Religion system in civ7

[Krajzen]

Civ6 basically had the exact same religion system as civ5 G&K, just with way more active unit spam, which was not received well by the playerbase. And now Humankind has basically the same (though really vestigial) religion system, so some innovations would be nice.
The big issue of that kind of religious system is that it makes every global religion and every state function like Islam. Yes you heard me right, Islam not Christianity, which is funny, although Christianity shares the same following traits exceot the last two ones.

Every religion in civ6:
- begins from a great prophet
- is bent on a global universal spread
- has the conceot of missionaries
- has the conceot of holy war and inquisition
- is exclusive and largely hostile to other religions, views them as heathens to be converted
- is extremely relevant everywhere it exists, even in the 21st century
- is completely tied to the state, government rules the religious doctrines stuff.

This Abrahamic - religions - centrism doesn't allow us to simulate:
- religions without a personal founder (such as Hinduism, polytheisms)
- ethno - religions that invest into cultural integrity, not universal exoansion (such as Judaism)
- non proselytising religions (Confucianism, Taoism, Hinduism, Hellenism again etc; though they did soread it was more of a 'oassive' cultural civilizational stuff)
- largely pluralistic, tolerant religions that acceoted a huge internal diversity and didn't even have a notion of heresy (Hinduism, all sorts of polytheisms)
- religions tied to the global church organisation, acting autonomously from governments
- government having no state religion
- gov oromoting multiple religions at once (Mongols, China, India for example)
- secularism or state atheism, it is really bizarre how in civ6 every government is theocracy in 21st century

So, oersonally I'd love much more horizontal variety of this kind, instead of variety of "what kind of Islam)Christianity are we cosplaying as." Most importantly, it would be really nice if religious tolerance was a viable strategy

Also, the less actice micromanagement and more macro strategy in religion stuff - the better.
Also, I think the Faith resource has really gotten out of hand; it is very abstract and soent in a lot of vague ways disconnected from reality. The less Faith and its inflation the better.

 

[Leucarum]

The micromanagement in civ6 religion is my least favourite part of the game. However, there is a tough balance between making it so that on a religious playthrough you still have control over what is happening, and creating a game of endless whack a mole.

I'd favour getting rid of religious units as they are currently conceived and having them function more like traders, using them to apply pressure to convert foreign cities, while your religious buildings function to help defend your own religion from external pressure. Maybe even get rid of faith too.

Putting a few more steps in forming your religion could also be cool. Start with a pantheon, add a few more tenets, get enough and you form a fully-fledged organized religion. Give a bit more time to catch up so you have to definitely dedicate yourself if you want a religion.

 

[Zaarin]

- secularism or state atheism, it is really bizarre how in civ6 every government is theocracy in 21st century

I mean, there's a difference between having a state religion and a theocracy. Sweden, quite possibly the most secular state in the world, has a state church.

 

[Zaarin]

Bah, I was posting and got distracted. So where was I? Ah, right. Religion. I think Civ7 needs to look to CK3 for inspiration on religion because I think it does religion very well, particularly in capturing the variety one can find within a religion (though it gets...creative at times--like Insular Christianity allowing polygamy or straight up inventing varieties of Zoroastrianism...). In terms of starting a religion, I really think that needs to be more emergent and out of the player's direct control (though the player should be able to do things to encourage a religion to be founded or spread to their cities). Religions should also be able to be established or disestablished (probably with some penalties if the established religion doesn't have many followers in your empire).

 

[BuchiTaton]

Every religion in civ6:
- begins from a great prophet
- is bent on a global universal spread
- has the conceot of missionaries
- has the conceot of holy war and inquisition
- is exclusive and largely hostile to other religions, views them as heathens to be converted
- is extremely relevant everywhere it exists, even in the 21st century
- is completely tied to the state, government rules the religious doctrines stuff.

.....................

So, oersonally I'd love much more horizontal variety of this kind, instead of variety of "what kind of Islam)Christianity are we cosplaying as." Most importantly, it would be really nice if religious tolerance was a viable strategy

Well if religion mechanics are supposed to still be their own type of victory it make sense to be christian/muslim centric because this are the most successful to spread an actually closer to do what I think victory types are supposed to represent a way to control the world.

 

[Sirsquier]

This is going to be long.

Pantheons:

Alright so pantheons don't really represent what they were irl. Here's how pantheons should work:

Each civ may have 1 pantheon.
This must be created by the player/leader.
Pantheons may be created when a player gains a certain amount of faith.
When first founded a player may choose three gods.
When they do this they may choose; the main thing each god is patron of, whether they are a god/goddess, and what their name is. The name of the pantheon will be based off the civ. (American Mythology)
Each god will be given a portrait, based off these three things: Civ, What they Are Patron of, and sex. (This means for each civ there will be 7-15 god portraits with male and female versions. (total of 14-30 assets)) The art team will have fun.
Players may spend faith to give their gods/goddess new things to be patron of (example Freyja was goddess of love/beauty, but also battle.) or to add new gods to their pantheon.
Each god/goddess may be patron to a city (Athena/Athens Ares/Sparta) this is chosen by building a temple to said god in the city.
A god/goddess' temple gives boosts based off percentage of the city following the pantheon.

Religions:

Religions and Pantheons are now on the same level. The difference is that religions fall into religious families. These include, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, ect.)
A religious family can start in a number of ways. These include, State Created, Naturally Appearing, or Great Prophets.
Each family starts off with one base religion. (Example: Catholics for Christianity)
Religious families may have schisms. These may be created by the player (one per civ, per era, per Religious family) or naturally (through prophets)
To create a religion a player must have a certain amount of faith. Once founded they may choose starting tenants (these give major buffs/negatives and will drastically affect gameplay) and doctrines (these are the religions options on issues and generate as more techs/civics are discovered) They may also choose a name and a symbol.
If an AI schisms the schisms name with either be chosen from a group of real life schisms (Example: Christianity- Insular, Coptic, Orthodoxic) or based off the civ's name. (Example: America- Amerism)


State Religion:

When founded a pantheon will automatically become your state religion. State religions have +10 pressure in you cities.
You may change your state religion when: You change government, You Enter a New Era, You Create a New Religious Family, Or When you Schism
If you are a totalitarian government or have totalitarian policies you must either choose a state religion or choose to be Atheistic (offering +15% science after the industrial era) or Agnostic (offering +5% culture and +10% science after industrial era)
Governments may choose not to have a state religion if not prohibited by what is said above.
They may also choose to be Atheistic/Agnostic
You may choose how you treat those not following you state religion (or non-religion), with tolerancy. Which may be Accepted, tolerated, shunned, criminal, or even gynocidal*)
Of course choosing different tolerance levels has different pros/cons

*I bet you can guess what the cons of being gynocidal are. I mean you might have half the world declare war on you..... wait I see where this is going

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

This is going to be long.

Pantheons:

Alright so pantheons don't really represent what they were irl. Here's how pantheons should work:

When they do this they may choose; the main thing each god is patron of, whether they are a god/goddess, and what their name is. The name of the pantheon will be based off the civ. (American Mythology)
Each god will be given a portrait, based off these three things: Civ, What they Are Patron of, and sex. (This means for each civ there will be 7-15 god portraits with male and female versions. (total of 14-30 assets)) The art team will have fun.

Don't have it choose sex, just let them pick the picture. You want to let the player customize so that any templated text matches the god's identity right? That's exactly the situation if there ever was one for making it just "Choose the pronouns."

The described mechanics do kind of look like "adding beliefs". We have a handle on making that work, I mean. You say that the faith stockpile should go into that, and these extensions of the gods' domains is always available (while it's a pantheon, anyway). Being a tutelary deity is cool too, it creates intersection with city improvements by being an accomplishment from the Temple instead of decisions fired by the faith stockpile.

Religions:

Religions and Pantheons are now on the same level. The difference is that religions fall into religious families. These include, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, ect.)

The same level meaning...? That a pantheon counts as a religion, and its mechanics become the ones you list here instead of the previous ones?

I like the idea of religious emergence being a few possibilities. A meaning for a prophet's appearance is good too. For now I just point out... what is the stage where the era of religions begins? You said a player can just make one, is the only necessity just getting to the stockpile needed to pay? In that case, players who have grown their pantheon are putting off that event. Kind of cool, you have complex pantheons from some cultures and waning pantheons replaced with deism from others.

I have other thoughts but I'm troubled by unsureness about them right now.

Speaking as a player and someone who doesn't know anything about the interaction of religion and history, I'm not super excited to have religion in my cities be something that holds it back in dozens of ways. If the tenets cover boons and drawbacks, and I can sort of imagine that, what are "issues" ? Are the doctrines enabling or disabling? Like, compared to a religion not being there. Or another religion coming over and minimizing your first one.

gynocidal

Oh boy, another horrifying Human hand-me-down I didn't need to know about today.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Each god will be given a portrait, based off these three things: Civ, What they Are Patron of, and sex. (This means for each civ there will be 7-15 god portraits with male and female versions. (total of 14-30 assets)) The art team will have fun.

If CIV7 have 50 civs that mean >700 portraits, this is way too much, also players would need quick recognition of the deities/cults of each city and civs.

Keep it easy, first Deity or Cult are easier to use that God/Goddess. So you have the War Deity or the Cult of Fertility. They dont really need a specific cultural name, even on real history many cultures had syncretic deities that were mixed just because they recognized common aspects shared by the original ones.

 

[Sirsquier]

Oh boy, another horrifying Human hand-me-down I didn't need to know about today.

Oh god I did not mean to spell it that way. I meant Genocidal.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ideally I see the idea behind founding and building a religion almost the same as building up your culture in game. That can be done through a possible religious branch of a civics tree/civics web.

In fact many civilizations religions are basically intertwined in their culture. That is why I think it would be interesting if at least religious conversion was one criteria of the culture victory, with the other half being the current tourism mechanic.

By conversion I mean the majority of your cities would have to at least follow your religion in order to achieve a culture victory.

 

[Sirsquier]

The same level meaning...? That a pantheon counts as a religion, and its mechanics become the ones you list here instead of the previous ones?

I like the idea of religious emergence being a few possibilities. A meaning for a prophet's appearance is good too. For now I just point out... what is the stage where the era of religions begins? You said a player can just make one, is the only necessity just getting to the stockpile needed to pay? In that case, players who have grown their pantheon are putting off that event. Kind of cool, you have complex pantheons from some cultures and waning pantheons replaced with deism from others.

Speaking as a player and someone who doesn't know anything about the interaction of religion and history, I'm not super excited to have religion in my cities be something that holds it back in dozens of ways. If the tenets cover boons and drawbacks, and I can sort of imagine that, what are "issues" ? Are the doctrines enabling or disabling? Like, compared to a religion not being there. Or another religion coming over and minimizing your first one.

Alright first, No, pantheons would be an alternative to religions. I see religions as something that spreads from culture to culture with a pantheon being culture specific. What I meant is. Unlike civ 5/6 were you have your religion stack on your pantheon. Now they'd be separate.

Second. Not having religion/pantheon in cities means that the cities are majority Atheistic or Agnostic. (Both each granting differing bonus) Doctrines would just alter gameplay a bit, mostly happiness. (example: a city following mostly a religion that supports pacifism would have more unhappiness at war and less during peace.)

 

[Sirsquier]

If CIV7 have 50 civs that mean >700 portraits, this is way too much, also players would need quick recognition of the deities/cults of each city and civs.

Keep it easy, first Deity or Cult are easier to use that God/Goddess. So you have the War Deity or the Cult of Fertility. They dont really need a specific cultural name, even on real history many cultures had syncretic deities that were mixed just because they recognized common aspects shared by the original ones.

I was thinking more that pantheons would become more as an alternative to religions. (each pantheon having a symbol based off the civs that denotes which one is in a city)
Example: I choose, God of War, Goddess of Hunt, and Goddess of Storms. My cities now receive +1 production from camps, storms no longer damage districts, and my units have +5 CS. However this is only in cities where the pantheon is dominant.

 

[Zaarin]

Ideally I see the idea behind founding and building a religion almost the same as building up your culture in game. That can be done through a possible religious branch of a civics tree/civics web.

In fact many civilizations religions are basically intertwined in their culture. That is why I think it would be interesting if at least religious conversion was one criteria of the culture victory, with the other half being the current tourism mechanic.

By conversion I mean the majority of your cities would have to at least follow your religion in order to achieve a culture victory.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing culture work more or less the way religion does now and seeing some radical changes to religion.

 

[Krajzen]

Well if religion mechanics are supposed to still be their own type of victory it make sense to be christian/muslim centric because this are the most successful to spread an actually closer to do what I think victory types are supposed to represent a way to control the world.

I didn't even mention the religious victory in the original message because I disrespect this concept so much I forgot about its existence

Well I'll reverse your logic: it's exactly because religious victory is turning every religion into Islam and Christianity that it should not be in the game to begin with! Not every exoression of human soirituality has the conceot of 'converting the heathen world', in fact most of then didn't (hell Hinduism didn't even have the notion of 'religion' or 'not us' for a long time), therefore we shouldn't turn this West - centric (well, Abrahamic - centric) view into some kind of cultural universal.

Religious victory has other problems besides that major flaw, such as 'there is no way to design it to not be tedious and boring, like any total force domination victory', or the fact it makes no damn sense (religions don't belong to countries), or the fact that its sheer existence makes devs unable to create the obvious modern day ideology of secularism (not to mention state atheism) because that would disable it.

So we end up in a situation when I cannot olay as a secular tolerant republic or communist state, which were a very major thing over last two centuries of history, just to enable ahistorical mechanic which turns all religions into Eurocentric one, for the sake of terrible gameplay. Excellent combination of core features of civ6 design philosophy.

 

[dagriggstar]

I think something sort of like old world, where the religion has an opinion of your civilization and that opinion will affect your civilization, is the way to go. I would also like to see religion spread primarily be passive, as missionary spam has never been fun.

So for example, the leaders of a religion may request access to dyes for use in their various festivals. If you complete the quest, their opinion of your empire rises, followers of that religion will have a higher loyalty to your empire and cities with a majority of that religion gain +1 amenity. Conversely the opposite may be true if you do things that go against a religion.