Religions

[Aussie_Lurker]

I think that compromise is on the right track Sir Schwick. If you look at some earlier posts of mine (in either this or the 'Religious Thoughts' thread) you will see that there has been the suggestion that, whether or not your have Real World or Generic Religions, you can have a method to make an initially Generic religion develop its own unique traits. This could be done via techs, civics settings or both (I prefer the latter option myself).
For instance, if the Germans found Islam, and their civics settings mark them as very authoritatian and very theistic, then its likely that Islam in this game will have the Fundamentalist Trait (resistance to outside conversion, increased conversion of citizens within your nation, low tech rate and poor relations with nations of differing religions). If they were Militaristic and Theistic, then it would have the Militant trait (greater chance of converting citizens of captured cities, lower war weariness from war with differing religion, poor relations with 'non-believers', greater chance of religious schisms and sectarianism within your boundaries).
Of course, no religion would be set in stone, and if the founder changed their civics settings for long enough (or if head of the faith passed to a different civ) then these traits may be lost and new ones gained.
Another interesting possibility would be that, if the civics settings that lead to the traits of a religion are wildly different from the civics settings of a nation which adopts the faith-then there should be an increased chance of a new Sect of that religion appearing within that nation. For instance, lets say the English have a low Theism and Authoritarianism levels, but adopt Germanic Islam, after a while, there may be an increased risk of a Reformist Islamic sect appearing within one of the English cities-this could lead to the formation of a breakaway English religion, with its basis in Islam.
Hope all that makes sense.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Greek Stud]

why do people always say it is a touchy subject? How many of you got pissed about Age of Mythology and Pagan groups killing each other with Coptic, Hellenic or Norse priests. You guys need to relax. When they added the Byzantines and Ottomans together I did get all pissed and say but Turks have the same cities as Byzantines and they kill each other. Its not a big deal, and if it is to some of you, get over it, its just a game.

 

[Chinese American]

what's the point of all this? too much fuss over a little flavor. since religion will not play a big part in victory conditions, there's no point in them making them a focal point in gameplay. you're not supposed to change religions like you're changing pants. Monday Buddha, Tuesday Jesus, Wednesday Muhammad.

 

[dh_epic]

I don't see a problem with renaming religions. In fact, I think this is a halfway decent idea. Players should be able to rename religions if they discover them.

Although as a side note, it sounds to me like religion will be a huge tech tree race. Who can make it to the key technology that unlocks the religion first? That's not a bad thing, though. It's kind of like an early mishmash of the space race.

 

[CurtSibling]

The number of 7 world religions tells me somehow that there's no place for this 'little' religion. (Also historically and from the number of believers it is just a too small group, sorry)

mfG mitsho

Are you going by current religious numbers or by historical following? This is a history game, remember.

There was a time when Mitharism was a vast religion, being the leading faith of the Roman Empire...

By that count, should Mitharism be one of the seven?

.

 

[mitsho]

As you may have read I put Mithraism in the list of possible religions in my second post in this thread, so yes, in my opinion, it would be a deserving faith, Probably more deserving than Judaism, but this is very subjective (and as others have put it touchy, so I'm not gonna make a list!).

I did neither go with current or with historical following numbers, I myself went with my subjective perception of historical signifiance, and in there, this religion isn't in the top7, but just shortly out.

I didn't try to be objective, because I can't.

mitsho

 

[CurtSibling]

Historically, some religions were based on others...Christianity did take many ideas from ancient hebrew lore.

But this is a mere PC game, not a massive history document - The final say is with the developers, I deem.

 

[mitsho]

Historically, some religions were based on others...Christianity did take many ideas from ancient hebrew lore.

and? What has this to do with historical significance? Many sons became much more important than their fathers once were...

But you're right, it's the decision of the developers. And they know how they've implemented religion, so they probably know too which religions suits their system best.

mfG mitsho

 

[dh_epic]

I don't think theyre hardwiring the religions to the civilizations, but I do think they'll let the civs they've chose inform which religions make it in.

 

[mitsho]

@dh_epic I'm sorry, I know English is not my mother tongue, but I simply do not get your sentence. So could you explain it to me again?

mitsho

 

[oldStatesman]

I don't think theyre hardwiring the religions to the civilizations, but I do think they'll let the civs they've chose inform which religions make it in.

But from the discussions/analysis of the screen shots it seems that the deduction is that religions are tied to certain techs, so civs have nothing to do with the choice.

 

[dh_epic]

Sorry, I can be really unclear, especially when trying to be concise.

I think that the list of 19 civs will help make their decision about the 7 religions that make it in. HOWEVER, I don't think they're hardwiring them either. It's just that whatever they favor civ-wise will probably play into what they favor religion-wise.

 

[Camber]

From the look of things, New World religions (native to N. and S. America) are going to be completely forgotten in the game. How balanced is that? It would also be sad if the religion race ended in the middle ages, and modern religions were not represented. I think it is very important to keep it relevant throughout the ages, so that Civ4 doesn't become another game that is most engaging in the first half and predictable in the second half. Just because Western Civilization has become less religious doesn't mean that our "what-if" world shouldn't have the possibility of religion remaining a major force in the late game.

I'm wondering what gameplay is going to be like if your empire founds 2 or 3 world religions. If you have already founded one religion, would there be an incentive to let someone else found the other ones, so that your civ would be able to preserve some of its religious homogeneity (it sounds like homogeneity will help happiness, since only cities whose religion matches the state religion will get the benefit).

Or at least give us a real choice of which religion we discover - if each is the same, what matter would it be if we choose Christianity or Judaism or Shintuism or Cult of the Comet-ism when we research code of Laws?

I really like oldStatesman's idea about getting to choose from a menu of "polytheistic" religions when you research polytheism, etc. Maybe the first to research it should get first pick, second to research it would get second pick, and then there would be no more polytheisms to choose from? Two or 3 religions for each religious tech should not be hard to handle.

I also wonder if being the founder of a world religion will affect the appearance probability of the Prophet great leaders. It sounds like that might also be an incentive to race to the religious techs, depending on what the effects are of Prophets in the game.

And please, oh please, do not make the number of religions hard-coded (I know there is little chance of this, since the prerelease info has said that almost nothing will be hard-coded). I look forward to adding religions to the game. Hail the Holy Banana Eaters.

 

[Kosez]

But if every civ could choose their own religion, there would be no civs with the same religion, and thus no diplomatic bonuses or locked alliances and stuff, and I think tahat's way they invented religion in the first place (in CivIV off course).

 

[narmox]

By not hardcoding the number of religions, I think he meant especially for modding, not for the normal game. But then they said everything would be moddable wiht xml and python. Let's hope that means everything for real

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

If you look at my earlier post on this subject, though, I pointed to the fact that-even if you have a dozen religions-you can still make it so that civs share the same religion by only allowing the FIRST civ in a culture group-to discover the prerequisite tech-to actually found a religion based on that tech.
So, if Rome is the first Mediterranean civ to discover Polytheism, then it gets to found a Polytheistic religion-be it Greco-Roman (Hellenistic), Ossirian, Hinduism or Celtic. Lets say that they pick Celtic, this means that the Spanish, the Ottomans, the Byzantines and Greeks must either adopt Celtic Polytheism, adopt the Polytheistic faith of another culture group (Middle Eastern, West European, East European) or try and be the first to discover Meditation, Code of Laws, Monotheism or Theology. Can you see where I am coming from?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

A thought that occured to me; there is a way to reward the first civ to found a certain religion without giving any "value" or such to the religion in itself.

How about making the capital, or some large city within that civ, to become a Holy Site for that religion, with pilgrimages and whatnot. A city being a holy site could give a population and trade boost to that city.

 

[antonio]

I like the idea of choosing your own religion because people who want that extra hook can have it and people who dont want to have it can make it less realistic.I hope though even if another civ has picked that religion yuo can still pick it because you could choose yuor relgion for diplomatic ends eg. ifyuo had a large powerful neighbour you could pick the same relgion as them so you would be able to make lliances with them and hopefuly prevent a war which yuo can not win.i also hope that you will be able to change your religon when yuo want like you could with goverments in civ 3.

 

[Che Guava]

ifyuo had a large powerful neighbour you could pick the same relgion as them so you would be able to make lliances with them and hopefuly prevent a war which yuo can not win.i also hope that you will be able to change your religon when yuo want like you could with goverments in civ 3.....

hmmmm, that's all well and good, but can you really choose the religion of your entire nation? I mean, you can definitely have a state religion, but just because you decide it's time to move to Christianity doesn't mean all those hardcore polytheists in your cities will automatically switch faiths. I think you should have the choice of founding, supporting, and to some degree, enforcing a religion, but I think the ultimate decision of who is of what faith should be out of your hands.

 

[gskyes]

I definately think that choosing a state religion should not be as simple as choosing a state government type. Of course the ruling party (you) of a state can pick how to run your empire (government and civics), but it should cost time and resources to enforce a state religion - ESPECIALLY if you are changing from one religion to another, or trying to convert conquered citizens to your religion. Likewise, a nation should enjoy some economic and happiness bonuses if it allows religious freedom for it's people. Of course, both methods should have pros and cons for balanced gameplay.