite technologies, themselves, and so prioritizing these to grab them does offer a positive experience if successful in doing that.

I also subjectively feel that the ancient era is an appropriate length, and the revisions last year to the early roster's strength really makes it feel more holistically-featured (in combat), since archers are not so passively reliable for defense anymore, skirmishers have a much healthier 3:strength:, and warband now arrive at the tail-end of the era, making warriors, militia, chariots, axemen and spearmen shine and take the stage much more frequently as viable options to build and use. The early exploration, land grabbing, religion founding, early wonder race and first rushes for conquest feel properly fleshed out and alive and well to me. Just curious, but what are you feeling is missing out on the "just getting started" sentiment?
 
A bit of a hot take here, but recently I've been losing patience with resources that aren't visible right away but are revealed in the ancient era. While there's an enjoyable dopamine hit from having those resources become revealed, there's a much more impactful disappointment when you found a city and ten turns later finish researching Stonecutting and regret not settling that city 1 tile to the right. They're all revealed early enough that getting visibility isn't a balance issue (as may be the case with resources revealed in the classical era or later), so unfortunate placing of ancient era cities feels like being the butt of an unfunny joke. Nobody gained anything, we just lost something.

Isn't that a way to counter the very popular start of "settlers / settlers / worker" ? If you are at 3 cities by turn 50 or so it means you already have a smallish kingdom to start the game with. Making it be at the cost of suboptimal placement of those cities seems fine to me.

As I am more of a turtle player myself, I will usually only found my second city around turn 150-200, often after having already a Wonder or two in my starting city. At that point, I'm way late to the party, but I also have a good knowledge of the map and the ressources available. It's a trade-off that suits me.

Obviously, it may be impossible to do on the highest difficulty where some of you guys play, and I guess that's the whole problem with balancing the Technology speed : a minmaxer with years of RI experience will know how to have an amazing :science: output, making him able to swallow the tech tree at the speed of light (and it is often the only way for him to compensate for all the bonuses the AI is getting on highest difficulties). On the other hand, a newish player will probably be slugged down to the point where his IG calendar will make no sense anymore. It's already what happens to every AI that is beat. You know, the one that lost one too many wars and is stuck with only 2 or 3 cities for the rest of the game, and is still ungabungaing spears and arrows while everyone else is running around playing with mortars.

At that point, I will go with letting Walter choose his favorite difficulty / speed settings / map size and adjust the research amount to whatever feels the best for that. Then if you want to go with a bigger/smaller map, or highest difficulty, you just have to forget about the IG calendar.

... And if Walter ever choosed to do so, I think it could be a valuable tips for the loading screen, so players know what a "standard map" is supposed to looks like. I'm pretty sure I remember him saying that the Noble difficulty (which is supposed to be the normal one, being the one at which the AI plays at) is not the one is working with for RI.
 
Just checked out latest v5531 on Large World Map, playing on Immortal, Realism speed.

I've realized there was tech cost balancing. Is it intended to have only 63 :science: for first tier techs (researched in 7 turns with 9 :science: per turn) and 77 :science: for second level (8 turns), third level Animal Husbandry 107 :science: (11 turns). Those numbers appear pretty low for me compared to previous games. You can complete AH in 18 turns basically, with a worker not being finished in that time.
 
Questions about culture: Since you can't build temples etc of non-state-religion, what is the best way to get a cultural victory- build lots of wonders? And if you aren't going for a cultural victory, what does culture in your "interior" cities do for you?
 
This may have been asked before, but I don't recall ever seeing this in the past: could someone explain to me what this fist icon indicates in the Military Advisor? Were new features from BUG imported any time in the past year or so, to have incorporated this?

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This may have been asked before, but I don't recall ever seeing this in the past: could someone explain to me what this fist icon indicates in the Military Advisor? Were new features from BUG imported any time in the past year or so, to have incorporated this?

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Theyre plotting. And that sometimes can be you. Theyre plotting and it has chance of being it you the target.
 
Theyre plotting. And that sometimes can be you. Theyre plotting and it has chance of being it you the target.


Ah, so this must be new (at least relative to when I started playing RI four years ago)! That, or I'm simply inobservant... :lol:

I do remember asking about the "plotting" visibility that BUG integrated sometime around 2022 I think, since it wasn't visible at the time, and remember being told that as of the time that it was integrated with RI, it was "frozen" and that newer BUG features weren't going to make it in due to likely incompatibilities. To those of you who know, is this something that requires a certain espionage threshold to become visible, and is it deliberately opaque as to who the target is?
 
is this something that requires a certain espionage threshold to become visible, and is it deliberately opaque as to who the target is?
1. No espionage involved. The information is always accessible in dialogue with AI (we have enough in our hands right now).
2. Yes, but usually not too hard to figure out yourself with some degree of confidence.

The missing fist was discussed in this thread earlier this year, at least for the scoreboard options, and @Walter Hawkwood confirmed it was a bug that would be fixed.
 
1. No espionage involved. The information is always accessible in dialogue with AI (we have enough in our hands right now).
2. Yes, but usually not too hard to figure out yourself with some degree of confidence.

The missing fist was discussed in this thread earlier this year, at least for the scoreboard options, and @Walter Hawkwood confirmed it was a bug that would be fixed.

Very helpful post, thank you. :)
 
On the note of this, is your deduction logic for determining who a target is simply relations and relative power, or do other factors (like proximity, shared religion in spite of total relations, etc.) factor in as well?
I would say all these factors but they should be boiled down to the attitude towards target (angry, cautious etc). Not sure about RI peace weight for each leader is the same as you can find in the strategy thread Know Your Enemy. Some leaders are not tolerant for border pressure for example. And sometimes the fist don’t appear if it’s a dagger attack or bribes involved.
 
Always happy to help. A question for you, as I am not on SVN, does the fist also appears on the scoreboard?
It is more convenient to have it there as you don’t have to check the military advisor each turn.

Yep, looks like it appears there as well (though likewise, I don't remember seeing it before). As to checking the military advisor, I agree, though I wonder if the "Threat Index" there is an accurate amalgam of whatever factors are considered relative to you, even if you can't see this meter between third parties? On the other hand, that could simply be a separate metric which doesn't correlate one to one. There is a lot of useful info in that advisor (such as showing who you can solicit to join your war or embargo a rival of yours, which strangely doesn't appear in the Foreign Advisor), and I don't check it as much as I should.

I would say all these factors but they should be boiled down to the attitude towards target (angry, cautious etc). Not sure about RI peace weight for each leader is the same as you can find in the strategy thread Know Your Enemy. Some leaders are not tolerant for border pressure for example. And sometimes the fist don’t appear if it’s a dagger attack or bribes involved.

Interesting, I will have to keep a tab on that, as I've never seen a dagger so far.
 
Yep, looks like it appears there as well (though likewise, I don't remember seeing it before). As to checking the military advisor, I agree, though I wonder if the "Threat Index" there is an accurate amalgam of whatever factors are considered relative to you, even if you can't see this meter between third parties? On the other hand, that could simply be a separate metric which doesn't correlate one to one. There is a lot of useful info in that advisor (such as showing who you can solicit to join your war or embargo a rival of yours, which strangely doesn't appear in the Foreign Advisor), and I don't check it as much as I should.



Interesting, I will have to keep a tab on that, as I've never seen a dagger so far.
Yeah, the military advisor is nice and think the Threat Index is towards you.

This thread has something about the dagger
Nice var name :lol: .....

iDagger is the "backstabbing" variable, right?
 
It took about 15 days to prepare a very good map (after my taste: 192*144 tiles with 14784 landtiles and 26Civs) - but I still expect that the time was well spent.

Latest ver. of SVN downloaded - I was a little surprised that it took almost 8 minutes to start the game for the first time with this version. But "OK" - if that's what it takes for a fully unpacked version to get a stable game, then so be it.


Changes to SVN - my absolute "most necessary" minimum changes:
:
Civs starts with 1 scout, 2 archers (and 1 settler - of course). I find 2 archers necessary to avoid too many nations being "lost" to the barbarians too early.
Distance between cities in this game: 5 tiles.
Lakes upto 49 tiles.
Cities can only be found on Grass-tiles or on tiles with access to fresh water (so no cities on coastal plain-, desert- or tundra-tiles). No changes for Snow (Ice), new cities can't be founded there at all.
Above changes are standard setup, as this map also will be used with my "normal" personal mod (sometime next year I guess).
Spoiler Screenshot 1 of the setup and 2 from WorldBuilder after the 1st 100 turns :

Civ4ScreenShot0203.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0204.JPG



Edit: P.s.: This map is made as a scenario - in the case here, this gives me "26 different games in 1" as I can choose to play what-ever nation I want (all nations are default Noble-level, I choose Monarch-level myself when starting a new game).
 
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Doesn't it heavily depend on the game's speed though? When I play on 0.5 it's pretty slow but STILL enjoyable (those games have tend to extend for far too long so it might not be suited for me though), when I play in realistic or higher speeds (haven't played the fastest though) it's cool and not what I'd exactly call "slow" either, and the pace between techs feels good as well as the time at which I get them, same for AIs.

Personally I think early game is as varied as middle and late game, I think they just have so different scopes/approaches that it might seem that they're very different, and they are different, but equally enjoyable.
Yes, but it isn't helped by the fact that RI is much slower than vanilla by default. While I agree that there is a certain kind of player expecting the whole game to last 1-2 hours, which is probably not the intended audience, I can also see how the slowest-paced part of the mod, being the very first one new players get to experience, can adversely affect their perceptions.
Still, it’s not entirely historically accurate - there was only about a one-century gap between their founding dates in this run (Christianity in the 5th century, Islam in the 6th).
Well, strictly speaking, that isn't too implausible in the historical context - both started as reform movements of the old Abrahamic faith, and were propelled to the status of a major religion by their specific historical contexts, which arose when they did in our history, but in a theoretical parallel history could occur with a completely different time gap. Even in "our" history, I could see the rise of Islam happening at a different opportune moment - say, if the prophet lived during the Crisis of the Third Century, Islamic conquests would have been just as plausible.
Speaking of your mod's resources, your mod provides too little res in the map scripts when its the mod where having Timber or stone means youre behind or ahead. By alot.
And god forbid you start with iron/copper starvation.
Allowing myself to quote myself from before, a resource that everyone has is a resource that might as well be removed entirely. Resources exist to exert pressure on players to procure them.
At that point, I will go with letting Walter choose his favorite difficulty / speed settings / map size and adjust the research amount to whatever feels the best for that. Then if you want to go with a bigger/smaller map, or highest difficulty, you just have to forget about the IG calendar.
That's inevitably already a big part of the approach. I cannot simultaneously test a broad variety of settings; I have to stick to one "model experiment", and only after that one runs according to my expectations, I go out and adjust all the other variables, inevitable with far less testing (as I simply do not have time to run dozens of hands-offs on each different map script, scenario, game speed etc). My "model experiment" is a large fractal map with the default settings and speed.
... And if Walter ever choosed to do so, I think it could be a valuable tips for the loading screen, so players know what a "standard map" is supposed to looks like. I'm pretty sure I remember him saying that the Noble difficulty (which is supposed to be the normal one, being the one at which the AI plays at) is not the one is working with for RI.
Not a bad idea; I'll do a major revision of the tips closer to the release date in any case.
I've realized there was tech cost balancing. Is it intended to have only 63 :science: for first tier techs (researched in 7 turns with 9 :science: per turn) and 77 :science: for second level (8 turns), third level Animal Husbandry 107 :science: (11 turns). Those numbers appear pretty low for me compared to previous games. You can complete AH in 18 turns basically, with a worker not being finished in that time.
Yep, the earliest techs have been sped up rather significantly, relatively speaking (though nothing in excess of 20% save for the very last tier). Basically, it affected the earliest and the latest techs the most. Also resulted in a smoother overall progression (though most of these "spikes" were already ironed out pre-3.72.

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Note that despite almost all tech price revisions being downward, there were also adjustments to overall tech rates, so that doesn't mean that all techs necessarily get researched quicker.
Questions about culture: Since you can't build temples etc of non-state-religion, what is the best way to get a cultural victory- build lots of wonders? And if you aren't going for a cultural victory, what does culture in your "interior" cities do for you?
My take would be to emphasise artists and works of art. And wonders, of course. As for "interior" culture, if you're playing with separatism on (not by default), it's important to keep your empire culturally homogenous. Otherwise, basically the same logic as in vanilla - or rather K-Mod, which increases the cultural "strategic depth", by making the culture of the cities not immediately on the border but still adjacent to it more impactful for the border pressure.
This may have been asked before, but I don't recall ever seeing this in the past: could someone explain to me what this fist icon indicates in the Military Advisor? Were new features from BUG imported any time in the past year or so, to have incorporated this?
Seems to have been explained nicely without my involvement.
As to checking the military advisor, I agree, though I wonder if the "Threat Index" there is an accurate amalgam of whatever factors are considered relative to you, even if you can't see this meter between third parties?
It's a rather obscure metric added by BUG mod, but in reality it is rather simple: the power ratio adjusted by relations, by a couple of other factors (such as having a defensive pact) and by the very same WHEOOH (the above-mentioned "fist"). I'm not sure whether it has much real utility, but it's there and it looks nice, so why not let it stay.
 

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