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[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Religion and Revolution' started by Robert Surcouf, Sep 5, 2011.

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  1. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I know. :)

    It is always a matter of personal taste, but I understand your point.

    Yes, I think we should focus on Colonial-Phase and War of Independence.
    (Without limiting the game duration / number of rounds by the way. :)
    TAC is different here ...)

    That is also why I was not really a fan of integrating CIV-like concepts like technologies or wonders. (Even now I am not sure about these aspects. :) )
    But in the many discussions I had about features, there was a huge part of the community that really wanted aspects like these.
    So I spent some time creating concepts for these, that would a least somehow fit for the atmosphere of colonization.

    I am simply introducing these concepts here and see how people (escpecially team-mebers, which is currently only me and Robert) react.
    We will porbably only do things we really really like.
    It is not like I am insisting on any of these concepts, it is really simply "Hey, what do you think about this idea ?".

    And also maybe some other even better idea will evolve ... ;)
     
  2. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    About Trading Companies / Monopolies

    Maybe we simply put this concept in List "Undecided" for now and see how things will evolve ? :)
     
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I think we rather stay with the concept for "Slavery" we have.
    Our existing concept simply fits a lot better into the global picture and is also easier to implement.

    Thanks for your input though. :goodjob:
     
  4. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Alright !
    You're right colonialfan, there weren't any monopolies...

    Oh, I almost forgot about the new buildings.
    I added two new buildings:
    TOTEM POLE (replaces Warehouse (!) ) : +100 yields storage and +1 hammer (50 turns for a brave is a little too much, isn't it?)
    SACRIFICIAL ALTAR (same as Totem Pole, for Aztecs ans Incas)

    They cost 15 hammers/15 tools (instead of 30 hammers for "usual" warehouse).

    Do you like the idea?
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    So ok, since the last idea was pretty fast discussed, here is the next. :)

    Private Traders and Robbers

    Basic ideas:

    1. Not all trade in the New World was done by nations of course.
    There were some private persons or companies trading between the companies as well.

    2. It would bring some more live into the game / on the map and some fun hunting / protecting them.

    Feature

    1. There would be another Fraction "Private Traders".
    (It would be its own civ, similar to Wild Animals.)

    2. This fraction is neutral and cannot be openly attacked by Europeans, Natives or Kings.
    (Animals and Pirates could do so though.)

    3. To keep things easy, there would be no Leader and no Diplomacy with "Private Traders".
    (Eventually we could think about this in the future again.)

    4. From time to time (random with XML-Settings) a Trader Unit (Either Wagon Train inland or Ship in harbour-city) will be spawned in a European Colony.

    -> Because of few cities in the beginning there would be very few Private Traders.
    In lategame, when Europeans have many cities, there would be more.

    5. Once spawned, the "Private Trader" will randomly pick another reachable European City of another Nation or Native Village as target and will start moving there. -> Own UnitAI
    (If it does not find a suitable target, it will simply disappear again.)

    6. If the "Private Trader" arrives at its target, then the nation of the origin and the nation of the target will get a small amount of gold and the "Private Trader" will pick its next target of another Nation of course.
    (The money payed is something like a trading tax.)

    7. Privateers and a new unit "Robber" will be able to catch (und thus destroy) these "Private Traders".
    Privateers will get a random amount of some goods, Robbers will generate a little amount of gold for their nation.
    (Just enough to keep it interesting to hunt them.)

    8. However, you cannot attack a "Private Trader" with a Privateer or Robber at all, if its origin-city or its target-city is one of yours.
    In this case you should eventually try to protect them.

    9. Some more words about "Robbers": (Not "Roberts" by the way. :lol:)

    • Robbers can only attack some Transport-Units on land (Wagon Train, Train, ...).
    • They are generally weeker than military units.
    • They have both "Hidden Nationality" and "Invisibility".
    • Only some units like Scouts and Native Mercenaries will make them visible, when standing in their sight range.
    • Once spotted by Europeans they will react hostile and try to kill the "Robber".
    • Natives will be able to see Robbers and try to kill them.
    • Wild Animals can see them and will attack them.
    • Of course if they attack, they become visible.
    • Also if by "accident" another military unit will enter the same field, they become visible and will fight and in most cases be killed.
    • Also, Robbers are able to steal small amounts of gold every round from a city of another European, when standing next to it. (Special action.)
    • When stealing gold from a city, there is a small chance, that the robber is noticed and thus becomes visible for 5 rounds. -> He will still have moving points but he should better run ...
    • Robbers can be hired from Tavern.
      (Tavern will become a recruitment-place for criminals, robbers, old veterans, ... but that is another feature. :) )

    -----------------

    Feedback ? :)
     
  6. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Generally yes, but there is a special "Warehouse" for Natives already included in TAC.
    (It is called "Chickee".)

    So there is a conflict here. :(
     
  7. colonialfan

    colonialfan Warlord

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    Hey Ray, sorry if I sounded a little negative about your Monopolies and trading companies idea, that was not my intention. :blush: I was just giving some feedback on what my struggles were with how it would fit into the game in a historical sense. We all love the game or rather the potential of the game as it evolves, so I'm assuming we are all interested in that period of history? But hey, majority rules, if the wider community is interested in such an idea, go with it.

    As for your Private traders and robbers idea, I like it, especially the element of private traders, many an American fortune was made through illicit trade, just ask John Hancock:) Just a little curious about the robbers and why natives would ignore them? If you are at war with a native tribe, will robbers still be ignored? Also could robbers steal from Indian villages as well as cities?
     
  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    @colonialfan:

    I changed the aspect of Natives attacking robbers.
    (Because it is easier to implement and mor realistic.)

    -> Natives will be able to see Robbers and try to kill them.

    No, only from European Cities.
    (The Natives would spot them too easily.)
     
  9. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I already said, that I am simply introducing my ideas and see how people react. :)
    I am very happy if there is feedback be it positive or negative. :goodjob:

    I also have features, where I am not absolutely sure myself.
    If then Robert does not say that he "loves" or "really wants" it, then usually a feature like that will go into list "Undecided".
    (Meaning, that we might eventually take a look at the idea again in the future.)
     
  10. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Well, I'm a little confused...

    Don't the Private Trader units belong to "Private Traders" faction?

    I'm not sure about the idea. I like the robbers idea. Recruiting units in Taverns/Saloons is a good idea.
    But of course they would have to rob something. Cities is a good idea... Private trader's units would be some kind of extra wagons, is that it?

    So I like parts of your idea, but I not sure about every part.

    About Totem poles and Sacrificial altar, my idea is a "four in one" idea:
    1) New buildings for natives.
    2) a) Increased yield storage
    b) Increased production
    3) Totems and Sacrifices !
    4) Those buildings replace standard warehouse

    Which ones do you like, and which ones don't you like? We can easily change item 4)
     
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Yes, it is a separate civ.
    ("Private Traders" are - similar to Wild Animals - spawned by randoms and controlled by AI.)

    The money they generate to you when trading with your cities is something like a business tax / trading tax / customs duty,
    so that they are allowed to trade in your cities.
    (But actually this part is optional. It was just my suggestion. We could leave this out ...)

    The whole idea behind this feature is bringing some more life on the map and to have some fun hunting or protecting units.
    (There would be maximally a few "Private Traders" on the map at the same time. It is only meant as a little addition.
    Balancing is key to this feature, just like it is with "Wild Animals".)

    Yes, extra wagons on land and extra ships on water.
    (Controlled by an extra civ.)

    No problem, it is just an idea. :)
    (We could simply put it into the "Undecided" list again and maybe take a look at it or only parts of it later on, if we have done our more important features.)

    It could be Native variant of SpecialBuilding_Crosses.
    So if you want to do this, why not. :thumbsup:

    -> I added it to our list "Planned".

    However, I do not really understand, what you want to say with "3) Totems and Sacrifices" ...
    (Do you want to have a new feature here ?)
     
  12. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Yes, that really looks cool. :)
     
  14. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Hi Jayhawks,

    Ok, I will try to answer some questions from your post here. :)

    Religion and Revolution is supposed to be quite different in gameplay compared to TAC.
    It is based on TAC, but that does not mean it will play like TAC. ;)

    Did you read this development thread ?
    By doing so it should become a little clearer, where we are heading.

    We have already discussed and decided on many features but a lot of the features have not even been introduced to the public here yet.

    Most of the ressources have some feature or idea behind !

    Inland Sales, Satisfaction, different social status of colonists resulting in different goods demanded, Luxury Goods from Europe, Stone needed for Buildings, Sailcloth and Ropes needed for Ships, Injuries and Diseases, Taverns, ...

    Also, the huge amount of buildings does not mean that you are supposed to build all of them in every city.
    Usually only a few of the production buildings really make sense in one city.
    You are supposed to build up quite specialised cities that exchange and trade the ressources.

    Ivory is not "Elephant Ivory", but "Walruss Ivory".

    Yes, I was member of TAC and generally there is still good contact to the members of TAC-team.

    TAC will stop modding what I call the "base-mod" after TAC 2.03 however. (They want to create scenarios.)
    I want to continue modding / adding features to the "base-mod".
     
  15. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Health

    General:

    Injuries and Diseases were a big problem in the first days of colonization.
    However, this aspect is pretty much ignored currently in CivCol.

    Me and some other modders had a lot of brainstorming about this aspect.
    (Probably more than about any other one feature.)

    We had come up with a variety of different concepts.
    Most of them quite complicated and extremely hard to program good AI for them.

    This concept is different though.
    We should be able to teach AI how to handle it. :)

    Feature:

    1. There would be a health-factor for every city.

    Range -5 to +5.

    -5, -4 --> Very Bad
    -3, -2 --> Bad
    -1, 0, +1 --> Normal
    2, 3 --> Good
    4, 5 --> Very Good

    There will be warnings, when Health is too low.

    2. Health would be negatively influenced by:

    A) Terrain where you build your city.

    Many city-plots with some Terrains will have negative effect.

    Marsh --> Diseases caused by insects.
    Thundra --> Diseases caused by cold weathre.
    Dessert --> Dehydration

    So every 3 city-plots of one of these TerrainTypes will give -1 Healthrate.

    B) City-Size

    People at that time were very unhygenic and huge cities often had many sick people.

    Every 3 Citizens you would get -1 Healthrate.
    (So cities below with 1 or 2 Citizens would not be affected here.)

    C) Citizens working in Factories

    Factories used to be places where a lot of pollution and injuries happened.

    Every 5 Citizens working in a factory will cause -1 Healthrate.

    3. Health would be positively influenced by:

    A) River at the central city plot.

    Fresh water was always very important for health and will give +1 Healthrate

    B) Healer's House and Hospital

    The buildings themself will give increase of Healthrate.

    Healer's House will give +1 Healtrate
    Hospital will give +2 Healtrate.

    C) Workers employed in Healer's House / Hospital

    Experienced Healers (Specialists) will give +1 Healthrate.
    Any other will give +0.5 Healtrate.

    D) Medicine spent

    When clicking on the Healer's House / Hospital you will get a dialog.
    (It could also be a button.)

    Within the dialog, there will be a slider which will allow you to set the amount of Medicine spent every round for healing your citizens.
    (On the rigth side you can see the effect, e.g. +1 Healthrate.)

    Of course you can only spend it, if it is available as good inside the city.

    Healthrate Increase Medicine = Amount Spent * 3 / Number of Citzens

    Example:
    9 Citizens in City.
    To get +1 Healtrate you would have to invest 3 Medicine every round.

    4. Effects of Health

    A) Health would become part of calculation for Satisfaction.
    (Satisfaction is important for production bonusses and military strength.)

    Of course, some aspects of Satisfaction would change.
    E.g. City size would not directly affect Satisfaction but indirectly throug Health.

    B) Low Health rates will increase food consumption and result in little chances for death of colonists (usually only at very bad health-rate , don't worry)

    C) High Health rates lowers Growth Threshold and result in little chances for spontaneous birth (usually only at very good health-rate)

    D) Low and high health-rates could trigger positive (Learning of Professions, City-Celebration, ...) or negative (Disease, Riot, Stealing of Food, ...) Events.

    5. AI

    European AI would produce Medicine by using workers, build Healer's House and Hospital already.
    There would be some logic to let AI distribute Medicine quite equaly throughout its colonies and also use it to increase its Health rate.
    Also European AI would buy Medicine from Europe if it cannot produce enough / does not have enough stored.
    (This would be done without affecting prices in Europe.)

    Also AI does not tend to create enormously big cities considering number of citizens.

    Native AI would not be affected by this feature.

    Summary:

    Of course the values I presented here are only a first suggestion for balancing.
    (There would be many xml-settings to perform balancing of this feature.)

    Health would become one more dimension in gameplay.
    It is not too complicated to handle for Players and AI.

    Only really big cities get problems here.
    With smaller cities in the beginning of the game, everything should be almost as usual.

    However, Health is something that you should keep an eye on.

    ------------------

    Feedback ? :)
     
  16. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Very good idea. I like it. It's similar to Civ 4 concepts. So I like it ;)
    However, could Forest have a positive effect too?

    And maybe we could discuss these two aspects:
    I'm not sure... I mean I'm not sure of what's best between your idea and this one:
    B) Low Health rates will increase food consumption
    C) High Health rates lowers Growth Threshold (ore something like that)

    What do you think? I'm just thinking out loud...
     
  17. colonialfan

    colonialfan Warlord

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    Love the idea :D It is an element that has sorely been missing from col94 & civcol. Will the health concept affect Indian civs as well, i.e. smallpox epidemics?
     
  18. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Should I put it on our list "Planned" then ?
    (Also, I would adjust concept for Satisfaction.)

    I would not like that.
    That is too much thinking in modern Civ4-patterns.
    Yes today nature increases health, but in the past, forests were a dangerous place.

    Actually I could generally imagine both solutions. :)

    We could also even do:

    B) Low Health rates will increase food consumption and increase chances for death of colonists (but rare, don't worry)
    C) High Health rates lowers Growth Threshold and increase chances for spontaneous birth (also rare)

    Sure, these concepts are supposed to be discussed and improved. :goodjob:
    (I am not saying, that they are the only or the best solution. They are simply my current idea. ;) )
     
  19. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    No, not this feature.

    Natives had adapted very well, to the nature and knew a lot about healing plants.
    Also they did not have mega-cities.

    But there could be Events (Python-Event-System) like "Smallpox" ...
     
  20. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Not really a feature, but something I would really like to have.

    Rebalancing Immigration

    Currently I feel that there are way too many Specialists immigrating.
    Specialists - as the name says - should be something special where you really feel happy if you get one.

    If you want to have Specialist, you should usually have to buy them or use Education System or Learning By Doing.

    I am thinking about the following rates:

    1. Normal Colonists -> 40%
    2. Indentured Servants -> 30%
    3. Hardy Pioneers, Experienced Scouts, Missionaries, Veterans -> 10 % in total
    4. Experienced Farmers, Experienced Fishers, Experienced Hunters, Experienced Ore Miners, Experienced Lumberjacks, Master Carpenters -> 15% in total
    5. All other Specialists -> 5% in total

    Feedback ? :)
     
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