Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ash88, Jan 25, 2011.
You got a refund but what changed?
Let's deal with this misconception that a company needs to pay something in order to receive the highest rating at the BBB:
The entire, detailed rating system is available online here. This goes into details about every single category that is rated, how much each category is worth, what is considered in each category, and numerically how the point total translates into a grade (from A to F). You will notice that there are no points assigned anywhere for "paying money to the BBB." So if someone has asked a company to pay money to the BBB for a better grade then they should contact the FTC - because something is awry. Here is a summary of the link (the link has much more detail).
Now, the BBB does receive money from companies. Those companies are called "accredited" in the BBB system. Not all companies can become accredited because the BBB has an even more stringent requirement for companies to become accredited (detailed here).
In any case, the BBB is transparent about what companies they receive money from - a company that is accredited they receive money from, a company that isn't accredited they do not. However, the labels and requirements of being "accredited" are completely separate from the A to F grading scheme.
All of this is documented on the BBB website. For those that feel the BBB is blatantly lying through their website, well, again, contact the FTC and ask if the BBB is a reputable business and that should silence that idea.
If I got a refund, what changed would be a dissatisfied customer that is slightly less dissatisfied.
Of course, if no one ever did anything in life, nothing would ever change. And you, me, or anyone that doesn't work at 2K/Firaxis can't know if something may have changed. So let's leave this rhetoric and back-and-forth discussion somewhere else. I'm sure, even you Senethro, would like the Civilization game to have all the bugs in the game ironed out.
We should all do what they can, no matter how small (leaving posts here, or making a phone call).
If I spend an hour on the phone, and it has a chance of waking someone at 2K up which might improve the next game (however small that may be), I feel that is time well spent.
civ 5 does in fact work as intended the only thing you guys have come up with is that dlc does not work in multiplayer.
on a side note comming up with a rediculas hypothetical such as the fact that if I bought a car and it did not work I would not do anything about it is just proves how over the top you are, I have returned many items to the store, and got free repairs at an auto shop that did not repair my car correctly what the op stated doing would be a huge time investment to get 20 bucks back so his time and your time are obviously not worth that much to you guys plain and simple when you get older and have a wife, kids, work, and hobbies you dont have much down time to spend on such things I dont get around to playing games till 8:00pm and then Im in bed by 10:00, or 10:30 so I can wake up at 6:00am to workout when in the world would I have time like that to waste to get 20 bucks back?
Seems you have a whole lot of time to spend in this thread. In far less time you could have called customer service if you were dissatisfied to see about your options. If I feel like I got shafted, I don't have any limit of money that I am willing to just 'take it'. Obviously larger purchases will get more attention. But many bought this game for $100. And at release, you couldn't buy it for $20.
If you are so busy as you claim to be, perhaps you should be tending to your wife, kids, and other more important things than playing PC games.
Moderator Action: Don't bring unrelated people into the topic. Discuss the content, not the presents users.
No one should 'feel bad' as you say for contacting customer service if you are unhappy with a product, ever. If it's 50 cents, or if it's $60-100 game.
Humm... well then, it seems that multiplayer is a reasonable issue to feel that your trust has been violated on, no? Of course, "multiplayer" doesn't take into account the other issues people have, or from this "Civ-5 The Complete Issue" thread now does it? I mean, here is just a brief brief list of the so-called "intended operation":
NOw, this is just a smattering of different issues in a rather long list. If you say this is all "intended" then good for you, but I respect the people that think differently and see no harm in giving them the tools and information to follow through with that. Do you? If so - why? What does it cost you?
It took me about 30 minutes, all said and done, to contact the company. I get free long distance. It took about 30 minutes to fill out the stuff for the BBB. "Huge" is a relative term I suppose, but again, I can say that my 60 minutes spent on these things produces more real results then sitting around playing a video game - kind of ironic isn't it. SO to each his own
Again, scroll up in this thread - I posted already about how it is amusing that anyone who enjoys hitting next turn, next turn, next turn on a video game for hours feels comfortable lecturing strangers on the internet about the value of their time Dontcha think? If not - ok, to each his own.
Since I'm retired I can happily respond and say that when *you* get a little older you will realize that helping out your fellow man by giving them resources and knowledge is always a valuable use of time.
With a wife and kids I'm surprised you have time to play games at all! I would have felt incredibly irresponsible wasting my time playing games at that point in my life. From 8pm until bed was wife and me time! I mean, I remember thinking at the time, "Well, no time for games anymore because I want to be a good father and husband." I always felt it was impossible for me to do that and I would personally recommend to my RL friends in that situation to put their gaming on hold. But if you have found a healthy way to balance your life then I respect that, and I wouldn't be ignorant enough to judge the life of a stranger on the internet
Now that I have some more time again I luckily don't have that problem. But I agree - if standing up for your consumer rights will negatively affect your family life, health, or mental stability - well - don't do it! Let us people at a different point in our lives do it for you. We got your back family man!
Is that winking emote a form of specialized punctuation mark used to denote when you believe you've delivered "a zinger"?
Given that all software has bugs, what is a reasonable standard to expect of software on release and 1 or 6 months after release?
You say "30 minutes" after a post where you said you called up multiple staff members daily for weeks. There can't be many sections of the population where time spent to get a refund will be greater than minimum wage work. If you can't show tangible benefits then what intangible ones are there?
You make a personal attack against a man using his leisure time as he wishes on a fansite related to that leisure pursuit implying he is irresponsible. You then further claim the moral high ground by implying your efforts are improving this hobby for other people.
Do you appreciate the irony?
Nope - I'm just friendly. Reading into the intention of emoticons is never a good thing.
I think everyone is different. There is no universal black and white. What do you think?
My previously detailed example with Steam isn't what I am talking about - but even that it was less than 10 minutes a day for 2 weeks - so what's that - 100 minutes? 1 hour and 20 minutes? Again - "huge amount of time" is a relative term. Some people that think it is worth it will do it, and I respect their view. Some people that don't think it is worth it won't and I respect their view. I'm just giving some information for the people to use their efforts in a reasonable direction.
Well - raising awareness about consumer advocacy for one. How much value do put on that? I might put more value on that then you do, I might not. Neither of us are "right" or "wrong" - but at least we are both now informed!
I think you might have your posts backwards. I was accused of not valuing my time enough - in response I said that no one should judge anyone on the internet for how they use their time.
Moreover - I have never claimed a "moral high ground" (I have never felt the need to) - I'm simply giving information and dispelling some of the blatant fabrications that have happened hereto in this thread.
More often than most people realize
(Edit: We should probably not further any discussion about "me" for fear of this thread being moderated. If you have any questions about me, my motives, how I spend my time, the health of my family, or what I ate for breakfast I will actively watch my inbox )
thanks for your post im done with reply to these guys, I just want to clear one thing up I post on this board during down times at work, I have a job where I cant make long calls to companys, and have to be free to take client calls, and deal with clients that walk in, occasionaly I will post on the board at night. to the op that claims I should be tending to my wife I dont play games every night heck I usualy play them 2 nights a week but me and my wife also like to have time for our own intrest. and to tom2050 you personal attack of "If you are so busy as you claim to be, perhaps you should be tending to your wife, kids, and other more important things than playing PC games." is extreamly uncalled for im an excellent father and husbend just because I play games a few nights a week instead of ploping in front of the tv every night like most people do does not make me a bad parent.
I was just pointing out, that all the time you spent here making posts, you could have dialed customer service if you were dissatisfied with a product, and it would have taken a similar amount of time.
Also, while you play games 2 nights a week, dial the company on 1 of those nights and put it on speaker phone while you play. Multi-tasking is a part of life. Therefore, you waste no time, and you can get 2 things done at once.
Just some friendly advice from someone in mid-life (why is age being brought up here? )
I think you should read my post again - I never was ignorant enough to judge you or how you spend your time. I would never claim that someone on the internet was "wasting their time." In fact, I said I respected your decision.
However, my inbox will be waiting for an apology if you find you did some of what you now accuse others of.
In any case - I enjoyed our chat and what you brought to this thread was some great different views.
I'll be honest man, those winks look like sarcasm marks, especially when there were the same number of them as full stops/periods. Or maybe like the guy who stands just offset during filming and holds up signs so that the audience know the correct response.
If your post is intended sincerely, they detract from that.
Just stop please, getting off-topic with what you believe an emoticon means. The definition of a wink (excluded the inappropriate-to-Civ Forums part that has nothing to do with Civ Forums):
A wink is a facial expression made by briefly closing one eye. A wink is an informal mode of communication usually signalling, depending on context, shared hidden knowledge or intent.
Removed just for you. This topic is too important to be side railed by conversations about how to interpret emoticons!
Tom, I respect your opinion as a mature and rational forum contributor
My apologies. Let me clarify since my post was more of a BBB is a joke. BBB is a fine organization with goals that should be upheld. Unfortunately, this idea isn't upheld by some of their sales staff. Even though this less then reputable sales staff is probably a small percentage it still affects the outlook of the organization. I worked prior to the whole A-F category but even then I heard people I worked with say, "if you pay the fee we can eliminate the negative and make your account positive". Is this right? No. Does BBB have anything to do with this? No. Does that mean it doesn't go on within BBB? No. Does BBB sanction it? Not from what I've seen but that doesn't stop it. The problem is that the organization thrives off of sales from the very organizations they supposedly police. Note that police is a very weak word for what they do since they are more of an intermediary.
To your post. The fact is, no, in order to receive the highest rating do you don't need to pay BBB. But then again, it doesn't hurt either. The point of my post was not to discredit the BBB but to say that if you want to try a route to change how CiV5 came out and make sure it doesn't happen to Civ6, BBB isn't the route to go.
BBB used to mean something but with the age of internet it has basically faltered. People much rather just log on to yelp or similar sites than check the BBB. No one even checks BBB anymore which is why there are several large international companies that just don't care what they rate on the BBB website.
So let me understand this correctly:
ME: Here is a website that shows how the BBB rates companies. You can contact the FTC and ask about their view of scams involving the BBB and whether the employees in the BBB are corrupt. There is accountability that can be measured.
YOU: Trust me, people all over the BBB are corrupt and the organization is helpless to do anything about it. I don't need to provide any references for this accusation, just trust me. I know.
Is that about the sum of the argument?
As for the relevance of the BBB - well - 33% of people that asked the BBB to arbitrate with 2K would disagree with you. 66% of the people that asked the BBB to arbitrate between them and EA would disagree with you. These are stats available on the net and verifiable through the FTC. You don't need to "trust me."
Well said. Good thread too by the way, thanks.
I was lucky enough to get Best Buy to give me a refund of the game into week 3 of Civ5. Having played every version of Civ since the early 90's, I knew that Civ 5 was Civ fail. The reason Civ 5 has failed is because of the path it has taken into the dumbed down Farmville type in-app content. Another reason of failure is due to Steam. While I think Steam can be good for many games, it is not good for a Civ game and never will be.
I'm not surprised to see threads like this starting to show up as many dissatisfied customers are finally coming to grips that Civ5 cannot be fixed into the game that should have followed after Civ 4. Unfortunately, the bad taste that Civ 5 has left in my mouth is probably the last taste I'll ever get of the future of the Civ series.
That isn't my argument. The overwhelming majority of BBB staff members are fine people who do their job well. However, as with any large organization, you are going to have employees who bend/break the rules. I'm sure these people are released or fired once it is discovered but that doesn't stop it from happening. As for the relevancy, which was more my point, I'll take your example. EA sports received a little over 800 complaints over a three year span. I don't see how 800 complaints is relevant considering EA is one of the largest gaming companies with what probably amounts to billions in sales. I'm sure BBB is relevant to those 800 people, assuming no duplicates, but I fail to see how a percent of a percent of a percent can be deemed as being relevant.
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