Relic from a goody hut

[IronfighterXXX]

Its a blow in the face for anyone interested in gotm or hof games if it releases like this.

So, it is second serious known by me possible source of troubles for competitive games (together with global pool of Great People).

I started to worry now...

 

[Aheadatime]

It's wildly overpowered. I'm quite certain this goody won't be available to anyone playing on Normal+ difficulties, just like the settler/worker goodies in Civ5.

 

[Jimdigriz]

I love the goody huts. Every Civ V game I started off with a scout as soon as possible and get that and the warrior popping huts. I think perhaps they should lower the amount of goody huts rather than the bonuses within them?

Its a very difficult balance. I wouldn't want to lose the goody huts but making them too good may be a problem. Should be tied to difficulty level as it always has been so great huts on low levels and the odd good one at medium and rare on high etc.

 

[beorn]

I'm not thrilled about this. The +4 faith per turn from the relic (which was totally random luck) far outpaces the +2 faith per turn they could get from building an early Shrine. I think it really minimizes the strategic element in the game if the bonuses you happen to get randomly are more important than the things you choose to build in your city.

I have the opposite reaction. I like to see a smattering of events that are significant game changers. It really adds to the replay value. Any time I see a stroke of fate early on, which throws out the usual strategy/usual situation, the odds of a really memorable game goes way up. (And this of course includes when some competing civ gets some unexpected stroke of luck and is able to compete in an unexpected way.)

Of course, I might feel differently if I played more multi-player. There, I'd want a more chess-like experience where luck is minimized.

And, needless to say, I want a light smattering, not an onslaught.

 

[cazaderonus]

We don't know the relic from goody hut is that good:
- It takes slot. We didn't see much religion play, but it's possible slot limit will be an issue.
- It doesn't provide GP points, just faith.

Compared to other goody hut bonuses, like eurekas or flat amount of faith/gold, etc. it's not that fantastic.

how is it NOT fantastic compared to mere eurekas, inspirations, 1pop, etc. ? It stays with you and represents 400 faith over the 100 first turns. Which is along with a few GPP a free rushbuy of a GP using faith without having to invest even 1 hammer in faith production.

The Devs simply can't win. If they lower the bonus they will have it the other way around: People stating it's ridiculous and that there's almost no incentive to go on the goody hut hunt (meh - lame! ). As always when a new civ comes out there's a discussion concerning "random events" or bonusses based on luck, eg getting that Goody Hut.
To me it's fine - Sure it's a big edge in the early game but why not?
Why not argue against natural wonders, too? If you're lucky they're nearby and you can build your holy district right next to it with a bigger bonus? Other players won't have that chance, unfair...

Taking that approach over the edge would mean arguing that every civ needs the exact same starting location to get comparability - same surroundings, same ressources, no isolated starts and so forth...

I prefer the greater diversity when it comes to civspecific bonusses, UU and abilities, too. And you have an edge on faith if you play as Spain with Phillip II. Nothing's wrong with it, I welcome the higher impact of uniqueness (so it seems) CiVI will offer.

Luck is a part of the game and it's fun to catch up when lying behind! And it's also fun to be lucky as long as it's not a gamebreaker - If you can win solely by luck (which I highly doubt!) then it would be another thing...

Except you still have to go on goody hut chase. just for the simple reason of exploring to search for expo locations, CSes, other civs etc... Goodie huts arent an end in themselves, they're just opportunities along the way. And for that reason, their bonuses needs to remain scaled to the very early game. Most of CiV were balanced aside from the weird bonus\civs combo such as warrior->battering ram, or pathfinder->CBs.

And natural wonders are just really not comparable. First, because there are always more than one, always. Two, because they're never in the original area where you spawn if you SiP. So it leaves those open for competition among the different players in order to get it. Three, now that there are >1 tile natural wonders, there's a trade off between having those in your borders and losing tiles for your city or leaving them at the borders open for another civ to use its adjacency bonus as well. So yeah, really not the same thing.

As for luck being in the game, yeah. But is it a good reason to justify any OP random thing that could happen? Maybe then we should ask the devs to add random events scaling from "hey, your civilization just suffered a plague and your population goes back to 1 in every cities" to "you won the worldwide lottery, here's your 1 000 000 gold reward" ? If you like that sorts of extreme random things, that's what mods are for, but for a strategy game like Civ, having it in the base game is a non-sense.

Arguing that the possibility of finding "permanent" bonus of even +2 before T5 (and i'm being nice) vs everyone else getting a standard basic reward isnt idiotic is beyond me.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

how is it NOT fantastic compared to mere eurekas, inspirations, 1pop, etc. ? It stays with you and represents 400 faith over the 100 first turns. Which is along with a few GPP a free rushbuy of a GP using faith without having to invest even 1 hammer in faith production.



Except you still have to go on goody hut chase. just for the simple reason of exploring to search for expo locations, CSes, other civs etc... Goodie huts arent an end in themselves, they're just opportunities along the way. And for that reason, their bonuses needs to remain scaled to the very early game. Most of CiV were balanced aside from the weird bonus\civs combo such as warrior->battering ram, or pathfinder->CBs.

And natural wonders are just really not comparable. First, because there are always more than one, always. Two, because they're never in the original area where you spawn if you SiP. So it leaves those open for competition among the different players in order to get it. Three, now that there are >1 tile natural wonders, there's a trade off between having those in your borders and losing tiles for your city or leaving them at the borders open for another civ to use its adjacency bonus as well. So yeah, really not the same thing.

As for luck being in the game, yeah. But is it a good reason to justify any OP random thing that could happen? Maybe then we should ask the devs to add random events scaling from "hey, your civilization just suffered a plague and your population goes back to 1 in every cities" to "you won the worldwide lottery, here's your 1 000 000 gold reward" ? If you like that sorts of extreme random things, that's what mods are for, but for a strategy game like Civ, having it in the base game is a non-sense.

Arguing that the possibility of finding "permanent" bonus of even +2 before T5 (and i'm being nice) vs everyone else getting a standard basic reward isnt idiotic is beyond me.

I think I agree that they're maybe too strong. HOWEVER, as a role playing element I really like the idea of my primitive people finding a mysterious object from some long-lost people and bringing it back to a prominent location in the village as a source of inspiration.

 

[cazaderonus]

I think I agree that they're maybe too strong. HOWEVER, as a role playing element I really like the idea of my primitive people finding a mysterious object from some long-lost people and bringing it back to a prominent location in the village as a source of inspiration.

Yeah i get the roleplaying element part. it's a nice touch and that's why the first time i saw the LP i though "oh, nice". That stopped asa i saw the yield of that thing though.

Maybe they could have do such "relics" but give them some link to the amenity system. Like +1 from entertainment\art instead of yields.

 

[Makenshi]

Civ 5 -> pop hut -> one time bonus of 20 faith. Could be the difference between getting a nice pantheon or a crappy one; not absolutely relevant regarding religion itself late, but could influence.

Civ 6 -> pop hut -> get relic that is stashed and forever gives +x faith per turn. Did I get this right or misread? If true, omg omg omg, that's defo the difference between getting a religion or not at all.

Anyway, I usually turn huts off in Civ 5; prob gon do same in 6

Late suggestion: such +x/turn relics should be found in excavations or w/e, like archeology stuff and what not

 

[cazaderonus]

Well, i was watching writing bull LP and he actually enters the civilopedia for tribal villages aka goodie huts. in the rewards listed there, there is no mention of relics.

"survivors such as builders or traders, technology or technology boosts, military units, faith, gold or culture"

So this would confirm the relics in the LPs were just a bug in the loot tables.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Civ 5 -> pop hut -> one time bonus of 20 faith. Could be the difference between getting a nice pantheon or a crappy one; not absolutely relevant regarding religion itself late, but could influence.

Civ 6 -> pop hut -> get relic that is stashed and forever gives +x faith per turn. Did I get this right or misread? If true, omg omg omg, that's defo the difference between getting a religion or not at all.

Anyway, I usually turn huts off in Civ 5; prob gon do same in 6

Late suggestion: such +x/turn relics should be found in excavations or w/e, like archeology stuff and what not

Faith does not provide religion. You still need a Holy District built/Stonehenge to get the Great Prophet points/Great Prophet

 

[Haggbart]

I love the goody huts. Every Civ V game I started off with a scout as soon as possible and get that and the warrior popping huts. I think perhaps they should lower the amount of goody huts rather than the bonuses within them?

Its a very difficult balance. I wouldn't want to lose the goody huts but making them too good may be a problem. Should be tied to difficulty level as it always has been so great huts on low levels and the odd good one at medium and rare on high etc.

I think how they did goody huts in CiV was perfectly fine. There was an opportunity cost to search for them, and they gave decent bonuses. However if you made then more rare and you hit the jackpot like described in this thread, to me it would feel almost like cheating. And I think it's important to strike the balance right so it feels like a "good catch", but also something that could happen to the other players, and not a cheat only available to you. I think CiVs goody huts were much better in that regard than the insane relic wonders from CivBERT.

Also I think a goody hut should give an instant boost. Instant gratification feels much better than a +? something for most people, and is less game-changing. Win-win situation.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I think how they did goody huts in CiV was perfectly fine. There was an opportunity cost to search for them, and they gave decent bonuses. However if you made then more rare and you hit the jackpot like described in this thread, to me it would feel almost like cheating. And I think it's important to strike the balance right so it feels like a "good catch", but also something that could happen to the other players, and not a cheat only available to you. I think CiVs goody huts were much better in that regard than the insane relic wonders from CivBERT.

Also I think a goody hut should give an instant boost. Instant gratification feels much better than a +? something for most people, and is less game-changing. Win-win situation.

I guess I'd be okay with that if they stop handing out maps of some blank space out in the middle of the ocean. :/

I still like the idea of finding a relic in a ruins as I've said. If there's a way to tone down the bonus I still like it.

 

[BrokenBokken]

Faith does not provide religion. You still need a Holy District built/Stonehenge to get the Great Prophet points/Great Prophet

This isn't true. You can rush buy a great prophet with faith.

 

[George Abitbol]

I'm a big fan of ruins in CiV, it forces players to explore. I don't mind building 3, 4 scouts.

I'm quite excited about the relics, it's less abstract than the culture/faith ruin saying something like "You found artifact from a previous civilization, here X culture/faith". At least the artifact does exist and I like the fact it can create jealousy from others civ very early in the game, which can try to trade it, or take it by force.

That reminds me Age of Empire 2 where relics where important, and controlling all of them was one the victory conditions.


PS:.. what does "gotm" mean?

 

[Siptah]

This isn't true. You can rush buy a great prophet with faith.

Yes, you can. But you can't use a great prophet without Stonehenge or a Holy Site, because religions need to be founded there and not in cities.

 

[Browd]

PS:.. what does "gotm" mean?

Game of the Month. See this forum: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=411

 

[cazaderonus]

Yes, you can. But you can't use a great prophet without Stonehenge or a Holy Site, because religions need to be founded there and not in cities.

Yep. Still you d be able to delay your holy site and build itwhen needed to use the great prophet instead of having to priorize very early when hammers have a lot more value.

But as i said in an earlier post. Civilopedia doesnt include relics in the rewards from tribal villages so i think this debate is useless and this was just an error

 

[Acken]

And theres also the tourism for later on.

Anyway its not that getting a relic is bad. If its good for flavor keep it in but it shouldnt be +4 faith :crazyeyes:

Either way as mentioned it may be a bug or something for low difficulties who knows... would make more sense like free workers in civ5.

 

[isau]

It's powerful but not that overpowered. Settling near a Natural Wonder could easily give a bonus of +4 Faith. Faith doesn't get you religions anymore so I don't really see an issue with it. Plus don't forget, if screenshots of spying are accurate, enemy civs have the ability to steal it.

EDIT: Forgot you can rush-buy GP with Faith. But still, point about Natural Wonders stands. They might reduce the Faith of the relic to around +2 before release. But I don't think it's too crazy or out of alignment with other "naturally occurring" faith boons.

 

[Acken]

Working a wonder requires settling next to it and working the tile (although in civ6 it seems to be mostly adjacency and tile bonuses ?). Also it is visible by multiple players when the map is created. There are multiple wonders on a map visible to everyone. And finally every players of a gotm game will be able to settle it.

An accurate comparison would be something like finding el dorado first (not in how gamebreaking it was but in its principle).