Reputation for sneak attacks

[DarwinMayflower]

Do you take a reputation hit for having troops inside another player's territory before you declare war with that player, even if there was no right of passage agreement?

Last night I was playing as the Indians and decided to go to war with the Japanese. They were constantly running troops into my territory and I had to tell them to move their troops every turn. So I moved my troops into his territory. (We did not have a ROP)When he told me to get out or declare war, I declared war. Only then did I attack his forces.

Later, I tried to get a ROP from the Chinese. They refused and referred to my "sneak attack" against the Japanese. I got the ROP later for a ton of gold and techs.

So, did that indicate that my reputation had taken a hit? Or were the Chinese just wary of my aggression because I declared war? Do I have to remove my troops from an enemy's territory before declaring war to avoid that reputation hit? Is this like an off-sides in hockey?

 

[Evie]

No, your rep had taken a hit. The general agreement is that when you get a "We'll move our troops out asap" without the troops actually moving, you enter a sort of temporary RoP. Therefore, if next turn you attack them...

To any extent, even if you didn't get the first message, it's considered "backstabbing" to move troops without declaring war.

 

[Zouave]

Reputation hits really make me laugh.

I once was attacked for no reason by the distant Romans who marched halfway across a continent to bounce of my fortresses. They soon asked for peace. Yea, whatever, A thousand years later I was being insulted for my "perfidy" to the Romans.

A border once flipped over my mine, garisoned fortress, and iton resource, all three tiles from a town. I was insulted, ordered to get off, and when I of course refused, was known as a warmonger for millennia.

So the whole rep thing is bizarre and can't be made sense of.

 

[Reichsmarshal]

Originally posted by DarwinMayflower


Later, I tried to get a ROP from the Chinese. They refused and referred to my "sneak attack" against the Japanese. I got the ROP later for a ton of gold and techs.

So, did that indicate that my reputation had taken a hit? Or were the Chinese just wary of my aggression because I declared war? Do I have to remove my troops from an enemy's territory before declaring war to avoid that reputation hit? Is this like an off-sides in hockey?

I have similar incidents all the time. It seems that sometimes the other civ has gotten over it and is willing to make deal again, then all of a sudden they refuse every type of deal again.

There are also other factors that determine how much the enemy cares about the betrayal, like direct betrayal rather than indirect. If the deal is extremely good and you frequently traded with them in the past, they seem more willing to deal with you even with a more questionable reputation. Distant civs seem to be more paranoid about reputation. Allies tend to care less than others about reputation until they cancel the military alliance/protection pact.

Anyone else notice the enemy civs have no problems making mutal protection pacts even when they break them all the time?

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Zouave

A border once flipped over my mine, garisoned fortress, and iton resource, all three tiles from a town. I was insulted, ordered to get off, and when I of course refused, was known as a warmonger for millennia.

You should have moved your troops one tile (out of enemy territory) and then declared war to take back the resources. Reputation hits come not because of war, but because of declaring war with troops in enemy territory (no matter how strongly you feel the territory was yours).

So the whole rep thing is bizarre and can't be made sense of.

It certainly can be understood. It just takes a little observation, thought, and practice.

 

[DarwinMayflower]

Thanks for the input. I'll have to make sure I declare war before massing troops inside someone's borders now.

Everybody seems willing to deal with me again. But I'm sure I'm paying for it somewhat in inflated prices. The Chinese and the Japanese seem to be offering the fairest deals, even though the Japanese were the ones I attacked. I guess being in their culture group helps mend fences a bit.

 

[GeneralTacticus]

I once was attacked for no reason by the distant Romans who marched halfway across a continent to bounce of my fortresses. They soon asked for peace. Yea, whatever, A thousand years later I was being insulted for my "perfidy" to the Romans.

Sounds weird. Which version was this in? Did you actually do anything to them?

 

[thomson_2001]

I once attacked the Chineese right at the beggining of a game. I started the war in there territory and that p*ssed all the other 8 civs off. That was about 600BC, its now 2020AD and every turn of the game every civ has been either "angry" or "furious"! HOW LONG CAN U HOLD A GRUDGE! Just ruined the game a little as trades were tougher and MPP not exsistant!

 

[Myartar]

Originally posted by thomson_2001
I once attacked the Chineese right at the beggining of a game. I started the war in there territory and that p*ssed all the other 8 civs off. That was about 600BC, its now 2020AD and every turn of the game every civ has been either "angry" or "furious"! HOW LONG CAN U HOLD A GRUDGE! Just ruined the game a little as trades were tougher and MPP not exsistant!

Well, look at some of those ethic groups in the Balkans who are working about a grudge that's been going on a few centires, Jews and Muslums have been goin at it for over a thousand years, and some tribes in Africa have been fighting since thier war were just sticks and stones. Never underestimate the power of hatred in groups.

On topic, I agree that reputation is really shady. I broke an RoP and took out the Americans in my current game and everyone still hates me. The Japanese did it once to the Aztecs and once to the Indians and everyone just loves Tokugowa... There seems to be NO penelty to the AI on reputaion.

 

[GeneralTacticus]

Jews and Muslums have been goin at it for over a thousand years,

Actually the fighting between Jews and Muslims had only been going since the 1920s-30s. The Irish are a good example though.

On topic, I agree that reputation is really shady. I broke an RoP and took out the Americans in my current game and everyone still hates me. The Japanese did it once to the Aztecs and once to the Indians and everyone just loves Tokugowa... There seems to be NO penelty to the AI on reputaion.

Would you really trust someone who you knew had exploited a ROP to attack someone else? My own experience tells me that if they do it once, they WILL do it again.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

forget the historical examples, the simple fact of having a Scout/worker/any other unit in enemy territory when declaring war is enough to be a ROP-breaker. Even without ROP......

 

[hr_oskar]

I don't think the AI is necessarily too unforgiving in Civ3. As noted above, it's not exactly unrealistic...

It's annoying, admittedly, playing those games where you know the AI will never ever smile to you again and there's no chance of a fair deal anymore... so in response to the rejection, you wipe 'em all out

I think what's missing is some clear in-game guidance to rep hits; e.g. the foreign advisor would be very nice to warn you when you're about to do something disreputable. Also as some have suggested, a record of your past relations with each of the AI civs, containing info on past offences that have damaged your (or their) reputation.

I mean, rep hits are clearly a significant game concept, how come we have to go to forums to learn the details? I didn't know about "non-ROP ROP-breaking" before I came here, for instance.

 

[Yzman]

I think there should be an option to see how your rep is. For example you could have a black mark on your rep or something like that. I wanna know when my rep goes down.

 

[Agamemnus]

Question:

If I move my troops into enemy territory for one turn and the next turn the enemy screams at me to get them off, and I declare War, will I still get a black mark?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Yep!

 

[Agamemnus]

Aw man! And it's a Deity game too! And the Egyptians aren't Gracious to me any more!

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Agamemnus
Question:

If I move my troops into enemy territory for one turn and the next turn the enemy screams at me to get them off, and I declare War, will I still get a black mark?

The answer is really based on your definition of "black mark"! If "black mark" mean other civs won't trade with you on the GPT (gold per turn) deal, then the answer is "no". Otherwise, the answer is "yes".