Religious conversion - Cultural predestination

[SonicX]

Two suggestions here :

Religious conversion over time

One of the things that I find most disturbing in the realism aspect of this game is the fact that 9 times out of 10 games you're playing in a buddhist or hinduistic world because those religions were founded and spread first.

I'm not advocating for specific religious attributes here because that's been done so many times on this board, but I would like to see a change that would make it more common for newer religions (christianity, islam) to become influential in the medieval and post-medieval eras.

The basic things I'd like to see :
- Early game religions : Hinduism, Buddhism, Animism (?)
- End game religions : Christianity, Islam, Agnosticism/Atheism (?)
- Whole game religion : Judaism
I just replaced Taoism and Confucianism because Civ 4 doesn't always need to end up being dominated by east Asian religions. The 2 replacements are just ideas, not musts.

Now, the idea is that the early game needs to be dominated by the 3 early game religions while in the medieval era the end game religions should become more dominant ... basically to even out the value of each religion.

Basic adjustments I'd proprose :
- Increase spreading rate of end religions after 1000 AD (or after a certain technological barrier close to that age)
- Make early game religions more susceptible for conversion to an end game religion.
- Give the owner of the holy city of any religion the ability to gradually whipe out the older religions (in let's say 20 turns time), which would impact in slight unhappiness and decreased relations (if forced conversion is abroad) and would ofcourse make the influence of the ancient religions smaller
- Conversion from an old to new age religion does NOT happen faster in cities owned by the holy city owner (ex. India won't become christian anytime soon), and a bit slower in areas neighboring the holy city (ex. Nepal, Sri Lanka are influenced by India's religion, Mongolia by China etc)
- Judaism is founded relatively late so it will stay smaller, but won't be taken over by the end game religions to give it an equal chance.

Main goals :
- To have a more religiously diverse and realistic world throughout the game
- To have 7 religions of equal value
- To have a strategic choice which religion tactic to use
- To make religions special, without risking bias and adding controversial properties to each religion.

Fairly simple idea, no ?

Cultural predestination

Predestination is fairly simple. Certain nations will be more likely to prefer hinduism over buddhism, christianity of islam.
This would mean 2 extra attributes for every civ, with an example

America
Favored religion 1 : Christianity - The tech required to found christianity will cost 50 % of the original cost, so America will be more likely to found this religion, conversion to christianity by will have a 25 % higher succes rate in American cities, conversion from christianity to some other religion will have 25 % less succes rate.
Favored religion 2 : Judaism - Judaism will spread 25 % faster in America
Disliked religion : Islam - Islam will spread 25 % slower in America, the tech required to found islam (divine right) will be 50 % more expensive (unless islam is already founded)

You get the idea.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Hmmm, an interesting idea. A potential issue, I think, might be that the AI would always end up with preferred religion. So, just to run with your example, whenever I would play a game with America on the map I would know that it would adopt Christianity. Of course, your issue is equally valid...as it stands, I pretty much know that everyone will be playing with one of the first few religions. No good solution???

 

[Crighton]

My solution is to hijack the first religion which comes my way and it isn't always hindu or buddist, often times its judaism. i go out of my way to avoid founding religions and swipe the holy city. every so often i'll accidently found a religion (like Tao-ism), if that happens i spread it to all my cities and start converting all other civs so i get 1gpt/city for MY shrine, MY SHRINE, not anybody else's . . . . . all for Sylas . . . ..

I do think there should be religious centered units, Cristian Crusaders, Buddist medics, Shaolin Hindu Monks, ok beyond the Crusader you get my point.

I'd also like to see more religions get included over a wider spacing of techs, wow, give it like 10 or 15 religions and let that "Heathen Religion" war crank up.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Doesn't the lost units mod add religious units; aman spy, siddha monk, and so on???

Personally, I'd love to see Daoist Taiji masters... Whenever they're attacked, the attacking unit gets circled around them, taking damage and ending up facing the opposite direction.

 

[Panther_GR]

The basic things I'd like to see :
- Early game religions : Hinduism, Buddhism, Animism (?)
- End game religions : Christianity, Islam, Agnosticism/Atheism (?)
- Whole game religion : Judaism
I just replaced Taoism and Confucianism because Civ 4 doesn't always need to end up being dominated by east Asian religions. The 2 replacements are just ideas, not musts.

I agree with this idea. I have the same problem playing with a world fill with "old" religions. And yes since we have "modern" civs like fascism we should have Atheism or something similar in the late game.

Cultural predestination

Predestination is fairly simple. Certain nations will be more likely to prefer hinduism over buddhism, christianity of islam.
This would mean 2 extra attributes for every civ, with an example

America
Favored religion 1 : Christianity - The tech required to found christianity will cost 50 % of the original cost, so America will be more likely to found this religion, conversion to christianity by will have a 25 % higher succes rate in American cities, conversion from christianity to some other religion will have 25 % less succes rate.
Favored religion 2 : Judaism - Judaism will spread 25 % faster in America
Disliked religion : Islam - Islam will spread 25 % slower in America, the tech required to found islam (divine right) will be 50 % more expensive (unless islam is already founded)

This also is right. Religion element in CIV game is something new and if you want my oppinion they never should add it. But since the designers decide to add religion they should take under consideration the predestination of nations.

I mean it is kinda silly a Christian Arab leader (Saladin) to demand from me to convert from Islam to Christianity or to trade pork with him

Even more hillarius I found a german leader with this nazi-like helmet on to ask me to convert to Judaism...

I think that a future patch should include this fix.

 

[Xineoph]

Judaism should be an early religion, but as it is not a pagan religion, is it less suspectible to other Monotheistic religions. IE. Islam, Christianity.

Paganism is more suspectible and so forth.

 

[atreas]

Why not allow some kind of action like "out of law religion" that would:

1. Prohibit a specific religion spread in the country.
2. Remove the religion from the cities where it has been established.
3. Create diplomatic problems with all civs that have this religion.

It seems to me a quite balanced action, that creates the possibility of reducing an opponents money income but would also create the realistic probability of a religious war. It would also enable the easier spreading of new religions.

 

[Perfection]

Why don't we make it so religions just spread quicker when they are first founded? Doubling conversion chances and stuff during the first 20 or so turns?

Be sorta realistic too.

 

[Yuri2356]

I mean it is kinda silly a Christian Arab leader (Saladin) to demand from me to convert from Islam to Christianity or to trade pork with him

And what if the Arabic people had sided with Christianity, instead of Islam? Wouldn't they be out trying to convert the heathens to that?

Even more hillarius I found a german leader with this nazi-like helmet on to ask me to convert to Judaism...

Nazi-like Helmet?

NAZI-LIKE HELMET!?

If you mean Bismark's Pointy Conquering Hat of Doom (tm) then I'm obligated to call you an idiot. In case you dind't know, these sharp, pointy, helms were employed by Germans back in the 1800s, and carried on into the first world war. Pointy Conquering Hats of Doom (tm) were a symbol of german power in an era which predated Hitler's philosiphy, and to associate one with the other is folly.

I think that a future patch should include this fix.

And I think that this is moronic, as it removes the whole freedom of desciding your own religious fate.

 

[Roibeárd]

There is a mod which adds the Inquisitor unit, which can remove a religion from a city. I haven't tried it but here is the thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142337

Proposing predestination or any concepts of making one religion different than another is a non-starter. In the manual there is an explanation of how for the sake of respecting all faiths, religions are purposely made "equal".

The idea of "alternate history" is another key aspect of the game. Why not have Arabia found Judaism or France found Taoism? It's same nuttiness that has Moscow in the middle of a tropical Jungle and Bombay in the tundra. I think it's all great fun!

 

[SonicX]

Well, the first idea of "religious conversion" is making all religions equal. Right now, the early religions are way more important that the later religions, though not intended. I just like to see that straightened out.

 

[Mewtarthio]

I think that each city should have a set number of "religion slots." Whenever a religion is spread to a city, a single slot is filled. If that same religion attempts to spread to the city again (say by a new missionary, or through that inscrutable trade route algorithm--note that the "attempt" is only considered for these purposes if the RNG check passes), another slot is used up, but nothing else happens (ie the temples have the same effect, the religion happiness modifier remains untouched; basically, nothing save perhaps a message that the religion has grown stronger). Note that the modifier that governs the failure rate of missionaries is dependant on the number of slots filled--so the missionary still has to pass the RNG check to make a spread, but he can now still fail even if there's only one religion, albeit a powerful one.

When a religion attempts to spread to a city that has all slots filled (a challenge in itself since it gets harder to proselytize in a city with serious devotees--in fact, it should only be possible through the direct work of missionaries), it will fill one of the current slots at random, evicting its occupant. State religions can get a single re-roll if their number comes up. If the target slot contains the same religion that is trying to spread, there is no change and the player who sent the missionary gets a "failed to spread" message. If the target slot contains a religion that is not an any other slot, the religion will cease to be practiced as a major force in the town. The city's owner will receive a "fallen out of favor" notification, and all the religious building will cease to function (they will not be destroyed, however, and may still produce culture at a lessened rate). Defunct monasteries will produce no missionaries, defunct temples will not count towards cathedrals, defunct cathedrals will produce a flat per-turn culture instead of a +50% boost, the Spiral Minaret will get no gold from any defunct building, no happiness/science boosts will be generated, etc. These building will be fully restored if the religion is successfully re-introduced.

The number of religion slots available may change over time with new techs (not Civics, though; if the number of slots suddenly decreased with a civic change, that would cause some odd effects), though there should be at least one per religion available by Liberalism. This will primarily serve to make getting all seven religions in a city and all the inherent happiness, science, specialist slots, etc. much harder, as the later religions will often supplant their predecessors.

In order to give later religions a fighting chance, they should get more than a single Missionary. Perhaps several. In addition, there should be hard-and-fast caps on the number of slots held by a single religion that are not removed until the later religions have had a chance to get established (maybe religion-founding techs, or at least religion-related ones, should loosen the caps--it certainly makes sense for some techs to allow stronger religions). Also, the natural spread of these late-game religions is increased notably for a certain number of turns. Finally, the late-game religions would start out with stronger Missionaries that are more likely to spread their faith. Religions like Hinduism and Buddhism would have their Missionaries subtly upgraded with a later tech, but not before the late starters have had a chance to catch up. Of course, if Islam gets founded in a country that already has the Hindu Holy City, the odds of it ever going anywhere are pretty slim regardless, since the civ would see little reason to weaken his alliance systems, but this at least gives Confucianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Taoism a fighting chance.

 

[Panther_GR]

Nazi-like Helmet?

NAZI-LIKE HELMET!?

If you mean Bismark's Pointy Conquering Hat of Doom (tm) then I'm obligated to call you an idiot. In case you dind't know, these sharp, pointy, helms were employed by Germans back in the 1800s, and carried on into the first world war. Pointy Conquering Hats of Doom (tm) were a symbol of german power in an era which predated Hitler's philosiphy, and to associate one with the other is folly.

Yes, yes... I know all that.

Guys we are not stupid here. All who we speak english in a non mother-tongue level cannot express ourselves 100%. I tried to be humourus here...

And yes. To most of us this "Pointy Conquering Hat of Doom" loooks like a Nazi helmet. And yes. To most of us a German that demands me to convert to Judaism is hillarious