Realistic Civics

[The Turk]

I want to create a team of people interested in creating a modmod, to review some of the civics and make them more realistic. The biggest examples are that of Slavery and Monarchy, among many others. So if you are interested please say so, so I can start assembling this team. Here is something I've already done with slavery:

Slavery Civic:
High Upkeep
+2 Happiness
10% commerce in all your cities
-5% Culture

You can download this slavery civic change here

Just replace your old CIV4CivicInfos.xml file with this one. You can find this file in your:
..\Rise of Mankind\Assets\XML\GameInfo\... folder.

Thanks

 

[Afforess]

I want to create a team of people interested in creating a modmod, to review some of the civics and make them more realistic. The biggest examples are that of Slavery and Monarchy, among many others. So if you are interested please say so, so I can start assembling this team. Here is something I've already done with slavery:

I already wrote up a new set of "civics" I would like to make, if I ever could get my Diplomacy modifiers to work. Otherwise, everything else is pretty much ready.

I first decided that civics were a bad idea in general, and Departments, or Ministries, are really what the world uses. Departmental policies are really what shapes a countries politics, so I drew up a completely new set of "civics" using them.

Here's an indepth outline.

I'm responding to your other post here:

1. How do I change the Abraham Linoln quote for the Slavery tech to something else, where is that file?

In the Text folder in the XML. It's in one of the assorted files... Unless he didn't change it in RoM, in which case it would be in BTS's or Civ4's Assets/XML/Text folders. Using Notepad++ to search in multiple files should find it pretty fast.

2. How do I change it so that it causes a bit more instability nation wide, to balance the now newly created plus sides of slavery?

At the bottom of the civic XML files, there is a section for revolutions. They are all pretty self-explanatory, but if you have specific questions, I can answer them.

3. Coupled with the changes I will make to the stability is this balanced enough, or have I made Slavery too good of a civic?

First off, civics can't, at least not without some SDK modifications, give + happiness, only happiness in largest cities. I personally made the SDK modification to create a general nationwide happiness in my SDK, but the RoM SDK does not have it. (See the Modder's guide to Afforess's Modmod's for specific new XML lines I've added. See the Modiki for regular BTS XML lines.)

But, the direct response to your question is, yes, you have made it too powerful. The happiness boost will counter-act the revolutions boost, and nullify it. A +10% commerce boost is powerful, if my income is 200gold/turn, that's a 20 gold spike. Of course, you left out the "can whip" feature, but whipping has been so badly nerfed in RoM, it basically isn't ever worth doing.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I already wrote up a new set of "civics" I would like to make, if I ever could get my Diplomacy modifiers to work. Otherwise, everything else is pretty much ready.

I first decided that civics were a bad idea in general, and Departments, or Ministries, are really what the world uses. Departmental policies are really what shapes a countries politics, so I drew up a completely new set of "civics" using them.

Here's an indepth outline.
.....

Afforess, I keep meaning to respond to your civics replacement idea but keep getting side tracked. There are forms of social control/interaction which should be available from very early times. The main one is "consenses government" or altleast that is the modern term. Basically everyone sits around and discusses all changes to the way things are done now until everyone agrees. It is still being used by some so called primitive tribes today - very stable but negatives to science.

 

[Afforess]

Afforess, I keep meaning to respond to your civics replacement idea but keep getting side tracked. There are forms of social control/interaction which should be available from very early times. The main one is "consenses government" or altleast that is the modern term. Basically everyone sits around and discusses all changes to the way things are done now until everyone agrees. It is still being used by some so called primitive tribes today - very stable but negatives to science.

That's called Direct Democracy. I did include it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

That's called Direct Democracy. I did include it.

Except it is not available until democracy whereas what I am talking about should be available from the start of the RoM tech tree.

 

[Afforess]

Except it is not available until democracy whereas what I am talking about should be available from the start of the RoM tech tree.

True. It would need a new Executive option and Legislative option. Do you mind outlining what exactly you looking for? I'll add it if it's reasonable.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have decided to print off your list again and I will have a look at it and get back to you. Is the approprite thread? btw I like your idea in principle. I would like some of the "civics" to be conditional on other "civic" choices. Did you know that the "Classical Greeks" tried out hundreds of different forms of govenment.

 

[strategyonly]

I like the ideas, but for ME personally i will NEVER ever use any civic that has a
-, i cant stand anything that is taking away from what i am trying so hard to get more of, but of course thats just me.

 

[Afforess]

I have decided to print off your list again and I will have a look at it and get back to you. Is the appropriate thread?

I've hijacked this thread, so it is now.

btw I like your idea in principle. I would like some of the "civics" to be conditional on other "civic" choices.

I think I did that. See how some civics force other civics?

Did you know that the "Classical Greeks" tried out hundreds of different forms of govenment.

I had no idea, but it doesn't surprise me a lot. They were a philosophical bunch.

 

[Afforess]

I like the ideas, but for ME personally i will NEVER ever use any civic that has a
-, i cant stand anything that is taking away from what i am trying so hard to get more of, but of course thats just me.

Looks like I am slow to the draw.

I understand that. I try to avoid that whenever possible. Of course, if the civic - but adds or I might still switch. I can always build more libraries then to compensate.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

When looking at your suggestions for civics I ask myself the following questions.

• consensus governtment
• Spartan model - rule by high priestess and two kings - supposedly common earlier than this also
• Roman Religion during Ceasars - state religion seporate to peoples religion and all inclusive
• medieval city states like Itally
• semi-republic like 900's Iceland
• Egypt - reign's Tutmoses I, II, Hapchetsupt, Tutmoses III

Below are some notes.

Executive Department
. eglatarian
- high upkeep
- no rebellion in capital, high rebellion in all other cities
- -50% Science, +10% Culture, +50% war weryness, -20% mil prod
- not Absolute Rule

Legislative Department
(. Rule of Law?)
. Might is Right
. Just is Right
(I think it was one of the Tutmoses that put this dualism to rest by making the god of justice evil and the god of might the god of the pharoes )

Religious affairs
Separation of state and persional religious practices - seems normal early on when the job of the priests was to keep the gods out of the way. much like the Romans
Polytheisum - like the Romans again

Agriculture
. Slash and burn = None and -5% food or
. Permanent farms (available at start)
. Crop Rotation +5% food
. Enclosure (req feudalism)

Commerce - there needs to be one between none and merchantilism

Defense
warrior code - available with hunting or earlier. No upkeep or benifits.
Chivalric Ideal - chivalry....

Justice
Council of Elders - available at start

Waste
Who cares about pollution until Ecology - re "Waste to sea"

 

[Afforess]

When looking at your suggestions for civics I ask myself the following questions.

• consensus governtment
• Spartan model - rule by high priestess and two kings - supposedly common earlier than this also
• Roman Religion during Ceasars - state religion seporate to peoples religion and all inclusive
• medieval city states like Itally
• semi-republic like 900's Iceland
• Egypt - reign's Tutmoses I, II, Hapchetsupt, Tutmoses III

Executive Department
. eglatarian
- high upkeep
- no rebellion in capital, high rebellion in all other cities
- -50% Science, +10% Culture, +50% war weryness, -20% mil prod
- not Absolute Rule

Legislative Department
(. Rule of Law?)
. Might is Right
. Just is Right
(I think it was one of the Tutmoses that put this dualism to rest by making the god of justice evil and the god of might the god of the pharoes )

Religious affairs
Separation of state and persional religious practices - seems normal early on when the job of the priests was to keep the gods out of the way. much like the Romans
Polithesium - like the Romans again

You're right, I should add Theocracy to the executive department. (It has been added.)

However, the early consensus gov't you are looking for is similar to chiefdom, methinks. However, I think Absolute rule covers the legislative department fairly well. I am only trying to emulate history, not make a perfect recreation.

Waste
Who cares about pollution until Ecology - re "Waste to sea"

Early London had sewage that flowed down the streets, rats that spread plagues, and many other problems. I believe that presents a problem. Plus, look at None, I made it very negative, although, I just rebalanced it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You're right, I should add Theocracy to the executive department. (It has been added.)

However, the early consensus gov't you are looking for is similar to chiefdom, methinks. However, I think Absolute rule covers the legislative department fairly well. I am only trying to emulate history, not make a perfect recreation.

There is no chiefdom in the document that I printed out, the one you linked to. This means that I am commenting on a different document to the one that you are using to read my comments. This will cause confusion all round.

 

[Afforess]

There is no chiefdom in the document that I printed out, the one you linked to. This means that I am commenting on a different document to the one that you are using to read my comments. This will cause confusion all round.

No, we are talking about the same thing. I just haven't added Chiefdom yet...

 

[dexy]

Here's one more for the new 'departments' list!!!

I totally agree that current civics system is a bit illogical, I just never had time to think of the solution and implement it.

And don't worry about Ministries vs. Departments. Someone could argue whether it's civiliSation or civiliZation also... but that's not point of the game.

 

[Blackflag421]

Interesting stuff, I'd have to try it out to get a clear picture on how it works... but at a glance, agricultural guilds seems WORSE than slash n burn, which is available sooner.

* Slash and Burn (Requires: Bronze Working)
o Low Upkeep
o +5% Food
o +1 Unhealthy in all cities
o -10% City Maintenance
o -1 diplomacy with all other nations, "You destroy the environment!"



* Agricultural Guilds (Requires: Guilds)
o Medium Upkeep
o +5% Food Output
o +25% City Maintenance
o +1 unhappiness in largest cities

Higher upkeep, higher maintenance (even more -cash), and seems crappy.

Unsure about the commerce civics (using the term since they're replacing civics, and it's shorter). Conscription being the inital military civic kinda blows too, since your cities won't grow while you spam units in the BC era (applies to me cuz I start as minors usually). Education ones seem Ok. DHS seems like I'd usually pick "none" unless needing espionage, or maybe border patrols, last 2 cost lots of $$$. State owned land being starting civic for housing seems wrong, afaik land was communal to start. Housing seems like it needs another choice or two as well, need to think about it tho. Unsure about the DoJ choices. Rest seems good, but consider closed borders preventing non-state religion spread? Hard for foreign religions to spread when foreigners aren't allowed in with their heathen religions.

 

[Afforess]

Interesting stuff, I'd have to try it out to get a clear picture on how it works... but at a glance, agricultural guilds seems WORSE than slash n burn, which is available sooner.

* Slash and Burn (Requires: Bronze Working)
o Low Upkeep
o +5% Food
o +1 Unhealthy in all cities
o -10% City Maintenance
o -1 diplomacy with all other nations, "You destroy the environment!"



* Agricultural Guilds (Requires: Guilds)
o Medium Upkeep
o +5% Food Output
o +25% City Maintenance
o +1 unhappiness in largest cities

Higher upkeep, higher maintenance (even more -cash), and seems crappy.

Unsure about the commerce civics (using the term since they're replacing civics, and it's shorter). Conscription being the inital military civic kinda blows too, since your cities won't grow while you spam units in the BC era (applies to me cuz I start as minors usually). Education ones seem Ok. DHS seems like I'd usually pick "none" unless needing espionage, or maybe border patrols, last 2 cost lots of $$$. State owned land being starting civic for housing seems wrong, afaik land was communal to start. Housing seems like it needs another choice or two as well, need to think about it tho. Unsure about the DoJ choices. Rest seems good, but consider closed borders preventing non-state religion spread? Hard for foreign religions to spread when foreigners aren't allowed in with their heathen religions.

I balanced them a bit more, see what you think. I'm for keeping Conscription as a starting military civic, as it will slow down city growth, which is fairly realistic, as humanity was small for 1000's of years.

The upkeep is not as bad as you perceive. I will re-balance it, because of all of the civic choices.

I don't think Closed Borders should stop non-state religion spread, as it is only part of the reason for religion spread.

 

[Blackflag421]

Looks good now, better than slash n burn, but still a big step down from privatized. Is there a way to slow religion spread? Stopping religion spread might be overdoing it, but slowing would be realistic. Of course, open borders would increase non-state religion spread...

 

[Afforess]

Looks good now, better than slash n burn, but still a big step down from privatized.

That's the point.

Is there a way to slow religion spread? Stopping religion spread might be overdoing it, but slowing would be realistic. Of course, open borders would increase non-state religion spread...

I might be able to add such a modifier.

 

[Blackflag421]

Well from what I can see without actually USING the civics, and without the 3 missing categories they seem balanced, and better (read: more realistic) than the current ones. Looks like early techs will come noticeably slower - much more realistic than it is ATM. Nice to see despotism finally have a use, production = more troops Needing military training to use despotism made it come so late you were better of waiting for monarchy anyway.

I'll d/l these when you put them in beta.