Request, AI trading.

[Funak]

One thing I really loved about this mod was the fact that the AI really was no-nonsense when it came to trading, if you showed them an item they would give you the max value they were willing to pay for it, if they asked for a trade they started out by suggesting the max value they were willing to pay.
This changed for some reason some time ago and I really don't understand why, now all AI pretty much always suggest 1 gpt for anything, with you being manually able to raise it to anything between 4 and 17 (from what I've seen).

I understand that this is probably some attempt to add more flavor to the trading-system, a human player would never offer the max value from the start, they would haggle for it and so on. But this isn't a human, this is a computer, it is scripted to accept one specific maximum price at one specific point.
I have no idea if I'm alone at this, but the only thing this does for me is waste my time by having me start from a really high number and working my way down until the AI accepts.

Anyways, here is the request, could we please go back to the system where the AI just gives their maximum value straight from the start?


EDIT: Request sounds kinda harsh, replace every 'request' with 'suggestion'

 

[Gazebo]

One thing I really loved about this mod was the fact that the AI really was no-nonsense when it came to trading, if you showed them an item they would give you the max value they were willing to pay for it, if they asked for a trade they started out by suggesting the max value they were willing to pay.
This changed for some reason some time ago and I really don't understand why, now all AI pretty much always suggest 1 gpt for anything, with you being manually able to raise it to anything between 4 and 17 (from what I've seen).

I understand that this is probably some attempt to add more flavor to the trading-system, a human player would never offer the max value from the start, they would haggle for it and so on. But this isn't a human, this is a computer, it is scripted to accept one specific maximum price at one specific point.
I have no idea if I'm alone at this, but the only thing this does for me is waste my time by having me start from a really high number and working my way down until the AI accepts.

Anyways, here is the request, could we please go back to the system where the AI just gives their maximum value straight from the start?


EDIT: Request sounds kinda harsh, replace every 'request' with 'suggestion'

The 'old' system was actually a consequence of bugs. No going back now!

More clear: Variability is part of BNW, but it was poorly implemented (and was buggy).

G

 

[Funak]

The 'old' system was actually a consequence of bugs. No going back now!

Clarifying, I have no problem with prices varying with the leaders mood or your mood or some random number generator, that is a fun feature, but the combination of you having no idea of how the AI is valuing something and the AI directly refusing to tell you how much they are willing to pay for something just means a lot of trial and error, every trade.
The consequence of this for me is that I just stop trading halfway into the game, the trade-system just isn't worth all that hassle. I might be alone in this, others may enjoy picking a high number and subtracting 1 gpt every click until the AI agree, in that case you may ignore this message. The fact is that the current trade-system is so boring to me that once I don't have to deal with it anymore I ignore it, which probably isn't a good sign.

 

[Kolaris]

Yeah, I enjoy haggling in the early game where 1-2 GPT makes a difference, but eventually I reach a point where I just stop trading or stop caring about 200 gold.

 

[Gidoza]

Clarifying, I have no problem with prices varying with the leaders mood or your mood or some random number generator, that is a fun feature, but the combination of you having no idea of how the AI is valuing something and the AI directly refusing to tell you how much they are willing to pay for something just means a lot of trial and error, every trade.
The consequence of this for me is that I just stop trading halfway into the game, the trade-system just isn't worth all that hassle. I might be alone in this, others may enjoy picking a high number and subtracting 1 gpt every click until the AI agree, in that case you may ignore this message. The fact is that the current trade-system is so boring to me that once I don't have to deal with it anymore I ignore it, which probably isn't a good sign.

Agreed.

 

[Edaka]

But you can always agree to the AI's terms? Alternatively, you can add a couple/a handful of gpt to the deal and propose that, granted the AI will accept. I myself don't enjoy guessing the maximum price for my offer going down 1 gpt at a time, but I don't feel like you really have to. It's not a big deal if you get a couple of gpt less for your goods than you potentially could've, as long as you think the price was subjectively reasonable.

Of course, all that's true unless the AI's deal valuation has changed for the worse since the last time I've played a good, long game, and it's lowballing really hard right now. Being able to add another 17 gpt on top of the initial AI's proposal and have it accepted sounds huge if initially it was just a coule of gpt, but it's not a huge deal later in the game - all's relative. You didn't specify all the details, like how far it was into the game and how much money you were already making, when you were able to add that much to the deal, Funak.

I suppose I'm just not a fan of min-maxing my gain from deals with the AI like that - I feel that's kinda gamey. Of course, that's a personal preference coming from someone who values immersion in games fairly high. With the CP's improved AI sometimes I like to think that I'm playing against intelligent opponents, so I partly treat the trading system as if I was doing it with humans. When I think like that, I don't have a problem with the current model (nobody's required to agree with me).

 

[Funak]

But you can always agree to the AI's terms? Alternatively, you can add a couple/a handful of gpt to the deal and propose that, granted the AI will accept. I myself don't enjoy guessing the maximum price for my offer going down 1 gpt at a time, but I don't feel like you really have to. It's not a big deal if you get a couple of gpt less for your goods than you potentially could've, as long as you think the price was subjectively reasonable.

Of course, all that's true unless the AI's deal valuation has changed for the worse since the last time I've played a good, long game, and it's lowballing really hard right now. Being able to add another 17 gpt on top of the initial AI's proposal and have it accepted sounds huge if initially it was just a coule of gpt, but it's not a huge deal later in the game - all's relative. You didn't specify all the details, like how far it was into the game and how much money you were already making, when you were able to add that much to the deal, Funak.

Of course, that's what I do early-game, sometimes trying to maximize it, sometimes throwing an extra 3 gpt on top of it. In the lategame however when you get a ton of suggested trades for 1 luxury for 1 gpt or 14 coal for 10 gpt I just don't see the reason to care about it anymore, imo it isn't worth the hassle to re-write the trades and it really isn't worth helping the AI by giving them a basically free luxury.

I suppose I'm just not a fan of min-maxing my gain from deals with the AI like that - I feel that's kinda gamey. Of course, that's a personal preference coming from someone who values immersion in games fairly high. With the CP's improved AI sometimes I like to think that I'm playing against intelligent opponents, so I partly treat the trading system as if I was doing it with humans. When I think like that, I don't have a problem with the current model (nobody's required to agree with me).

Absolutely, and you're not required to agree with me either, anything I say is just my opinion not a fact.

 

[Gamewizard]

Don't you get positive diplo modifiers for trading in the AI's favor?

 

[Funak]

Don't you get positive diplo modifiers for trading in the AI's favor?

Nope. Only when they ask for direct favors.

 

[Edaka]

Nope. Only when they ask for direct favors.

I don't think you do in that case either, it's just that you will get a negative modifier shall you decline their request for help.

 

[Funak]

I don't think you do in that case either, it's just that you will get a negative modifier shall you decline their request for help.

Possible, I never get any friend-requests anymore so I never have to give gifts

 

[Kolaris]

I don't think you do in that case either, it's just that you will get a negative modifier shall you decline their request for help.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I've also tried giving them gifts like they'll sometimes give me (for no reason that I can think of) and that gets me no relation bonus.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Now that I've experienced the 'peace deal' value system, I'd really like to see that available for trades. Maybe lock it behind a tech or something. It's so nice to not be guessing in a trade.

 

[Gazebo]

Now that I've experienced the 'peace deal' value system, I'd really like to see that available for trades. Maybe lock it behind a tech or something. It's so nice to not be guessing in a trade.

I've thought about this. Too gamey?
G

 

[PurpleMentat]

I've thought about this. Too gamey?
G

I don't think it's more gamey than setting a high price and dropping it 1 gold at a time. Same result, less annoyance, more accessible.

 

[Funak]

I've thought about this. Too gamey?
G

I don't think it's more gamey than setting a high price and dropping it 1 gold at a time. Same result, less annoyance, more accessible.

Well, it is either this or just letting them suggest the max value from the start, because as evidenced by this thread I'm clearly not alone in my feelings on this subject

 

[hokath]

letting them suggest the max value from the start

Yeah I like this. Not a massive fan of seeing those numbers pop up, immersion breaking for me.

 

[Edaka]

I don't think it's more gamey than setting a high price and dropping it 1 gold at a time. Same result, less annoyance, more accessible.

This is true for deals with purely gpt and maybe a couple of other resources, but it gets much too tedious when more variables in forms of more resources are added in and the 'What would make this deal work?' button just resets the deal to the same proposal. So yes, it could be considered 'gamey' to some extent.

However, I think trading would also become infinitely more accessible and convenient. In fact, I think that would diversify the trading system as you'd be able to precisely tailor the contents of every deal instead of using gpt as the go-to currency every time.

I suppose we could make DOF a requirement for the counter to show up, if needed. That would make dealing with friends much more transparent and enjoyable, while the trading intentions of strangers and such would still remain largely a mystery.

 

[Kolaris]

Yeah I like this. Not a massive fan of seeing those numbers pop up, immersion breaking for me.

But the numbers let us make more interesting trades. Otherwise I have no idea how much the AI values some non-Gold trade options.

 

[Mitch.sp]

I've thought about this. Too gamey?
G

And what about a mixture of both? Show in the trade window the approximate max value the AI will pay, being this the max value decremented by a random number for example in the range 0-30%.

This way the player that don't want to bother can make a quick trade, and the more meticulous can finetune the deal as now.