[Religion and Revolution]: Inventions Part B, Unlocking Ships

[raystuttgart]

Hi everybody,

First, let us again agree on the basic concept and then go into the details (the inventions, their order / dependencies and their effects).

Similar to the concept for military units on land, I would like to introduce the following:

New Ships (units) unlocked by Inventions

I see 5 general Types of Ships

1. Light Commercial, small, fast and realtively cheap (e.g. Caravel, Merchantman)
2. Heavy Commercial, big, slow and relatively expensive (e.g. Galeon)
3. Military Defensive / Counter, fast and specialised to fight certain other ships (e.g. Fregates)
4. Military Offensive, slow and heavily armed (e.g. Ship of the Line)
5. Special Purpose, having certain special abilities (e.g. Whaling Ship, Privateer, Smuggling Ship)

I would like to see some kind of evolution for each of these Types.
(Still thinking about the details but very open for suggestions. )

Eventually we could introduce new / more Ships.

New Promotions unlocked and eventually directly assigned to Ships

Similar to the concept for Military Units on Land.
Some Inventions simply unlock Promotions others also directly give them to the corresponding units.

Promotions could do all kind of things:
Increase Strength, Speed, Berth Size, Special Abilities, ...

Problems
(Or Aspects to consider )

A) The King's Fleet

Again, it should not happen that the player could simply wipe away the king's fleet when declaring independence in lategame, because he has acquired powerful new ships.

B) Old / "Outdated" Ships

I do not think this is a problem here.
When new Ships are available, the old ones will still be available, too.

AI should know what to build.
Eventually we will need to make some small adjustments in AI logic.
(We will see when testing ...)

No Upgrading of old Ship here.
(Ships are really big and it is not easy to change them.)

C) Treasures

We need to make sure, that treasures can somehow be transported to the old world.
(It would be really bad, if the only ship that can transport treasures is availalbe only in late game ...)

---------------------------------

Feedback, Comments, Ideas ?

 

[Vorpal+5]

The Americans never had more than frigates during the Revolution. They were not meant to fight the English ship of the lines, but were more than a match for the equivalent British ships... Ideally, you will want to have the possibility for frigates to get some gold by blockade each turn, representing how the Americans harassed British shipping lines. Also, it is super important that defensive withdrawal is in place, so they can retreat with very high odd against British SOLs.

As for SOLs, it is when the French entered war alongside the US that the first battles occurred, ship of lines against ship of lines. Here I think that the foreign intervention should be the only source of SOLs for the players. Building three deckers as a new nation is stupid and not historically feasible, it has no purpose. Perhaps founding fathers can give you a batch of SOLs, or allying with an AI can give you that.

By the way, will we be able to see an allied AI fight with us? This was in Col 94, but I never saw that in Col-Civ4.

 

[raystuttgart]

By the way, will we be able to see an allied AI fight with us? This was in Col 94, but I never saw that in Col-Civ4.

I already implemented that feature together with the TAC team.
(... when I was still a member of the TAC team myself.)

 

[Robert Surcouf]

I like the sound of this.

First of all, here's what I did with my Storm and Light Mod: I added three naval promotions and four inventions which unlocked ships or promotions (I know, it isn't much!)

The three new promotions are:
-Mobility 1: (-1 movement cost) [naval units]
-Sea Explorer: doubles movement on Favorable Wind plots [naval units]
-Mobility 2 (+10% attack and defense on wind features) [naval units]

And my inventions were:
- Letters of Marque: unlocks privateers.
- Navigation: allows Mobility 1
- Optics: allows Navigation 2
- Telescope: allows allows Mobility 2

Most of those invention were early inventions. Of course we can improve all this.
E.G. Optics could also unlock Whaling Ships...

I also added Astronomy and Physics (Astronomy required Optics, and Physics required Astronomy). But they unlocked buildings: a workshop for Astronomy and a Laboratory for Physics

 

[raystuttgart]

I suggest the following:

1. Let us collect a list of ships and promotions that should be unlocked by inventions.
2. Let us collect a list of inventions of that time, that could basically fit.
3. Let us work out the details of these inventions.

I really think the only way we will handle this is by trying to solve it in a structured way.

 

[Robert Surcouf]

All right!

But before that, I must ask. What is Berth Size?

 

[raystuttgart]

What is Berth Size?

Berth is cargo space in a ship.
(At least I think so. )

When I was talking about inreasing "Berth Size", that basicaly would mean increasing number of "Cargo Slots".

If you take a look in Civ4UnitInfos.xml:
(But that is not the value I want to increase, I just tried to explain the word "Berth".)

iBerthSize -> Defines how much cargo space a unit requires in a ship.

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone,

Ray, you must be wrong... Berth size doesn't exist in vanilla Civ4Col, but only in TAC. Don't you have any idea on it's function?

I've looked into naval history, and I've found a few Ideas:
List of ships we can use:
- Caravel, Merchantman, Carrack, Fluyt (Light Commercial)
- Galleon (Heavy Commercial)
- Brig, "standard" Privateer (Privateer ships, special)
- Sloop, Corvette (Small military ships, they were even called "escort ships in early times, that is before 18th century, if I'm correct)
- Frigate, Ships of the Line (Military Offensive)
- Whaling Ship, Smuggling Ship (Special)

1. Let us collect a list of ships and promotions that should be unlocked by inventions.

You're right: here's a list for starters...
We should be able to unlock the following ships and/or promotions:
- Corvette
- Frigate
- Ships of the Line
- Whaling Ship
- Smuggling Ship
- Mobility 1
- Mobility 2
- Flanking 3
- Navigation 3
- Cargo holds (+1 cargo space)

Unlocking galleons isn't a good idea... It seems risky to have to wait with our treasures in the New World

2. Let us collect a list of inventions of that time, that could basically fit.
3. Let us work out the details of these inventions.

So the inventions that could fit are:
- Optics (unlocks Whaling ship and mobility 1)
- Astronomy (unlocks a new building (e.g. inventors workshop) , needed to research Physics , requires optics and navigation)
- Physics (unlocks cargo hold and a new building (e.g. a lab), requires astronomy)
- Navigation (unlocks Corvette and and flanking 3)
- Sextant (unlocks navigation 3, requires optics and navigation)
- Chemistry (unlocks Frigate and SOL, requires Physics and Sextant)
- Letters of Marque (unlocks Brig, and Smuggling Ship )

What do you think about this?

 

[raystuttgart]

Ray, you must be wrong...

No, I am right.

Maybe I did express myself a little misunderstanding, sorry.

The definition of iBerthSize I gave was correct.
However iBerthSize is not the value I would increase with inventions.
iCargo is the one that would increase "berth size" / cargo slots of a ship.

I just tried to explain the word "berth".

// PatchMod: Berth size START
	if (pTransport->cargoSpaceAvailable(getSpecialUnitType(), getDomainType()) < getUnitInfo().getBerthSize())
	{
		return false;
	}

Berth size doesn't exist in vanilla Civ4Col, but only in TAC. Don't you have any idea on it's function?

True, it is not part of Vanilla.
(Sorry, I sometimes do not remember anymore, what is Vanilla and what was added. )

It was part of PatchMod (from Dale) which became part of TAC.

So there are 2 settings:

1.iRequiredTransportSize --> From Vanilla, simply saying how big the ship needs to be to transport the unit

2. iBerthSize --> From Patchmod, defining how much cargospace the unit takes inside the ship.

Example:

If iRequiredTransportSize in Vanilla was 6, a Galeon could still transport 6 of these units to have more evolution.

Now for example if iRequiredTransportSize is 6 and iBerthSize is 3, then a Galeon can only transprt 2 of these units.

What do you think about this?

I have to think a little about it.

But generally, yes sounds ok.
However I would eventually like to have some more inventions.

About Brig ,Sloop and Corvette:
Yes, let us add them.

If we take together all categories of inventions (Land, Ships, Economy, Features) then I am thinking about 60 inventions in total.

 

[raystuttgart]

So ok, I have made myself a few thoughts about ships and their evolution through inventions.
(Of course, this is just a start for this concept.)

Suggestion for "Evolution" of Ships:

red: new ships
Values in Brackets: (Strength / Movement / Cargo Slots)
Sequence of Unlocking: -->

Light Commercial:

Caravel (3/4/2) and Fluyt for Holland (3/3/3) --> Carack (4/3/4) --> Merchantman (4/4/4) --> Brigantine (5/4/4)

Heavy Commercial:

Galleon (4/4/5)* --> Galleon (5/4/6)** --> War Galleon (6/4/6)***

*Will be able to transport 1 treasure.
** Will be able to transport 2 treasures (no new unit, only upgrade of stats)
*** Will also be able to attack other ships

Military:

Sloop (4/5/0) --> Corvette (5/5/0) --> Frigate (7/5/0) --> Ship of the Line (9/4/0)

Special Purposes:

Piracy: Brig (4/4/1) --> Privateer (5/4/2) --> Privateer (6/5/2)****
Whaling: Whaling Boat (1/2/1) --> Whaling Ship (2/3/1)
Smuggling: No Smuggling --> Smugglingship (2/5/1)

**** Only improvement of stats, no new unit

King:

Man-O-War

Pirates:

Small Pirateship, Medium Pirateship, Huge Pirateship

------------------------

10 new ships in total

The fantastic news is:
I have found existing graphics for all of them !!!
(Of course, we would need to ask permission for using these graphics from the modders who did them. )

Feedback ?

 

[Robert Surcouf]

My mistake! Thank you for the explanation (about iBerthSize)

You really have good ideas.
I like the sequence of unlocking, but there a few things I don't like.
I'm not to sure about the different values.

Values in Brackets: (Strength / Movement / Cargo Slots)

We'll have to discuss this ASAP. I'll post a new message as soon as I can...

About the graphics, you haven't told me if you liked the graphics I posted (new native units/ citystyle/leaderhead and ships with new flags)...

 

[raystuttgart]

My mistake! Thank you for the explanation (about iBerthSize)

Nothing to thank for.

You really have good ideas.

I am really happy that you like so many of my crazy idea.

I like the sequence of unlocking, but there a few things I don't like.
I'm not to sure about the different values.

It is just a first suggestion ...

We'll have to discuss this ASAP. I'll post a new message as soon as I can...

No need to hurry.

About the graphics, you haven't told me if you liked the graphics I posted (new native units/ citystyle/leaderhead and ships with new flags)...

Yes, I do like them.

Especially the ships could be interesting for this discussion.
(I think, we could simply try some of these, once our concept is done.)

The Native Leaderheads I had already seen in other CivCol-Mods.
(KJ used one for Inuits for example.)

 

[Robert Surcouf]

So basically, I like the sound of it, but I really find your military ship's strength far too low.
I really DON'T want to see a Caravel sinking a Frigate!
And I really think we should discuss the Cargo Slots...

So ok, I have made myself a few thoughts about ships and their evolution through inventions.
(Of course, this is just a start for this concept.)

Yes, we're only just starting!

Suggestion for "Evolution" of Ships:

red: new ships
Values in Brackets: (Strength / Movement / Cargo Slots)
Sequence of Unlocking: -->

By the way, do you know that with Kailric's inventor modcomp we can do all this (especially improve a ships strength without adding new units). Are we going to use his modcomp, or not? What do you think?

Light Commercial:
Caravel (3/4/2) and Fluyt for Holland (3/3/3) --> Carack (4/3/4) --> Merchantman (4/4/4) --> Brigantine (5/4/4)

About a new Brigantine ship, let's add it! Of course, we should maybe ask first our new team-member his opinion. What do you think Colonialfan?
But for me it's a yes!

Heavy Commercial:
Galleon (4/4/5)* --> Galleon (5/4/6)** --> War Galleon (6/4/6)***

*Will be able to transport 1 treasure.
** Will be able to transport 2 treasures (no new unit, only upgrade of stats)
*** Will also be able to attack other ships

I'm puzzled. A war Galleon is a military ship, isn't it? I would also like to add a second kind of Galleons... So why not, but a war Galleon doesn't seem to be a commercial ship... Am I missing something (strangely in french version of the game, Ships of The Line are called..."Galions de Guerre" which literally means..."War Galleon". How strange!)
This isn't the most important part. Heavy Commercial ships should be quite slow... At least they should be slower than Light Commercial ships

I would rather try this:
Caravel (3/4/2) and Fluyt for Holland (3/3/3) --> Carack (4/4/4) --> Merchantman (4/5/4) --> Brigantine (5/5/4)
Galleon (4/3/5)* --> Galleon (5/4/6)** --> War Galleon (6/4/6)***

Military:
Sloop (4/5/0) --> Corvette (5/5/0) --> Frigate (7/5/0) --> Ship of the Line (9/4/0)

Sloop 4/5/0. A Galleon will probably win against my sloop
Military strength seems extremely low!
Couldn't we try this:
Sloop (8/7/0) --> Corvette (10/6/1) --> Frigate (12/6/2) --> Ship of the Line (15/5/2)
By the way, shouldn't military ships be able to transport units? Maybe they shouldn't be able to transport goods, but they must be able to transport units...
(to be continued)...

 

[raystuttgart]

By the way, do you know that with Kailric's inventor modcomp we can do all this (especially improve a ships strength without adding new units).

Yes I know, that is why I wrote at the Improvement-Levels of Galleon and Privateer, that no new unit is required.

But for example with "War Galleon" it would simply be much easier to do it with a new unit.
(Capability of also attacking ships.)

Are we going to use his modcomp, or not? What do you think?

We will use it as base to create our modified / enhanced version of it, yes.

Of course, we should maybe ask first our new team-member his opinion. What do you think Colonialfan?
But for me it's a yes!

Of course.

I'm puzzled. A war Galleon is a military ship, isn't it? I would also like to add a second kind of Galleons... So why not, but a war Galleon doesn't seem to be a commercial ship... Am I missing something (strangely in french version of the game, Ships of The Line are called..."Galions de Guerre" which literally means..."War Galleon". How strange!)

I simply wanted to have a more powerful Galleon as last level, which could be also used for at least defending in WOI later on.

This isn't the most important part. Heavy Commercial ships should be quite slow... At least they should be slower than Light Commercial ships

A little slower, yes.
But they would of course also be much expensive ...

I would rather try this:
Caravel (3/4/2) and Fluyt for Holland (3/3/3) --> Carack (4/4/4) --> Merchantman (4/5/4) --> Brigantine (5/5/4)
Galleon (4/3/5)* --> Galleon (5/4/6)** --> War Galleon (6/4/6)***

Ok.

Sloop 4/5/0. A Galleon will probably win against my sloop

A Sloop should not be much stonger than a Galleon in my opinion.
Stronger ships of course should be able to take on Galleons.

Military strength seems extremely low!
Couldn't we try this:
Sloop (8/7/0) --> Corvette (10/6/1) --> Frigate (12/6/2) --> Ship of the Line (15/5/2)

I tried to orientate myself a little at TAC, since that was basically a working system.

Yes , military ships should definitely be stronger than non-military.
But the difference should not be too extreme also.

I will think about it.

By the way, shouldn't military ships be able to transport units? Maybe they shouldn't be able to transport goods, but they must be able to transport units...

Your are right.

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Well here nothing much to say...

Special Purposes:
Piracy: Brig (4/4/1) --> Privateer (5/4/2) --> Privateer (6/5/2)****
Whaling: Whaling Boat (1/2/1) --> Whaling Ship (2/3/1)
Smuggling: No Smuggling --> Smugglingship (2/5/1)
**** Only improvement of stats, no new unit

Again I would increase privateer's strength...

King:
Man-O-War
Pirates:
Small Pirateship, Medium Pirateship, Huge Pirateship
------------------------

Logically, I would suggest something like this:
Man-O-War (18/5/4)

 

[Schmiddie]

I like the idea of having much more ships in the game!

Personally I like the idea of giving at least 1 ship to every nation if it is possible. Maybe the carrack for Spain and Portugal, the flyt for Holland, the sloop for England, the corvette for France (the Royal Navy used sloops and had no corvettes in their ship list, the French Navy had no sloops)...would that suit?

Do we need another graphic?

Maybe we can use this one... http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=16515