Relic from a goody hut

[Stilgar08]

how is it NOT fantastic compared to mere eurekas, inspirations, 1pop, etc. ? It stays with you and represents 400 faith over the 100 first turns. Which is along with a few GPP a free rushbuy of a GP using faith without having to invest even 1 hammer in faith production.

yeah, it IS fantastic - on this we agree... Although I'm having fun doing this discussion I'd like to remind all of us, that the figures might get changed anyways. But assuming it stays as it is:
I just decide to welcome the finding of such a fantastic relic in a Goody Hut! Even more than the +1pop GH from CiV because it's better for immersion IMO. And (I know you think differently) personally I don't think it's gamebreakingly OPed...

Like this:

I think I agree that they're maybe too strong. HOWEVER, as a role playing element I really like the idea of my primitive people finding a mysterious object from some long-lost people and bringing it back to a prominent location in the village as a source of inspiration.

I even concur to some of the statements concerning comparability in GOTMs or other competitions. But won't you have a big edge in CiV GOTMs when you get the +1pop or the major techlead out of Goody Huts? So nothin' new here... If you want this to be left out in the equation you have to turn off GHs...

Furthermore: What makes you think only one GH gives this high benefit? Could be every now and then that two or three or more players get big bonusses out of them. One of the things I like about CiVI so far is their bold approach when it comes to boni and diversity. They should keep it like that...

Except you still have to go on goody hut chase. just for the simple reason of exploring to search for expo locations, CSes, other civs etc... Goodie huts arent an end in themselves, they're just opportunities along the way. And for that reason, their bonuses needs to remain scaled to the very early game. Most of CiV were balanced aside from the weird bonus\civs combo such as warrior->battering ram, or pathfinder->CBs.

You don't need Goody Huts as incentive to go on explorations. You just might wouldn't bother to pop them if they are not in your way anyways and the boni are more "lame"...

"Reasonable bonusses" is always part of your own feeling what's reasonable and whats not. and since evreyone has a chance to get the GH it's not that big of a deal comparing it to OPed civ UIs, UAs, UUs etc.

You want that GH for the possible benefit to your Civ. You would go exploring without GHs nevertheless.

And natural wonders are just really not comparable. First, because there are always more than one, always. Two, because they're never in the original area where you spawn if you SiP. So it leaves those open for competition among the different players in order to get it. Three, now that there are >1 tile natural wonders, there's a trade off between having those in your borders and losing tiles for your city or leaving them at the borders open for another civ to use its adjacency bonus as well. So yeah, really not the same thing.

Ok if you say so...
But:

- There are more than one Goody hut out there as well
- Natural wonder bonusses differ on a high level IMO
- You have the bonus the whole game through - like with the relic (except it might get stolen ;p )
- SiP?? I thought we're talking Goodyhut hunting here?
- competition to get it? Same goes for GHs
- The tradeoff is barely there if you look at the benefits you get...

Please keep in mind that I have no problem with Natural Wonders and the diversity of their bonusses or that I might be lucky or not having one nearby. I just made that statement in order to set the big yikes concerning this "infamously OP-relic from a Goody hut" into perspective.

As for luck being in the game, yeah. But is it a good reason to justify any OP random thing that could happen? Maybe then we should ask the devs to add random events scaling from "hey, your civilization just suffered a plague and your population goes back to 1 in every cities" to "you won the worldwide lottery, here's your 1 000 000 gold reward" ? If you like that sorts of extreme random things, that's what mods are for, but for a strategy game like Civ, having it in the base game is a non-sense.

I'd like to answer this with quoting myself:

As always when a new civ comes out there's a discussion concerning "random events" or bonusses based on luck, eg getting that Goody Hut.

We have the same discussion everytime. Your examples are putting it to extremes, like my example concerning the Starting location did... Turn off goody huts - no more luck on this part of the game... not even a mod needed for that - advanced settings and you're fine Although: You might be lucky not having lots of barbarians around. What about ressources you get and other don't? Why on earth are you on this crappy lonely island? (Again: Just to get it in perspective...)

Arguing that the possibility of finding "permanent" bonus of even +2 before T5 (and i'm being nice) vs everyone else getting a standard basic reward isnt idiotic is beyond me.

easy, bro!

 

[Ryika]

Telling people to turn of goody huts is pretty silly in a discussion about goody hut balance. People obviously want goody huts to work for them, because goody huts are fun and are a very nice reward of the otherwise pretty boring exploration process ("Then don't explore the map if it is boring to you!"). And to work for somewhat competitively minded players they all have to be on a somewhat equal power level. Not on "exactly the same" power level, but in the same ballpark, so that getting or not getting a specific ruin early on doesn't just "win you the game". From what we can tell that bonus just isn't in the same ballpark.

I don't even get why people still argue about it as if it's an either-or-thing. Make semi-balanced bonuses as the standard setting and then add an option to allow for more crazy bonuses. Then everybody can choose what they want - it's that simple, and shouldn't take more than 20 minutes to implement. The beauty of having advanced options available to you.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I'd like to do some math.

First of all, the tourism bonus is very weak given that, a, we don't actually know how much an average tourism yield from any other great work is going to b, even so, the yield would be insignificant since you have to met every civ to start exerting your Tourism on them.

Now, let's make some math

Let's assume that the first Great Prophet costs around, oh, say 500 faith.

If you find the great Relic on Turn 2. and it yields +4 faith,

then it will take 127 turns, for you to get enough faith to purchase it, assuming your only source of faith is from that relic.

Let's say that you take get the relic on Turn 2, and on Turn 8 discover Code of Laws, for the first 8 turns, you make 32 faith from the Relic. You use the God-King, an dnow make +5 faith per turn.

Then, on Turn 8, you will get enough faith in about 94 turns, so that's Turn 102.

Now let's take into consideration, how long it will take for you to get A Great Prophet from a Holy District.

I'm going to assume, that you will need to wait the first 16 turns to get Astrology (without the boost), and up to 8 turns, with a boost. You will then spend, let's assume, about 10 turns to get the Holy District, which will provide you with one point of Great Prophet Point. If you need 70 GPP to get a prophet, then that's about Turn 88.

Let's make the assumption that the Holy District has managed to get an adjacenecy bonus of 6, and that you will yield 8 faith per turn (2 base yield + 6 adjacency bonus), on top of the great relic and God-King for 12 per turn. So on Turn 18, you will make 12 per turn, and have made in the previous 18 turns

32 faith over 8 turns, before God-King (with a Relic)
50 faith over 10 turns, after God-King, with a Relic.

So you will need 418 more faith to make to buy a Great Prophet.

So it will then take 35 more turns to get enough faith to purchase a Great Prophet, which, in total, will be around turn 53.

Which, isn't really that early. And even then it's if you literally be-line for it, and get a good adjacency bonus.

I seem to have not been aware that the price of a Great Person goes down the more points you have earned for them. But still. you'd still get it within 70 turns with just the Holy District.

 

[BrokenBokken]

I'd like to do some math.

First of all, the tourism bonus is very weak given that, a, we don't actually know how much an average tourism yield from any other great work is going to b, even so, the yield would be insignificant since you have to met every civ to start exerting your Tourism on them.

Now, let's make some math

Let's assume that the first Great Prophet costs around, oh, say 500 faith.

If you find the great Relic on Turn 2. and it yields +4 faith,

then it will take 127 turns, for you to get enough faith to purchase it, assuming your only source of faith is from that relic.

Let's say that you take get the relic on Turn 2, and on Turn 8 discover Code of Laws, for the first 8 turns, you make 32 faith from the Relic. You use the God-King, an dnow make +5 faith per turn.

Then, on Turn 8, you will get enough faith in about 94 turns, so that's Turn 102.

Now let's take into consideration, how long it will take for you to get A Great Prophet from a Holy District.

I'm going to assume, that you will need to wait the first 16 turns to get Astrology (without the boost), and up to 8 turns, with a boost. You will then spend, let's assume, about 10 turns to get the Holy District, which will provide you with one point of Great Prophet Point. If you need 70 GPP to get a prophet, then that's about Turn 88.

Let's make the assumption that the Holy District has managed to get an adjacenecy bonus of 6, and that you will yield 8 faith per turn (2 base yield + 6 adjacency bonus), on top of the great relic and God-King for 12 per turn. So on Turn 18, you will make 12 per turn, and have made in the previous 18 turns

32 faith over 8 turns, before God-King (with a Relic)
50 faith over 10 turns, after God-King, with a Relic.

So you will need 418 more faith to make to buy a Great Prophet.

So it will then take 35 more turns to get enough faith to purchase a Great Prophet, which, in total, will be around turn 53.

Which, isn't really that early. And even then it's if you literally be-line for it, and get a good adjacency bonus.

I seem to have not been aware that the price of a Great Person goes down the more points you have earned for them. But still. you'd still get it within 70 turns with just the Holy District.

Even if it doesn't get you a religion, it gives you the same faith per turn as a holy site that you managed to get next to 4 mountain spaces. Unless you're saying that faith is useless, a +4 to any yield early on is still way better than any other hut I've seen.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Even if it doesn't get you a religion, it gives you the same faith per turn as a holy site that you managed to get next to 4 mountain spaces. Unless you're saying that faith is useless, a +4 to any yield early on is still way better than any other hut I've seen.

In Civ 5 you had free techs, culture boosts and faith booths, in Civ 6 you get the same, except you get free Eureka and Inspiration bonuses without having to actually complete them.

 

[BrokenBokken]

In Civ 5 you had free techs, culture boosts and faith booths, in Civ 6 you get the same, except you get free Eureka and Inspiration bonuses without having to actually complete them.

I still don't think those sound as good as a flat yield boost of +4. Maybe 1 or 2 would be equivalent. I won't know for sure until I play, but that is my current assumption.

 

[Zaarin]

Honestly, I'd rather have a few slightly OP goody hut rewards than the rage of exploring a goody hut only to "find a map of the surrounding area" or "recent barbarian activity." But I'm not a competitive player at all. I typically play on Chieftain or Warlord because I find the AI to be too warlike on higher difficulties and I enjoy peaceful building.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Honestly, I'd rather have a few slightly OP goody hut rewards than the rage of exploring a goody hut only to "find a map of the surrounding area" or "recent barbarian activity." But I'm not a competitive player at all. I typically play on Chieftain or Warlord because I find the AI to be too warlike on higher difficulties and I enjoy peaceful building.

The solution is rather than take one OP bonus and nerf it, boost the other bonuses.

(ie for CivV example combine map of the surrounding area and 'barb activity' into 'reveal everything in a vast area')

 

[Palantir30]

The solution is rather than take one OP bonus and nerf it, boost the other bonuses.

(ie for CivV example combine map of the surrounding area and 'barb activity' into 'reveal everything in a vast area')

No, inflation doesn't solve everything. Making every GH bonus large means that the strategic choices of building anything are relatively less important. That's kinda the point of the last 4 pages.

 

[Ryika]

There can be "bad" bonuses, but Reveal Barb Camps is a good example of a bad bonus that feels really horrible, because more often than not it really doesn't do anything for you. The "Oh well, it's better than nothing." feeling just isn't there when it's almost as worthless as "literally getting nothing".

The same goes for the "reveal surroundings"-bonus in many cases.

 

[qadams]

Honestly, I'd rather have a few slightly OP goody hut rewards than the rage of exploring a goody hut only to "find a map of the surrounding area" or "recent barbarian activity."

I'll often play Civ 5 with a mod that gives all scouts the choice of rewards from ancient ruins just so I can avoid that disappointing letdown.

But I'm not a competitive player at all. I typically play on Chieftain or Warlord because I find the AI to be too warlike on higher difficulties and I enjoy peaceful building.

Same with me. War is fine (in a game, but never in real life) as an occasional diversion from the usual. Mostly, though, I'd rather focus on construction, culture, and happiness.

 

[Stilgar08]

Telling people to turn of goody huts is pretty silly in a discussion about goody hut balance..

Why? It's the same as "if you don't like it, mod it".

And to compare this option with "Don't explore the map" is once again over the edge - which you know...

I doubt you will get your option-setting concerning GHs, since it was never in and won't be this time. Maybe you're all right and it's a terrible terrible OPed thing. I doubt it!

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I still don't think those sound as good as a flat yield boost of +4. Maybe 1 or 2 would be equivalent. I won't know for sure until I play, but that is my current assumption.

Thinking on it a bit longer, though, is it really that much worse than the "+1 pop" reward we see in the game now? Not sure. It's still good though, so maybe it is: like a free monument or shrine in a way (better).

It's certainly not as good as free settler we'd see on earlier games and lower difficulties though.

 

[BrokenBokken]

Thinking on it a bit longer, though, is it really that much worse than the "+1 pop" reward we see in the game now? Not sure. It's still good though, so maybe it is: like a free monument or shrine in a way (better).

It's certainly not as good as free settler we'd see on earlier games and lower difficulties though.

+1 pop gives you a probable yield of about 2 and of way more common resources at that point in the game. Also, since the cost per pop increases with each one you have, it pushes you closer to plateauing. Especially since their will be limits like housing and amenities early on. This is why I said a yield of +1 or +2 might be more in line.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Why? It's the same as "if you don't like it, mod it"

There's a difference between subjective "like" and objective "balance".

On the other hand, balance doesn't exist in pure single-player game. Concerns about goody hut balance are only valid for competitive games like GoTM and even in this, they pretty easily solved by setting goody hut bonuses on map generation. So rerolling will not help gaining better results.

 

[ProMeTheus112]

Of course balance exists in a single player game, why not ? For example, balance between the game's systems allows each to work well with each other and lets the game flourish into many more possibilities, and depth. If you throw anything out of balance it does the opposite. It can also mean of course balance in terms of how much of a chance to win or lose you may have (an extreme example of imbalance making it impossible to win). In the case of goody hut, we have opportunity cost of not rushing for discovering as many goody huts, luck factor of getting or not the best goody hut, and what happens in the higher difficulties of the game such as AI opponents having more opportunity to catch the goody huts.

If you place a few really imbalanced bonuses in there you can see there can be imbalance in a single player game, e.g. a goody hut that gives you a nuke at the start of the game A swordman unit with 100 combat strength.

Balance does not at all mean only making chances to win equal to every players in a multiplayer game ; even in a multiplayer game it means other things.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

+1 pop gives you a probable yield of about 2 and of way more common resources at that point in the game. Also, since the cost per pop increases with each one you have, it pushes you closer to plateauing. Especially since their will be limits like housing and amenities early on. This is why I said a yield of +1 or +2 might be more in line.

Still essentually doubles the size of your empire at the time.

I still like the relic idea, though. I agree with you that maybe they could build a "special" relic in the huts that is not as good as one you would normally get.

It might just all be over a bug that isn't going to be in the game and this big long discussion is over nothing. Ha, oh well it's still fun to think about.

 

[BrokenBokken]

Claiming balance doesn't matter in a single play game means they can make any mechanic as broken as they want and it would still be fun. America starts with three tanks! But only in single player so it doesn't matter. It would still be fun having America conquer you on turn five because they started with three tanks and balance doesn't matter in single player.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

There's a difference between subjective "like" and objective "balance".

On the other hand, balance doesn't exist in pure single-player game. Concerns about goody hut balance are only valid for competitive games like GoTM and even in this, they pretty easily solved by setting goody hut bonuses on map generation. So rerolling will not help gaining better results.

I was going to agree with you but then I thought of the super-unbalanced trade routes in CivBE, essentially (for as little as I ended up playing the game at least) making all of the other neat mechanics and ideas for the game unimportant.

 

[ProMeTheus112]

I agree that finding a relic is a fun idea, just needs good balance so that it doesn't feel like it is worth such a big proportion of your production at the start of the game for so many turns to build something of similar strategic value ; since this is based on race to explore at the root start of the game, and luck. The start of the game gives root to a lot of the rest of the game, so it is not unimportant!