[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

[raystuttgart]

Bug fixed.
(This really was tricky.)

 

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I fixed the bug with "Random Seed".
(It is uploaded to SVN. Please get current revision.)

Would be great if somebody could verify.

 

[Willi_Tell]

Hi Willi, old buddy.
Nice to see you around in our forum.

It's a pleasure, good ol' Ray

You've already solved the "random seed"-problem? Wow, that was pretty fast - good work, as always!

Spoiler :

Wollte Dir vorschlagen, diese Lösung auch dem TAC-Team im dt. Civforum mitzuteilen, aber das hast Du - wie ich sehe - bereits getan, braver Junge...

 

[colonialfan]

@colonialfan:
I will postpone "New Native Nations" for now.
I want to fix that bug first.

No problem Ray. I'll continue to gather biographical info on the Guarani, Telhuelche, and Shuar. I'll also the check the English texts for realease1.

PS - My apologies to Robert. I accidently complimented Ray for the English text in "no more variable hidden" option, whereas I should of given credit to Robert for the text. So here it is, great job Robert with the text, your English was perfect.

 

[agaro]

Hi guys,

I think we have discussed that already somewhere, but I cannot find the posts.

I would like to do the following changes:

Changes to Treasures and Criminals

1. Treasures cannot enter tiles with Goody Huts anymore.
2. Criminals cannot speak to Chief and cannot be trained by Natives anymore.
3. Criminals cannot be educated. (Schools)

Thus:

Criminals first have to get free (Learning By Doing-Feature), before they can become Specialists.
Treasures cannot be used to for collecting Goody Huts.

Feedback ?

A few comments about restrictions to Criminals

About 50,000 convicts were transported to North America pre-revolution - estimated as 25% of immigrants - mostly as indentured servants who were then sold to colonists. Plus there were various rogue treasure hunters and petty criminals who went of their own volition, and the black-sheep of aristocratic families who were banished there to keep them out of sight.

This was also before social welfare and provisions for bankrupts, so many people were criminals in order to survive, or their crimes would be considered modest by today's standards. People of different religious beliefs, or wanting better working conditions could also be subject to imprisonment.

Many people were criminals because of lack of opportunity rather than lack of character.

Then in terms of the game each petty criminal icon represents a cohort of 25-50 persons including women and children. After about 50-100 turns each petty criminal icon represents the grandchildren of the original criminal immigrants. The next generations should not automatically be considered criminals.

Based on this, any limitation in what a petty criminal icon can do, compared to what any other settler can do, isn't really valid - particularly many turns after immigration.

However, if you really want to have limitations you could probably justify them based on the fact that you will always have some criminals in each generation of all the settlers, and they might as well be represented by the petty criminal icon.

 

[KJ Jansson]

A few comments about restrictions to Criminals

About 50,000 convicts were transported to North America pre-revolution - estimated as 25% of immigrants - mostly as indentured servants who were then sold to colonists. Plus there were various rogue treasure hunters and petty criminals who went of their own volition, and the black-sheep of aristocratic families who were banished there to keep them out of sight.

This was also before social welfare and provisions for bankrupts, so many people were criminals in order to survive, or their crimes would be considered modest by today's standards. People of different religious beliefs, or wanting better working conditions could also be subject to imprisonment.

Many people were criminals because of lack of opportunity rather than lack of character.

Then in terms of the game each petty criminal icon represents a cohort of 25-50 persons including women and children. After about 50-100 turns each petty criminal icon represents the grandchildren of the original criminal immigrants. The next generations should not automatically be considered criminals.

Based on this, any limitation in what a petty criminal icon can do, compared to what any other settler can do, isn't really valid - particularly many turns after immigration.

However, if you really want to have limitations you could probably justify them based on the fact that you will always have some criminals in each generation of all the settlers, and they might as well be represented by the petty criminal icon.

I agree with the historical background described by agaro. Current restrictions for criminals in TAC/R&R are too strict.

I already proposed for education, and now I'd like to extend my proposal for criminals. If criminal doesn't escape during 20-30 years (about 50-100 turns depending on game speed), this criminal became a normal colonist with 100% garantie. 20-20 years is exactly corresponds to agaro's proposal

"The next generations should not automatically be considered criminals."

At the same time we could increase a chance that a part of criminals (about 10-maximum 20%) will escape the colonial village and became "Bandit" units who will attack his former village, steal some goods, create some disorder, etc., if this village has no military units to protect his citizens from these "Bandit" units.

 

[raystuttgart]

If criminal doesn't escape during 20-30 years (about 50-100 turns depending on game speed), this criminal became a normal colonist with 100% garantie. 20-20 years is exactly corresponds to agaro's proposal

I will propose a new balancing of LbD (including "Free" and "Escape") mechanisms, once we have done the merge with TAC 2.03.
Let us currently focus on creating our features and later on do a proper balancing.

At the same time we could increase a chance that a part of criminals (about 10-maximum 20%) will escape the colonial village and became "Bandit" units who will attack his former village, steal some goods, create some disorder, etc., if this village has no military units to protect his citizens from these "Bandit" units.

Something like this is already planned.
I would do that, once we have integrated Pirates (I will use their Civ or use it as blueprint to create a new one) and Slaves (they will flee, too).

So, if I understand both of you right, this should be forgotten ?

Spoiler :

Hi guys,

I think we have discussed that already somewhere, but I cannot find the posts.

I would like to do the following changes:

Changes to Treasures and Criminals

1. Treasures cannot enter tiles with Goody Huts anymore.
2. Criminals cannot speak to Chief and cannot be trained by Natives anymore.
3. Criminals cannot be educated. (Schools)

Thus:

Criminals first have to get free (Learning By Doing-Feature), before they can become Specialists.
Treasures cannot be used to for collecting Goody Huts.

Feedback ?

 

[KJ Jansson]

So, if I understand both of you right, this should be forgotten ?

Changes to Treasures and Criminals

1. Treasures cannot enter tiles with Goody Huts anymore.
2. Criminals cannot speak to Chief and cannot be trained by Natives anymore.
3. Criminals cannot be educated. (Schools)

Thus:
Criminals first have to get free (Learning By Doing-Feature), before they can become Specialists.
Treasures cannot be used to for collecting Goody Huts.

No, of course.

1. Treasures cannot enter tiles with Goody Huts anymore. Treasures cannot be used to for collecting Goody Huts.

Is is absolutely nice addition. Moreover, "Treasures cannot reveal map". It's very easy to implement.

2. Criminals cannot speak to Chief and cannot be trained by Natives anymore.
3. Criminals cannot be educated. (Schools)

I guess it would be better to leave this feature "as is" and to rebalance LbD mechanics, as you proposed. The main reason of our critical remarks concerning Criminals is related to the wrong balance. The Criminal can escape, but practically cannot be freed or educated.

 

[raystuttgart]

Is is absolutely nice addition. Moreover, "Treasures cannot reveal map". It's very easy to implement.

So ok, then we would have:

1. Treasures cannot enter plots with Goody Huts (very easy to implement).
2. Treasures cannot reveal Map (also easy to implement).

I guess it would be better to leave this feature "as is" and to rebalance LbD mechanics, as you proposed. The main reason of our critical remarks concerning Criminals is related to the wrong balance. The Criminal can escape, but practically cannot be freed or educated.

Ok, then let us leave the criminal as it is and rebalance LbD (later, after merge with TAC 2.03).
(And yes, there will eventualy also be an actual unit running away, when criminal flees.)

Everybody agree ?

 

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I fixed the bug with "Random Seed".
(It is uploaded to SVN. Please get current revision.)

Would be great if somebody could verify.

@team:

Did anybody verify that the bug is fixed ?

 

[KJ Jansson]

@team:

Did anybody verify that the bug is fixed ?

I can confirm that "GAMEOPTION_NEW_RANDOM_SEED" is working perfectly. Moreover, I never observed earlier bug, when I have a stable CTD after couple saves in the beginning.

Thus, now both these bugs are fixed. Great work, Ray!

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone,

@team:
Did anybody verify that the bug is fixed ?

Not yet... Sorry! I can try this afternoon (or evening)!

PS - My apologies to Robert. I accidentally complimented Ray for the English text in "no more variable hidden" option, whereas I should of given credit to Robert for the text. So here it is, great job Robert with the text, your English was perfect.

Actually I understood you were saying "hello" to Ray (since he posted the last message) and then you were talking to me... So you don't need to apologize! Thank you for checking the texts. I haven't wrote any new texts... But, as Ray said, you can check his texts !

Edit: Oh! I didn't see your reply KJ! So very well

 

[raystuttgart]

Thus, now both these bugs are fixed. Great work, Ray!

Great, that is what I wanted to hear.

 

[raystuttgart]

@team:

Currently we have some open topics again, where I would really like us to come to a decision.
So please give your feedback / opinion.

1) Rebuild of Breeding Horses
(It is easy to do, I really like that concept and would want to do it in Release 1.)

2) New Calculation for City Storage Capacity using Sum of all Goods stored
(It is easy to do, I really like that concept and would want to do it in Release 1.)

3) New Calculation for Cargo Space of Transport Units
(This is a tough one to do. However I like it and would like to implement in Release 2.)

4) Civil Defense
(It is relatively easy to implement once we have the graphics. However it is not really important to me. A "Nice-to-Have" only.)

5) Treasures cannot reveal Map or enter Plots with Goody-Huts anymore
(It is easy to do, I like that concept and would want to do it in Release 1.)

 

[Gomer_Pyle]

4)Civil Defense
(It is relatively easy to implement once we have the graphics. However it is not really important to me. A "Nice-to-Have" only.)

Why isnt this important? I simply do not understand why it is not! Why bother adding all these extra stuff if the AI can't even defend their own settlements? This is a fair question.

 

[raystuttgart]

Why isnt this important? I simply do not understand why it is not! Why bother adding all these extra stuff if the AI can't even defend their own settlements? This is a fair question.

I said the feature "Civil Defense" itself is not important to me.

I never said it is not important to have good AI.
(koma will rework AI for TAC 2.03 to handle defense better.)

I would do "Civil Defense", but I did not have the feeling that anybody was interested.
(If you want to have it, why didn't you say so ? )

 

[Androrc the Orc]

About traits: if we reinstate nation traits, we could make them explicit, like this:

 

[raystuttgart]

About traits: if we reinstate nation traits, we could make them explicit, like this:

Yes, why not.

 

[KJ Jansson]

How about "2-Plots City Radius"? Are you plan to include this feature in Release 1 or Release 2?

This feature is also very easy to implement, but the balance and development strategy for 1- and 2-plots radius cities are absolutely different.

 

[raystuttgart]

How about "2-Plots City Radius"? Are you plan to include this feature in Release 1 or Release 2?

It is currently not in our plans, but we could discuss this of course.
(I have opened a new thread, because I believe this might get a longer discussion.)