Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,272
Caveat: I no longer recommend following this guide post-fall patch unless you want to do things the hard way. Following the left path of Honor before the right gets you promoted units much faster, but in order to take advantage of that and maintain momentum, you need to start taking cities by t60 or so, which is pretty rough now with the warmonger penalty changes. I now recommend going right-side first and delaying conquest until at least medieval units, but I'm not ready to post a strategy guide as of yet. I'm still experimenting with mid-game strategies.
I'll leave this guide here since it's still fun to play with, and Firaxis may rebalance Honor/early war at some point....
This is not for the faint of heart. This strategy has very little room for error. I consistently capture 3-4 capitals by turn 140, but I'm still working out the kinks of how to progress from there. Hence why I call it an *opening*. But, if you want to have some fun owning people early, this guide works for any civ. And maybe you can help me fill in the blanks from there. Let's be honest though, Honor is gimped. You're in for a rough ride. But some of us like a challenge. If you consistently win on Deity with Liberty or Tradition, try this. :-D
Rather than list tech order, policy order, etc. I'm going to describe general things to keep in mind first, and then at the end, different scenarios which require different approaches and tech orders. Honor requires adapting to the map more than Liberty or Tradition.
However, there are some things that apply to all situations.
#1) The Goal: Heavily promoted units as soon as possible, so you can start taking capitals by turn 50-60.
The one thing Honor has going for it (No, not the opener... it's not nearly as cool as people seem to think) is Military Tradition. +50% XP is huge. Here are the numbers for reference.
Without Honor:
Attacking with a melee unit: 5 XP
Defending against a melee attack: 4 XP
Attacking with a ranged unit: 2 XP
Being attacked by a ranged unit: 2 XP
City Attack: 3 XP*
With Honor:
Attacking with a melee unit: 7 XP
Defending against a melee attack: 6 XP (Very useful early on)
Attacking with a ranged unit: 3 XP
Being attacked by a ranged unit: 3 XP
City Attack: 4 XP
*Note the added value of attacking a city. This is key.
Here's the promotion chart for ranged, in the order I recommend taking them:
Promotion--------------Total XP
Accuracy/Barrage 1-----10
Accuracy/Barrage 2-----30 (No more barbs after this...)
Accuracy/Barrage 3-----60 (Time to take our first capital)
Logistics---------------100 (DoW our second & third targets)
Range------------------150 (DoW our fourth and fifth targets)
March------------------210 (This helps chew through now advanced units)
Cover 1----------------280 (Need this for when you upgrade to Gatling Guns)
Cover 2----------------360 (Keeps Gatling Guns relevant a bit longer)
100 XP takes 34 attacks with Honor, and 50 attacks without Honor. 150 XP takes 50 and 75.... In normal situations, you can only attack every 2 turns*. (see my CS link below for why)
*100 XP takes only 25 city attacks with Honor, assuming you don't get hit along the way. This is why it's so important to start laying siege with archers as soon as you get Military Tradition. (Earlier than that you're probably beating on barb camps or stealing workers mostly)
As a result, choosing Honor means having Range + Logistics waaay earlier. This can be the difference between a successful military campaign and failure. I'll go into the actual numbers later. There are ways to optimize it even further.
#2) The Army. Ideally, we have 2 armies which each consist of:
2 archers
1 warrior/spearman with the goal of eventually having Medic 3 (+15hp/turn)
1 scout with Scouting 3 (+1 movement, +2 sight) to sight for our archers with Range
1 horseman for pillage and city capture (optional, only if you have horses, but highly recommended)
1 sacrificial lamb (the cheapest unit you can make)
2 workers
Now, you can do the math... that's a lot of gpt for maintenance. It'll take a while to get that going, so the first priority is 4 archers, and you *cannot let them die*. It's better to abandon the attack and start again when they're healed up rather than let even one of them die. The temptation to let them die because you'll cap next turn is one you must fight. Regroup if necessary.
The next priority is at least one medic: your starting warrior. Do NOT let him die. The next priority is a scout with +1 vision. Then worry about the rest. The lucky thing is, the warrior and scout are easy. Plan on making a second scout to do *actual* scouting by the way. ;-)
#3) Read my post entitled "The Fine Art of Abusing City-States" here. The worker-stealing part is key to the overall strategy. The XP aspect, less so, if your target AI's geography is so ideal that you can focus all your energy on him. Usually though you need that CS for some portion of your XP farming. (Like, for example, when you don't *have* a close neighbor until someone places a second city)
Honor-specific addendums to that guide:
* If possible do NOT DoW a cultural or mercantile CS. Honor suffers greatly from lack of both, but favor culture over happiness. You need to get through the Honor tree ASAP to save your economy. It's still secondary to DoWing the most convenient CS though! Preferably one near your target. :-D
* Dedicate a scout to farming your target CS for XP and workers. Your goal is to get 2-3 workers and Scouting 3, which gives +2 sight and +1 movement.
#4) DoW a neighbor AI by capturing a worker as soon as possible. If you can DoW on turn 5-10 by capturing a worker, do it. Pick an AI that has open ground in front of it!! If you have your choice of two AIs, DoW the aggressive one. Ideally, you want two close AIs, one aggressive, one not aggressive. (For friendship and trade routes)
*Also, the other advantage of not dowing the neighbor who's going to go tall: He's going to build Wonders for you. His capital is way more valuable to you on t80-90 than it is on t50. DoWing him too early will just slow down his wonder generation.
However, ideal is rare. You may have to move a settler close to one of the AIs to get trade routes going, but it's worth it! If you only get one AI, you must attack him. For healing, and supply lines, at first, it's very important to have your army close to home during the initial attack period.
Avoid the temptation to keep scouting with the warrior or first scout after turn 25 or so. Build a second scout. Once you find a good target, hang around until you have the chance to get away clean with a worker. (Your unit and the worker must be able to move two tiles away after the attack, and you must survive the retaliation attack before that, so be smart)
You're going to want to eventually keep scouting, but with unit maintenance costs and the need to upgrade archers to composite bows, you might not be able to afford it. You really need at least one scout at home to help with the XP farming. Hopefully one of your scouts promoted to an archer, so keep that one at home for sure, and build a scout instead of a 4th archer.
NOTE: You should stay in perma-war with the AI and CS you DoW'd until your conquest begins. Do not accept peace terms! Re-DoWing is a reputation hit, and I guarantee you you'll wish you hadn't.
#5) Spawn your archers ASAP. You get the most benefit from CS and AI city XP early, before the city gets too strong. Your scout can survive 2 city hits at the start of the game. That won't last long. Getting Scouting 1 and Medic 1 early makes the whole thing go more smoothly.
#6) Take as many melee hits as you can from barbarians, while you still can. 6 XP from a melee hit is equivalent to 2 ranged attacks. You can level a unit to the barbarian limit in 5 hits. Letting a barbarian at low health attack you is more efficient than killing him, because they do reduced damage. Remember, no barbarian XP after 30, so try to send less-promoted units to finish off barb camps.
#7) In the early game, you should devote one archer to barb camp duty. You need the culture, and it's good XP. Don't capture the camp unless an AI scout is one turn from capturing it. If you don't need to heal, and you feel it's safe, come back later. The camp will respawn. Barb Camps are better early training grounds than the CS because of the low-damage melee attacks. You actually *want* the camp to spawn a second unit, because the first one won't come out.
#8) Ideally, you should have an AI city almost dead *before* you get Construction, so that you can cap it and immediately upgrade on the spot. This means starting the attack as soon as you have archers, and this may not always be feasible. But if you miss this, or didn't forward settle, you now have 5+ turns of movement after you upgrade. Also, *don't forget to save money for archer upgrades!!* If you don't have Friends and resources to trade, don't rush buy anything.
#9) If there's forest/jungle in your target's 2nd/3rd tier, prioritize removing it. Better yet, pick a different target. He'll remove his own jungle for you to make farms, so by t70-80 when you come back the approach should be easier.
Problematic Situation #1) Full Isolation
There isn't anyone within miles of you. There's a mountain range between you and the nearest neighbor. You haven't found a civ by turn 30.
General Strategy: EDIT: Post-patch it is no longer recommended to ever cap a CS. Farm your local CS for archer XP while you focus on tech. Build a settler and forward settle. Maybe even two settlers. Honestly though, if this happens, you're better off not opening Honor.
Problematic Situation #2) Partial Isolation
There's only one AI nearby and he's far away.
Build a settler as soon as you have archers, and forward-settle in a spot that's convenient to attack from.
Problematic Situation #3) There are two AIs nearby but one is far away.
If the close AI is the aggressive one, be prepared to defend yourself, especially post-patch. Luckily, defending plays into our long-term plans. We're weakening his army while healing at 30+/turn with Medics. I park my cities on hilltop luxuries when possible, so that pillaging can't reduce my happiness, but it's sometimes unavoidable. There are two approaches to trade routes here.
a) Build a 2nd city where it's most convenient, and cap a city asap and trade it to a friendly AI. Trade with that city from both of your cities.
b) Build a 2nd city near the friendly AI, and trade from that city with both caravans. (Sailing and Animal Husbandry = 2)
Ideally of course, you have two close neighbors. One to attack, and one to trade with. In this case you may not even need a second city. But without a second city, you won't be able to support your unit count for very long without capturing a city or focusing on growing your capital...
From there it's basically capture as many capitals as you can, and cities with unique resources/wonders/etc, then turtle until Artillery. But there are variations.
Variation #1) Blended Honor/Liberty. Take Honor to Military Tradition, then take Liberty to Citizenship. Build the Pyramids for 1-turn pillage healing. This is worth it because it speeds up city capture, and generates a LOT of gold. However, keep in mind that you're not going to complete *either* tree, and will have to go straight into Commerce or Rationalism from there. This is somewhat ok, because Honor generally sucks. The advantage to single-turn pillage healing is MAD cash. When you get Landsknecht who can pillage without using an action, you can actually pillage 2x in one turn and still move and attack. (With a worker repair in the middle)
Variation #2) Blended Honor/Tradition: Open Tradition, Open Honor to Military Tradition, take Oligarchy, then Finish Honor. The culture boost from Tradition makes up for opening it first, and Oligarchy makes it so that those stupid units you have to leave in cities for happiness & culture are *free*, which is cool. Eventually, with 10 scouts in 10 cities, this is 20 culture/turn and 10 happiness for free. It's not as good as the other branches, but it helps make Honor *possible* to win with on Deity.
Tech Plan:
Generally you want Archery ASAP, as your 2nd or 3rd tech, then luxuries, then Construction, then Philosophy, then it's your choice whether to go for Machinery, Physics or Civil Service. Mostly, it depends on whether you intend to continue the attack with X-Bows, or use your heavily promoted CBs to support your Trebuchet, Knights and Pikemen as they continue the attack. Civil Service is safest, because it doesn't slow down Education and speeds your growth. Machinery is risky but doable if you get a 3rd TR from Engineering and you have incoming TRs. You can extend the rush with X-Bows, and even Gatling Guns if you move fast enough.
Physics is the most dangerous, because by now you're falling behind in military tech. Your X-Bows still work because by now they have range and logistics, which defeat the superior forces you'll likely be facing.
You really want to ally a Cultural CS if possible. The sooner you complete Honor, the sooner you get gold for each kill. This will make *everything* go much smoother.
Final notes: Certain Civs require different approaches. England, China, Mongolia, Arabia, Shaka, anyone with gold, tech, happiness or culture bonuses... You basically have to adjust your strategy to the civ. For example, with England, pick March, not Range, and go for Machinery where they get Range for free. With China... pick Range, then March, and skip Logistics. (duh) England also excels at catching up in tech with the two spies.
With Mongolia and Arabia in particular, build only 2 archers and then build War Chariots. You'll be going for Chivalry instead of Machinery. So you better find Horses!
With Shaka, go for Civil Service and Impi, but still level up those Archers. He does it 25% faster, meaning you'll have Range/Logistics CBS by like turn 75-80...
Good luck, and post feedback/criticism, please, or mid-game strategies. For me, so far, it's been Machinery->Education->Industrialization or Civil Service->Education->Industrialization, rush-buy 3 factories if possible, borrow the coal if necessary, open Autocracy for 2 free techs, and steal my way to victory. This doesn't feel optimal, but with the prolonged initial conquest, you're guaranteed to be behind on tech... I'd really like suggestions on how to better handle the inevitable tech deficit here.
I'll leave this guide here since it's still fun to play with, and Firaxis may rebalance Honor/early war at some point....
This is not for the faint of heart. This strategy has very little room for error. I consistently capture 3-4 capitals by turn 140, but I'm still working out the kinks of how to progress from there. Hence why I call it an *opening*. But, if you want to have some fun owning people early, this guide works for any civ. And maybe you can help me fill in the blanks from there. Let's be honest though, Honor is gimped. You're in for a rough ride. But some of us like a challenge. If you consistently win on Deity with Liberty or Tradition, try this. :-D
Rather than list tech order, policy order, etc. I'm going to describe general things to keep in mind first, and then at the end, different scenarios which require different approaches and tech orders. Honor requires adapting to the map more than Liberty or Tradition.
However, there are some things that apply to all situations.
#1) The Goal: Heavily promoted units as soon as possible, so you can start taking capitals by turn 50-60.
The one thing Honor has going for it (No, not the opener... it's not nearly as cool as people seem to think) is Military Tradition. +50% XP is huge. Here are the numbers for reference.
Without Honor:
Attacking with a melee unit: 5 XP
Defending against a melee attack: 4 XP
Attacking with a ranged unit: 2 XP
Being attacked by a ranged unit: 2 XP
City Attack: 3 XP*
With Honor:
Attacking with a melee unit: 7 XP
Defending against a melee attack: 6 XP (Very useful early on)
Attacking with a ranged unit: 3 XP
Being attacked by a ranged unit: 3 XP
City Attack: 4 XP
*Note the added value of attacking a city. This is key.
Here's the promotion chart for ranged, in the order I recommend taking them:
Promotion--------------Total XP
Accuracy/Barrage 1-----10
Accuracy/Barrage 2-----30 (No more barbs after this...)
Accuracy/Barrage 3-----60 (Time to take our first capital)
Logistics---------------100 (DoW our second & third targets)
Range------------------150 (DoW our fourth and fifth targets)
March------------------210 (This helps chew through now advanced units)
Cover 1----------------280 (Need this for when you upgrade to Gatling Guns)
Cover 2----------------360 (Keeps Gatling Guns relevant a bit longer)
100 XP takes 34 attacks with Honor, and 50 attacks without Honor. 150 XP takes 50 and 75.... In normal situations, you can only attack every 2 turns*. (see my CS link below for why)
*100 XP takes only 25 city attacks with Honor, assuming you don't get hit along the way. This is why it's so important to start laying siege with archers as soon as you get Military Tradition. (Earlier than that you're probably beating on barb camps or stealing workers mostly)
As a result, choosing Honor means having Range + Logistics waaay earlier. This can be the difference between a successful military campaign and failure. I'll go into the actual numbers later. There are ways to optimize it even further.
#2) The Army. Ideally, we have 2 armies which each consist of:
2 archers
1 warrior/spearman with the goal of eventually having Medic 3 (+15hp/turn)
1 scout with Scouting 3 (+1 movement, +2 sight) to sight for our archers with Range
1 horseman for pillage and city capture (optional, only if you have horses, but highly recommended)
1 sacrificial lamb (the cheapest unit you can make)
2 workers
Now, you can do the math... that's a lot of gpt for maintenance. It'll take a while to get that going, so the first priority is 4 archers, and you *cannot let them die*. It's better to abandon the attack and start again when they're healed up rather than let even one of them die. The temptation to let them die because you'll cap next turn is one you must fight. Regroup if necessary.
The next priority is at least one medic: your starting warrior. Do NOT let him die. The next priority is a scout with +1 vision. Then worry about the rest. The lucky thing is, the warrior and scout are easy. Plan on making a second scout to do *actual* scouting by the way. ;-)
#3) Read my post entitled "The Fine Art of Abusing City-States" here. The worker-stealing part is key to the overall strategy. The XP aspect, less so, if your target AI's geography is so ideal that you can focus all your energy on him. Usually though you need that CS for some portion of your XP farming. (Like, for example, when you don't *have* a close neighbor until someone places a second city)
Honor-specific addendums to that guide:
* If possible do NOT DoW a cultural or mercantile CS. Honor suffers greatly from lack of both, but favor culture over happiness. You need to get through the Honor tree ASAP to save your economy. It's still secondary to DoWing the most convenient CS though! Preferably one near your target. :-D
* Dedicate a scout to farming your target CS for XP and workers. Your goal is to get 2-3 workers and Scouting 3, which gives +2 sight and +1 movement.
#4) DoW a neighbor AI by capturing a worker as soon as possible. If you can DoW on turn 5-10 by capturing a worker, do it. Pick an AI that has open ground in front of it!! If you have your choice of two AIs, DoW the aggressive one. Ideally, you want two close AIs, one aggressive, one not aggressive. (For friendship and trade routes)
*Also, the other advantage of not dowing the neighbor who's going to go tall: He's going to build Wonders for you. His capital is way more valuable to you on t80-90 than it is on t50. DoWing him too early will just slow down his wonder generation.
However, ideal is rare. You may have to move a settler close to one of the AIs to get trade routes going, but it's worth it! If you only get one AI, you must attack him. For healing, and supply lines, at first, it's very important to have your army close to home during the initial attack period.
Avoid the temptation to keep scouting with the warrior or first scout after turn 25 or so. Build a second scout. Once you find a good target, hang around until you have the chance to get away clean with a worker. (Your unit and the worker must be able to move two tiles away after the attack, and you must survive the retaliation attack before that, so be smart)
You're going to want to eventually keep scouting, but with unit maintenance costs and the need to upgrade archers to composite bows, you might not be able to afford it. You really need at least one scout at home to help with the XP farming. Hopefully one of your scouts promoted to an archer, so keep that one at home for sure, and build a scout instead of a 4th archer.
NOTE: You should stay in perma-war with the AI and CS you DoW'd until your conquest begins. Do not accept peace terms! Re-DoWing is a reputation hit, and I guarantee you you'll wish you hadn't.
#5) Spawn your archers ASAP. You get the most benefit from CS and AI city XP early, before the city gets too strong. Your scout can survive 2 city hits at the start of the game. That won't last long. Getting Scouting 1 and Medic 1 early makes the whole thing go more smoothly.
#6) Take as many melee hits as you can from barbarians, while you still can. 6 XP from a melee hit is equivalent to 2 ranged attacks. You can level a unit to the barbarian limit in 5 hits. Letting a barbarian at low health attack you is more efficient than killing him, because they do reduced damage. Remember, no barbarian XP after 30, so try to send less-promoted units to finish off barb camps.
#7) In the early game, you should devote one archer to barb camp duty. You need the culture, and it's good XP. Don't capture the camp unless an AI scout is one turn from capturing it. If you don't need to heal, and you feel it's safe, come back later. The camp will respawn. Barb Camps are better early training grounds than the CS because of the low-damage melee attacks. You actually *want* the camp to spawn a second unit, because the first one won't come out.
#8) Ideally, you should have an AI city almost dead *before* you get Construction, so that you can cap it and immediately upgrade on the spot. This means starting the attack as soon as you have archers, and this may not always be feasible. But if you miss this, or didn't forward settle, you now have 5+ turns of movement after you upgrade. Also, *don't forget to save money for archer upgrades!!* If you don't have Friends and resources to trade, don't rush buy anything.
#9) If there's forest/jungle in your target's 2nd/3rd tier, prioritize removing it. Better yet, pick a different target. He'll remove his own jungle for you to make farms, so by t70-80 when you come back the approach should be easier.
Problematic Situation #1) Full Isolation
There isn't anyone within miles of you. There's a mountain range between you and the nearest neighbor. You haven't found a civ by turn 30.
General Strategy: EDIT: Post-patch it is no longer recommended to ever cap a CS. Farm your local CS for archer XP while you focus on tech. Build a settler and forward settle. Maybe even two settlers. Honestly though, if this happens, you're better off not opening Honor.
Problematic Situation #2) Partial Isolation
There's only one AI nearby and he's far away.
Build a settler as soon as you have archers, and forward-settle in a spot that's convenient to attack from.
Problematic Situation #3) There are two AIs nearby but one is far away.
If the close AI is the aggressive one, be prepared to defend yourself, especially post-patch. Luckily, defending plays into our long-term plans. We're weakening his army while healing at 30+/turn with Medics. I park my cities on hilltop luxuries when possible, so that pillaging can't reduce my happiness, but it's sometimes unavoidable. There are two approaches to trade routes here.
a) Build a 2nd city where it's most convenient, and cap a city asap and trade it to a friendly AI. Trade with that city from both of your cities.
b) Build a 2nd city near the friendly AI, and trade from that city with both caravans. (Sailing and Animal Husbandry = 2)
Ideally of course, you have two close neighbors. One to attack, and one to trade with. In this case you may not even need a second city. But without a second city, you won't be able to support your unit count for very long without capturing a city or focusing on growing your capital...
From there it's basically capture as many capitals as you can, and cities with unique resources/wonders/etc, then turtle until Artillery. But there are variations.
Variation #1) Blended Honor/Liberty. Take Honor to Military Tradition, then take Liberty to Citizenship. Build the Pyramids for 1-turn pillage healing. This is worth it because it speeds up city capture, and generates a LOT of gold. However, keep in mind that you're not going to complete *either* tree, and will have to go straight into Commerce or Rationalism from there. This is somewhat ok, because Honor generally sucks. The advantage to single-turn pillage healing is MAD cash. When you get Landsknecht who can pillage without using an action, you can actually pillage 2x in one turn and still move and attack. (With a worker repair in the middle)
Variation #2) Blended Honor/Tradition: Open Tradition, Open Honor to Military Tradition, take Oligarchy, then Finish Honor. The culture boost from Tradition makes up for opening it first, and Oligarchy makes it so that those stupid units you have to leave in cities for happiness & culture are *free*, which is cool. Eventually, with 10 scouts in 10 cities, this is 20 culture/turn and 10 happiness for free. It's not as good as the other branches, but it helps make Honor *possible* to win with on Deity.
Tech Plan:
Generally you want Archery ASAP, as your 2nd or 3rd tech, then luxuries, then Construction, then Philosophy, then it's your choice whether to go for Machinery, Physics or Civil Service. Mostly, it depends on whether you intend to continue the attack with X-Bows, or use your heavily promoted CBs to support your Trebuchet, Knights and Pikemen as they continue the attack. Civil Service is safest, because it doesn't slow down Education and speeds your growth. Machinery is risky but doable if you get a 3rd TR from Engineering and you have incoming TRs. You can extend the rush with X-Bows, and even Gatling Guns if you move fast enough.
Physics is the most dangerous, because by now you're falling behind in military tech. Your X-Bows still work because by now they have range and logistics, which defeat the superior forces you'll likely be facing.
You really want to ally a Cultural CS if possible. The sooner you complete Honor, the sooner you get gold for each kill. This will make *everything* go much smoother.
Final notes: Certain Civs require different approaches. England, China, Mongolia, Arabia, Shaka, anyone with gold, tech, happiness or culture bonuses... You basically have to adjust your strategy to the civ. For example, with England, pick March, not Range, and go for Machinery where they get Range for free. With China... pick Range, then March, and skip Logistics. (duh) England also excels at catching up in tech with the two spies.
With Mongolia and Arabia in particular, build only 2 archers and then build War Chariots. You'll be going for Chivalry instead of Machinery. So you better find Horses!
With Shaka, go for Civil Service and Impi, but still level up those Archers. He does it 25% faster, meaning you'll have Range/Logistics CBS by like turn 75-80...
Good luck, and post feedback/criticism, please, or mid-game strategies. For me, so far, it's been Machinery->Education->Industrialization or Civil Service->Education->Industrialization, rush-buy 3 factories if possible, borrow the coal if necessary, open Autocracy for 2 free techs, and steal my way to victory. This doesn't feel optimal, but with the prolonged initial conquest, you're guaranteed to be behind on tech... I'd really like suggestions on how to better handle the inevitable tech deficit here.
