Recon units too powerful?

[Wodan]

Well still there're far more balanced things like aristofarms and vampires or some other unbeatable tactics.

Did you forget an "un-" in front of "balanced"?

Regardless, make a thread about them, and I'd love to talk about it.

And I didn't ask March OR Combat IV,

Well, that's the choice. March has a prereq of Combat III or Medic 1. So, you have a unit with Combat III. Do you give it March or Combat IV?

but units without march are easily killed by stack of deaths while with march can move around, hit, then more further as much as you want.

That totally depends on your tactics. If you send units out in penny packets, of course they're going to get whomped by any SOD they run across.

And I don't disagree that March has value. But it depends on how the unit is used. For assaulting cities (which is what we're talking about), I'd much rather have CR or Combat IV, or even Drill, all of which are eligible to Recon units.

Seems to me that what you're talking about are skirmishers. While it would make sense that Recon units should be able to serve in capacity as skirmirshers (just as it would make sense that Mounted units should serve as skirmishers), and it makes sense that March would be most useful to skirmishers, it does not make sense that neither Recon or Mounted can get March.

So that's a separate note to Valk and everyone: please consider opening up Recon and Mounted to March.

 

[Valkrionn]

That's a very good point, and will likely happen.

As I think I've said, I'm going to rebalance the recon line (adding a new unit so I can make hunting cheaper, with weaker Hunters; Required for balance elsewhere, not just for the recon units) so I'll be looking at all of this.

 

[Wodan]

To quote Dubya, "Mission Accomplished".

Thanks Valk!

 

[Valkrionn]

Technically, you accomplished nothing.

I had planned to do that more than a month ago; Like I said, it's due to an unrelated balance concern. Want to make sure that early religions (FoL, OO, RoK) are equal in tech cost.

 

[Wodan]

Yeah, but I feel better, so my self-esteem has a boost. You can feel pleased that you've provided me validation at no cost to yourself.

 

[Cuteunit]

Did you forget an "un-" in front of "balanced"?

Regardless, make a thread about them, and I'd love to talk about it.


Well, that's the choice. March has a prereq of Combat III or Medic 1. So, you have a unit with Combat III. Do you give it March or Combat IV?


That totally depends on your tactics. If you send units out in penny packets, of course they're going to get whomped by any SOD they run across.

And I don't disagree that March has value. But it depends on how the unit is used. For assaulting cities (which is what we're talking about), I'd much rather have CR or Combat IV, or even Drill, all of which are eligible to Recon units.

Seems to me that what you're talking about are skirmishers. While it would make sense that Recon units should be able to serve in capacity as skirmirshers (just as it would make sense that Mounted units should serve as skirmishers), and it makes sense that March would be most useful to skirmishers, it does not make sense that neither Recon or Mounted can get March.

So that's a separate note to Valk and everyone: please consider opening up Recon and Mounted to March.

a unit with March still heals at the end of a turn where it attacked, no-march units dont. That's why March is so good, it halves the time required to heal a unit and is absolutely required to attack in quick succession with the same units, such as in city siege.

 

[Wodan]

a unit with March still heals at the end of a turn where it attacked, no-march units dont. That's why March is so good, it halves the time required to heal a unit and is absolutely required to attack in quick succession with the same units, such as in city siege.

A unit in enemy territory is going to heal slow as molasses, whether or not it get a 1 turn benefit of healing after attacking. It does NOT "halve" the time required. It gives a -1 on the total # of turns. So, if it takes 8 turns to heal, March changes it to 7 (not 4).

 

[Jheral]

It also gives a bonus to the unit's heal rate in enemy territory, though, and that could easily halve the time.

 

[Milaga]

March really becomes invaluable when you have a Medic I and Medic II promoted units in the stack, because then you are moving and healing 45% of your health every turn. Once you have priests, you should almost always want march over Combat IV.

 

[Deon]

That was my point. And I usually play on high difficulty levels so I usually have to deal with stacks of 60+ freaks so ability to quickly heal is awesome. If you play with small stacks the recon line is good, but in huge numbers they cannot stand against melee line (or archers in RiFE, with their awesome ranged bombardment) so I don't see them as overpowered.

I think that recon line SHOULD be stronger in small numbers, that's their main point. But whatever, Valk always does as he pleases . And different opinions are always good.

 

[Evalis]

I honestly wouldn't mind savagely nerfing recon units(other than assassins and shadows) against everything except animals and barbarians. The AI spams hunters (for example) to the point of absurdity. I've always felt that it would make more sense for military units to be used for military things.

I'm not so sure I agree that assassins 'shouldn't' be nerfed. The trouble with the -50% to attack cities promotion is that it's calculated additively rather than a multiplier. So.. if I already have %120 bonus to attack that -50% won't be enough to stop the assassin from killing your weaker support units. Did guardsman get changed by the way? I mean does only that one unit stand up to defend, or does it still affect the whole stack? Shadows are okay because you can only ever have 4 of them at a time. Why don't fort commanders start with guardsman btw?

Erm.. on that note.. Phalanx should probably come equipped with the guardsman promotion. Only 4 of them too, and the tech is higher than shadows I think as well.

 

[aswfreak12]

I'm not so sure I agree that assassins 'shouldn't' be nerfed. The trouble with the -50% to attack cities promotion is that it's calculated additively rather than a multiplier. So.. if I already have %120 bonus to attack that -50% won't be enough to stop the assassin from killing your weaker support units. Did guardsman get changed by the way? I mean does only that one unit stand up to defend, or does it still affect the whole stack? Shadows are okay because you can only ever have 4 of them at a time. Why don't fort commanders start with guardsman btw?

Erm.. on that note.. Phalanx should probably come equipped with the guardsman promotion. Only 4 of them too, and the tech is higher than shadows I think as well.

As far as I've come across guardsman works on the whole stack only in a city or fortress.

There is already a unit that comes with guardsman hot out of the oven and that is the Royal Guard.

I really don't understand the hate on assassins, they are arguably the most easily countered unit in the game if they are from normal civs and not ones that specialize like cualli or svart. Guardsman, counter assassins, stoneskin, any kind of collateral spell or maelstrom, bombarding archery units, and make sure you are the one attacking.

Recon units are valued for their utility and not their combat prowess, you only need one hunter or ranger to go out and start taking animals. As far as that utility, it's open for every civ to get and isn't limited. Which makes it balanced and equal. The same can be said for deciding to research a religion or go for drama and sanitation. Simply because YOU cannot see the point of going for any other tech before hunting doesn't mean others don't since the game changes based on the situation, especially if you're playing multiplayer.

As far as their combat prowess, they kind of blow. They only serious reason to use them is if you don't have copper or iron early or mid game as far as SOD combat is concerned. Backed up with Poisoned Blade, and the Shadow spell tree they can be alright, but poison again is so easily countered.

 

[Valkrionn]

As far as I've come across guardsman works on the whole stack only in a city or fortress.

Guardsman was changed in FF, and RifE inherited that change.

Basically, if a marksman unit attacks a stack with a Guardsman unit in FfH, marksman is ignored and it attacks the highest strength unit in the stack.

In RifE, the unit attacks just that unit (or one of the units) with Guardsman.

So no, not the whole stack; Just the Guardsman unit is affected.

 

[aswfreak12]

Guardsman was changed in FF, and RifE inherited that change.

Basically, if a marksman unit attacks a stack with a Guardsman unit in FfH, marksman is ignored and it attacks the highest strength unit in the stack.

In RifE, the unit attacks just that unit (or one of the units) with Guardsman.

So no, not the whole stack; Just the Guardsman unit is affected.

I like this

 

[Evalis]

Guardsman was changed in FF, and RifE inherited that change.

Basically, if a marksman unit attacks a stack with a Guardsman unit in FfH, marksman is ignored and it attacks the highest strength unit in the stack.

In RifE, the unit attacks just that unit (or one of the units) with Guardsman.

So no, not the whole stack; Just the Guardsman unit is affected.

That's actually rather awkward then.. and nearly impossible to defend against. Gaurdsman requires combat 4 in order to acquire.. if it only affects that one unit, this should be reduced to combat 1. The strength in assassins isn't so much that they can target the weakest unit in the stack, it's that even if they lose, the next assassin will win. A surefire way to kill a highly promoted unit or hero is to keep wailing on that stack with assassins. Other units are required to beat down the other defending stack units first.

 

[Valkrionn]

That's actually rather awkward then.. and nearly impossible to defend against. Gaurdsman requires combat 4 in order to acquire.. if it only affects that one unit, this should be reduced to combat 1. The strength in assassins isn't so much that they can target the weakest unit in the stack, it's that even if they lose, the next assassin will win. A surefire way to kill a highly promoted unit or hero is to keep wailing on that stack with assassins. Other units are required to beat down the other defending stack units first.

It will be. Maybe I shouldn't mention this yet, but what the hell: Version 1.5 (1.3 is next, then 1.4 will contain GreyFox's work and a new religion) will completely redesign units. And promotions as a result.

 

[Milaga]

Maybe I shouldn't mention this yet, but what the hell: Version 1.5 (1.3 is next, then 1.4 will contain GreyFox's work and a new religion) will completely redesign units. And promotions as a result.

Probably just wild speculation but I heard that eventually RiFE is going to rework CIV4. Again, I'm sure it's just a rumor.

Anyway, I already did that in my own mod. I figure that since Magister Cultuum actually unleashed his reality, it probably was time for me to stop taking notes and start putting code to mine. I've not rigorously tested many of these changes since I'm still shopping for a codebase, and there is a much larger change that I need to focus on.

Recon, mounted, melee, archer ... completely redone. I haven't gotten to disciple or arcane yet, but they can be adjusted separately while still maintaining balance. Bronze, Iron, Mithril (and Steel) weapons, also redone. It always irked me that Iron weapons were considered superior to Bronze when that is completely not the case at all. I suppose you could assume that "Iron" means "Steel" but my mod clarifies that and places appropriate economic costs on the weapon types.

 

[Valkrionn]

Probably just wild speculation but I heard that eventually RiFE is going to rework CIV4. Again, I'm sure it's just a rumor.

Anyway, I already did that in my own mod. I figure that since Magister Cultuum actually unleashed his reality, it probably was time for me to stop taking notes and start putting code to mine. I've not rigorously tested many of these changes since I'm still shopping for a codebase, and there is a much larger change that I need to focus on.

Recon, mounted, melee, archer ... completely redone. I haven't gotten to disciple or arcane yet, but they can be adjusted separately while still maintaining balance. Bronze, Iron, Mithril (and Steel) weapons, also redone. It always irked me that Iron weapons were considered superior to Bronze when that is completely not the case at all. I suppose you could assume that "Iron" means "Steel" but my mod clarifies that and places appropriate economic costs on the weapon types.

Hehe. Trust me when I say, our changes will go farther.