Removing insta-heals / escorting units

[Noitcelfer]

So I've been playing a lot of multiplayer recently, and thought I would suggest a few ideas here, as I don't know where else to send them - does anyone know of an "official" avenue for suggesting features / bug fixes?

There are a lot of timing related issues out there, but one of the most common I hear people complaining about is "Oh man, I was just about to heal that unit" or "That's unfair, I was just about to kill that unit". Insta-heals are unrealistic (not that that's an argument for exclusion), and can turn the tide of a battle completely based on "actions per minute" (this ain't StarCraft, people). It's even worse when someone decides to enable "promotion saving".

While there are a lot of options for fixing this (such as allowing the promotion as soon as it's earned, rather than at the start of the next turn, or only allowing promotions in cities / friendly territory), the simplest would be just to remove them. This would be very easy to code.

This would also have the side benefit of slowing down the Iroquois Rush Strategy. I currently finish 4 player Pan games in under 60-70 turns taking the Monument > warrior > warrior > warrior... approach (liberty for settler, then honor). While some people know how to combat this (horses and archers, or unique units), there is always one person won't be ready / have horses. Kill him, insta-heal to keep units fresh, and then move on with momentum (with captured workers hooking up a road behind). Having to wait a few more turns to attack in the first place / recover after attacks, would slow this up from being an almost guaranteed win.

One other thing that would be great - "Escort" mode - assign a unit to a settler / worker, and those two units move together. Would be fantastic for the early game (where people either don't escort, or lose units due to latency / mis-clicks). Anything to encourage the "grrr, lost my settler/worker, rage-quitters" to prevent their units from being taken by barbs / opponents would be great. Would be nice if it worked for automated units also.

Noitcelfer

p.s. one other thing - a "reset my graphics" option would be great for the rare times where you get the "gray clouds" or "ghost images".

 

[Silverfuturist]

Good points! Also, escorting generals with units would be great also.

I was the guy who noted that my Aztec sword was a split second away from insta-healing at your nearly destroyed capital, but you were faster, and instead of me taking your capital you took mine in industrial age. But on reflection, my attack force included 2 archers, and if I had made those Jags instead than losing that insta-heal would not have mattered. Normally the only archers I send for early rushes are the scouts that find weapons in ruins. That rush was a challenge because I had a 2 iron not a 6, when I find a 6 iron I get several more Jag-swords in the fray, so I experimented with a few archers.

I don't know if you play league games, but I think you are candidate for somebody who could rise up the ranks. Just be weary of duels at first, they are a different game than FFA. On pangea maps ancient start, pretty much spamming cities and spamming units like swords beat "normal" FFA setups (unless there is something unusual with the map.) The only people I lose to in duels now are a few people high on the civplayers ranking list, simply because liberty production iron rush gets me EZ wins, and most civ players don't know that.

 

[Noitcelfer]

Good point on the GGs.

One of the things I forgot to mention is that the insta-heals can be deliberately exploited with City States / barbs. I've seen people send units over to city states and be "bombarded" till they are 10-14xp and then send them off to war.

Insta-heals are a nice Single Player mechanic, but too easily exploitable in multiplayer.

Yeah - I've noticed a lot of "leakage" of good Dual strategies ending up in FFAs of late. For example, people are now scouting for the "HG" player and rushing him either to take it, or to delay him so they can produce it themselves. It normally backfires, as either the attack fails, or a third party gets the gardens first. But it just goes to show how overpowered it is.

Had a guy playing Egypt go nuts at me for making it in turn 31 (he was still 10 turns away).

 

[Tabarnak]

At least it's impossible to keep promos in mp games. Otherwise, gathering 2-3 of them would be way too much powerful!

If you really want to kill units fast and not let them insta heals, ranged units are your friend. They onily get 2xp from each hit. And don't bombard ''for nothing''.

 

[slyrp]

At least it's impossible to keep promos in mp games. Otherwise, gathering 2-3 of them would be way too much powerful!

If you really want to kill units fast and not let them insta heals, ranged units are your friend. They onily get 2xp from each hit. And don't bombard ''for nothing''.

LOL, if I had Gold for every time someone bombarded a unit, just vainly just giving it experience (knowing they won't kill it in time), I would be able to buy more nukes than Ghandi.

 

[Tabarnak]

LOL, if I had Gold for every time someone bombarded a unit, just vainly just giving it experience (knowing they won't kill it in time), I would be able to buy more nukes than Ghandi.

Are you talking about the Honor finisher?

 

[Pouakai]

Are you talking about the Honor finisher?

It's equivalent to the saying, 'If I had a dollar every time I heard that...'

 

[Silverfuturist]

Good point on the GGs.

One of the things I forgot to mention is that the insta-heals can be deliberately exploited with City States / barbs. I've seen people send units over to city states and be "bombarded" till they are 10-14xp and then send them off to war.

Insta-heals are a nice Single Player mechanic, but too easily exploitable in multiplayer.

Yeah - I've noticed a lot of "leakage" of good Dual strategies ending up in FFAs of late. For example, people are now scouting for the "HG" player and rushing him either to take it, or to delay him so they can produce it themselves. It normally backfires, as either the attack fails, or a third party gets the gardens first. But it just goes to show how overpowered it is.

Had a guy playing Egypt go nuts at me for making it in turn 31 (he was still 10 turns away).

Unless you far away from other players, going for wonders so early is very risky when playing strong players. While you went for Math to get HG, they have iron already, and unless they screw up by not sending enough melee units (like I did), or they got unlucky by not having Iron anywhere remotely near them to settle on, you will not be able to defend.

Also, in our game, I noticed America had no army for most of the game. He had at most a warrior/scout (could tell by demographics number.) I don't know how far he was from other players, but anybody with a few swords could have puppeted him, and should have. Instead he was rewarded by being a tech leader...

I highly recommend you give league cton a try. For those who don't know, cton is FFA but constant war is required between all players. Inland sea is often the map, with Pangea some players get lucky with being in a corner and others shafted by being surrounded by several players.

 

[uigaw423]

Unless you far away from other players, going for wonders so early is very risky when playing strong players. While you went for Math to get HG, they have iron already, and unless they screw up by not sending enough melee units (like I did), or they got unlucky by not having Iron anywhere remotely near them to settle on, you will not be able to defend.

Also, in our game, I noticed America had no army for most of the game. He had at most a warrior/scout (could tell by demographics number.) I don't know how far he was from other players, but anybody with a few swords could have puppeted him, and should have. Instead he was rewarded by being a tech leader...

I highly recommend you give league cton a try. For those who don't know, cton is FFA but constant war is required between all players. Inland sea is often the map, with Pangea some players get lucky with being in a corner and others shafted by being surrounded by several players.

Why do you league guys insist that equal set ups = the most fun games?

To me always having an equal set up, like on a four corners map, limit the game style to one type of style.

Why shouldn't you have the occassional map where you wind up isolated? Or your opponent does? (for bigger ffa type maps)

Variety is the spice of life no?

It just frustrates me to no end when people insists the game must be equal on all settings. This means you don't have to adjust your play to a bump in the road. Oh no, I have no iron, but I am far enough away from opponents or have a good enough choke point that maybe I should be defensive. The game has many ways to come out ahead if the map isn't limited into battle map type maps (four corners, east / west, north / south, etc).

Yes, you might lose the occassional game. Let's go cry b/c we lost. It is a game, I am assuming you are an adult, deal with it. I am not saying don't enjoy your limited scope games, because I get when those are fun too, but I personally find that boring.

***Everything I said here is my opinion and not an attack on a player or group!***

 

[Silverfuturist]

Why do you league guys insist that equal set ups = the most fun games?

To me always having an equal set up, like on a four corners map, limit the game style to one type of style.

Why shouldn't you have the occassional map where you wind up isolated? Or your opponent does? (for bigger ffa type maps)

Variety is the spice of life no?

It just frustrates me to no end when people insists the game must be equal on all settings. This means you don't have to adjust your play to a bump in the road. Oh no, I have no iron, but I am far enough away from opponents or have a good enough choke point that maybe I should be defensive. The game has many ways to come out ahead if the map isn't limited into battle map type maps (four corners, east / west, north / south, etc).

Yes, you might lose the occassional game. Let's go cry b/c we lost. It is a game, I am assuming you are an adult, deal with it. I am not saying don't enjoy your limited scope games, because I get when those are fun too, but I personally find that boring.

***Everything I said here is my opinion and not an attack on a player or group!***

Casual games, I will play any setup... its fun doesn't matter. For ranked games, I want = settings.

 

[Tabarnak]

If a large amount of games are played, settings begin to be irrelevant. You need to be very very unlucky to always be in a bad spot everytime.

 

[uigaw423]

Casual games, I will play any setup... its fun doesn't matter. For ranked games, I want = settings.

This tells me there is a problem with the ranking system if the occassional bad start hurts you that bad.

I get how equality could matter in a duel. But playing a duel isn't playing the same game as a larger game. I personally 4 people and below games to be almost the exact same everytime.

I also don't think it says much about the ranking system if it is done under exactly equal conditions. Sure, that person is the best at the conditions set up, but best over all is a lot differnet when you add in other factors.

But you also, if you are such a league supporter, probably don't do an actually FFA and only do CTON. Again, THIS ELIMINATES A HUGE PART OF THE GAME.

If you are able to talk someone into teaming up with you to level out the front runner a bit then diplomacy is part of the game. In my opinion, if you have no diplomacy, you have no civ. Meaning without diplomacy civ is just a war game. Always has, always will be that way.

Multiplayer games being limited typically to 6 players max (with the occassional 8 player game) limits diplomacy enough. Though with 8 good players you start to really see why the strategies that work in a duel or other limited games (CTON, team, East vs West, Four Coners, North vs South, etc) do not work in long time frames.

Not quitting is an important part of that. I would rather fight a person than an AI down to the last city, which, if you kill me that will be the case. I have heard from several people in the NQ group the same sentiments. Heck, I saw a guy yesterday lose a major city and then come back 20-25 turns later to take out the guy that had started off winning the war. Guess what, he had no iron, yet still was managable.

Those are the reasons why this game is the game it is and has been for so long.

 

[Tabarnak]

I would like to play a big 8 players game with known buddies. You only need to reload if game crash or something. It's not that bad. Can finish in many session too. That's what i would call an epic game(sry Onan i stole your title lol).

 

[NOQUITTERSULTAN]

i am so happy that diplomacy is finnaly a factor when playing civ 5...it is making the game more unpredictablale and fun..the balance of power in a game can be dealt with trought diplo..like in the real world...when i play civ 5 i want 2 feel the power of a nation..or alliance....thanks to NO QUITTERS we can finnaly play a game thats almost like in real world..

Guildelines for No Quitter Group

1) Do not QUIT unless you have a VALID REASON.
i) Something UNEXPECTED in REAL LIFE happened
ii) You LOST your CAPITAL CITY
iii) All players in the game agree that the game is over, and declare winner
iv) ALL players in the game agree that your civ is weak and irrelevant to the development of the game.
v) If you QUIT without valid reason, you will be KICKED

2) Try therefore not to START a game unless you have ENOUGH TIME
i) Tiny (5 + hours)
ii) Small (7 + hours)
iii) Standard (9 + hours)

3) If you look for a GAME, try the NQ CHAT room.
i) An easy and effective way to get games.
ii) If enough players join the chat, players can find a GG at any point in time.
iii) Please refrain from using foul language in chat.

4) One can also post announcements in NQ lobby when hosting a game.
i) Announcements will reach everyone in the group, letting them know that a game is underway.
ii) Do not spam announcements. It is annoying for the members and leaves alot of cleaning up to do.
iii) Please try to delete your announcements as you make them.

5) Please DO NOT JOIN RANDOM GAMES in NQ lobby without permission.

6) INVITE as many no quitting PLAYERS you possibly can!
i) More players mean more epic NO QUITTING games

7) If somebody quits without proper reason, tell one of the admins, so that the quitter can be removed from group ASAP.
i) Send a message identifying the quitter and the other players in the game, making it possible for the admins to double-check with them before ejecting the player from the group.
ii) It is hard to stop quitters from joining, but easy to kick them
iii)We keep track of quitters on the wall in the NQ main group page. Feel free to add quitters on our list!

8) If GAME for some reason CRASHES, ALWAYS meet in NQ CHAT to RELOAD. NO EXCEPTIONS!

9) Since Civ V Multiplayer is extremely buggy, try to use DX9 when playing MP in order to to minimize bug issues.

10) Alliances are allowed on an ad hoc basis, depending on the balance of power in the game. Collusion will not be tolerated.

11) Gifting cities to other players when facing a certain death is not allowed.

12) Feel free at add NQ in your steam name to support and promote our group. This is of course 100 % voluntary.

13) HAVE FUN!


take a look here!!

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/NO_QUITTERS

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: Back to topic!

 

[NOQUITTERSULTAN]

the instant heal is unrealistic i think...i want the game to be realistic so healing in enemy land like instant heal is unrealistic..they should remove it and Noitcelfer had some god pointers here...gg


http://steamcommunity.com/groups/NO_QUITTERS

 

[Crdnl Richelieu]

iii) Please refrain from using foul language in chat.

take a look here!!

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/NO_QUITTERS

I clicked the link. The first sentence in the description reads "F**K QUITTERS IN CIV!".

Anyway, back on topic - Instaheal in MP really rips my knitting as well.

 

[Noitcelfer]

So as to the other part of my question - where is the best place to suggest these changes? Do developers / game designers read these threads? It would be great if there was a bugzilla for Civ or something