So, I guess I'm the only one who prefers RT over IP any day, huh?
I always have in the past, but I keep getting frustrated by enemies that use IP.
Religious belief - faster or farther?
- Thread starter Rpger29
- Start date
I always have in the past, but I keep getting frustrated by enemies that use IP.
IP increases the area that religion is spread into by 68%, making it better at spreading your religion outwards (as you will probably enhance your religion before you get printing press). RT is better if you just want to defend a compact empire from foreign religions, because unless your cities are spread out IP does you no good on defense.
Awkward city placement (a lot of cities 11-13 distance apart, or maybe none) can, of course, change the equation.
Awkward city placement (a lot of cities 11-13 distance apart, or maybe none) can, of course, change the equation.
The Pilgrim
Deity
Are you playing as religious civ/have faith generating terrain based pantheon? In other words, can you found religion early enough to matter?
When actually given the choice, I always study the map carefully (if I haven't already.)
There are several maps I've seen that because of where the water is that IP is better. But I'm currently playing on one now where RT is better. (There are no cities within the range that IP adds on this map; I started in a corner and even the closest city state to me is closer to another major AI.
There are several maps I've seen that because of where the water is that IP is better. But I'm currently playing on one now where RT is better. (There are no cities within the range that IP adds on this map; I started in a corner and even the closest city state to me is closer to another major AI.
All of the replies here and my most recent game have really clarified this for me. What Scip says about increased area of spread seems to be how things play out on the map types I described in my original post.
My most recent game as a religiously aggressive Hiawatha has decided it for me. If you are able to get a religion going early on a mostly land map, and cities aren't more than 15 tiles apart, IP seems to just stomp all over enemy religions. My closest neighbor's capital is 12 tiles from my nearest city. All seven of his cities are under the sway of my religion (with TP), as well as every city state within 15 tiles.
For offense on a small land map, IP seems to be the clear favorite. It doesn't even have to wait until printing press to be workable, unlike RT.
Edit: I should further add - I haven't had to convert any AI cities with missionaries. I have converted three city states and two of my cities with missionaries. That early spread of religion coupled with IP has been awesome. Tithe is now bringing in a crapton of gold, and religious community has all my cities producing like crazy.
My most recent game as a religiously aggressive Hiawatha has decided it for me. If you are able to get a religion going early on a mostly land map, and cities aren't more than 15 tiles apart, IP seems to just stomp all over enemy religions. My closest neighbor's capital is 12 tiles from my nearest city. All seven of his cities are under the sway of my religion (with TP), as well as every city state within 15 tiles.
For offense on a small land map, IP seems to be the clear favorite. It doesn't even have to wait until printing press to be workable, unlike RT.
Edit: I should further add - I haven't had to convert any AI cities with missionaries. I have converted three city states and two of my cities with missionaries. That early spread of religion coupled with IP has been awesome. Tithe is now bringing in a crapton of gold, and religious community has all my cities producing like crazy.
An Inquisitor in or next to your capital trumps either policy for protection. (The passive use of an inquisitor is that it prevents the AI from sending a Great Prophet or missionary in)
As to IP vs RT:
Count the number of cities within 11 to 13 hexes of your capital. If you get IP and then spread your religion to all of them, you will get 6 points of infuence in which this is the majority per city. (You'd get nothing from such cities under RT)
Then count the number of cities within 10 hexes of your capital. If you get RT and then spread your religion to all of them, you will get 8 points initially and 10 after printing press.
It then becomes a math problem.
But an additional consideration is that RT will spread itself quickly nearby even if you don't build any missionaries. IP is very slow unless you jump-start it will a missionary or two, but after a while will also massively spread itself.
But if this is for a Cultural OCC; you'd be better off with an enhancer that would increase the number of Great Prophets you can get. (Build Holy sites and finish Piety)
That is exactly the kind of insight I was looking for. It might actually be easier to just focus on inquisitors and pick the best policies for a OCC itself, instead of worrying about spreading my religion.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
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I prefer RT by a country mile, but then I play mostly liberty domination.
The Pilgrim
Deity
Actually, for OCC what you need is a lot of cash, thus Tithe makes your life ten times easier if you manage to spread. Of course, if you're last to found a religion and religious monsters are nearby, good luck with that plan. But in this case neither IP nor RT will serve any good.
Monthar
Deity
Tithe is a Founder belief while IP and RT are enhancers, so you can have tithe with either one. However, for OCC, taking the reduced cost of missionaries and inquisitors might be better, so you can spam them to spread all over.
One other thing to consider with an OCC game. Since this is the only game mode in which capitals can be razed, you can go wipe out every other holy city simply by capturing those cities, which instantly razes them, even if they are capitals. Since holy cities generate more pressure than regular cities, coupling the destruction of those cities with missionary spam everywhere you could end up as the only surviving religion. Since not every civ can found a religion, you can do this without triggering a domination victory if you're going for one of the other victories.
One other thing to consider with an OCC game. Since this is the only game mode in which capitals can be razed, you can go wipe out every other holy city simply by capturing those cities, which instantly razes them, even if they are capitals. Since holy cities generate more pressure than regular cities, coupling the destruction of those cities with missionary spam everywhere you could end up as the only surviving religion. Since not every civ can found a religion, you can do this without triggering a domination victory if you're going for one of the other victories.
The Pilgrim
Deity
I know. I was responding to what Rpger29 said about not focusing on spreading. The idea of being the only surviving religion is interesting. Personally I'm too lazy usually and prefer the passive spread rather than missionaries/prophets spam, but I'm sure some people will see it as challenging and appealing enough. The only problem is, at certain point (difficulty and stage of the game) dominating with OCC may become very tough. Slower speed will help a lot. And if you go for early rush (CB/Xbows), it's kinda silly to leave a couple of remaining capitals alive to avoid domination victory.
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
So, I guess I'm the only one who prefers RT over IP any day, huh?
Nope, but if the three of us belong to minority I'm still surprised.
I can think of a scenario where IP would be preferable but like religious tolerance it rarely occurs. Capital being far away from other cities while a large number of benefiting IP but not from RT and also liberty or honor opening. With tradition the cities tend to grow too fast to naturally adopt one's own religion and halting growth for spreading religion is generally not a sound plan.
The Pilgrim
Deity
Like this very contributing post of yours?
It would be really helpful, if people who have a quite extensive knowledge of the game actually shared it with others instead of just telling these others how horrible they are. Thread after thread after thread. But, that's obviously too much to ask, since bloated egos and sharing don't mix.
That's my experience as well. AI's cities are growing fast too, so RT is the best way to ensure the spreading. Not faster, not farther, just spreading. On lower difficulties where AI doesn't expand and there are large areas of unsettled land IP might make more sense, I guess. Or archipelago when you barely grow anyways. Like you said, marginal scenarios. In more common cases I think faster is farther. But that's mostly intuitive conclusion. I won't crunch any numbers.
problem is that on lower lvl were ai settles very few and far from u away IP will just not do the trick - 1 or 2 cities pressuring a far away city will "never" convert it - meaning no chain spread starting- u just have to use missionaries/prophets to spread into them.
So a 3 times spread missionary or maybe better prophet (no experience with) d be way better in these scenarios as IP.
IP seems bad in every scenario
The Pilgrim
Deity
Well, if AI doesn't expand towards you, you can always expand towards AI, and yeah, you'll have to spread to your own cities first so we're back to square one with missionaries and prophets. One of my biggest issues with them, to be honest, is the fact they can't share a tile with friendly units. Trying to spread to CS is often beyond frustrating since stupid CS units occupy every single tile in the vicinity. And that doesn't get much better with major civs. I tried to use them at first but gave up almost entirely at some point. Passive pressure ftw. Not to mention that spending faith on missionaries seems like a waste when passive pressure can do the job and faith can be spent on GP.
well u have to do some manual spreading early on on every difficulty, on lower ones cause cities will usually be further apart and on higher ones to be able to compete with ai spreading which is usually very agrresive.
the investion of 200 faith is kinda allways worth it considering that its so slim to around +100 u ll have in endgame.
Its just no fun seeing how ai religions take over slowly just cause pressure is a bit too slim cause not enough cities have religion early.
This is btw totaly different in multiplayer where city sizes are way smaller - with some size 1-3 cities close to cap sometime no missionary at all is needed to start a huge chain fast.
The Pilgrim
Deity
Well, yeah. 200 faith missionaries I can live with that, mainly because I want to spread religion to my own cities asap. Even 300 faith, I won't delay Rationalism on purpose to have cheaper missionaries/pagodas/etc and if number of followers can't catch up with pop due to Tradition, I don't have much choice. But anything more than couple of them at the beginning feels like a waste.
It depends on the map. On water maps, my favorite is... Holy Order. It's an underrated religion spreading enhancer that goes great with Mosque of Djienne. I find that a lot of people ignore it because they're hooked on buying religious buildings (Pagodas and Cathedrals), so they don't want to spend faith spreading religion. If you choose beliefs that don't require a faith investment, Holy Order can be really solid.
