Request, AI trading.

Okay, I think I'm understanding. Even if you had a DoF going, that Luxury isn't going to get you the vote and 10 gold, it's worth exactly a vote against Gandhi.

Right. My example above wasn't even taking into consideration feelings based on deceptiveness, war desire, opinion, etc. - giving players that information will, I believe, give the player too much insight into AI machinations (i.e. if a value suddenly drops, you know they are planning war).

G
 
Right. My example above wasn't even taking into consideration feelings based on deceptiveness, war desire, opinion, etc. - giving players that information will, I believe, give the player too much insight into AI machinations (i.e. if a value suddenly drops, you know they are planning war).

G

We already use suddenly dropping values to watch for deceptiveness. It's why I play with Transparent Diplomacy. There's no reason not to. The alternative is an annoying, time consuming flip through all the supposedly-friendly AI every 5 turns to see who is undervaluing luxuries. The information is always available for every AI you have met, just the method for displaying it is arcane and annoying.

For example, I know that by Medieval the AI value luxuries around 9 gold per turn. That stays stable for a long time from me to them, but buying a luxury from them is quite a bit more costly. Buying their last copy of a luxury is always more expensive, and something has changed recently where they will no longer happily even swap their last copy of something for my last copy of a different thing.

I know that any time they put in 3 of a Strategic, I can probably drop it to 1 and they'll accept the deal. I know I can sell 1 strategic for 3 gold per turn on average.

I use these values to construct a price when I put something in the window and say, "What do you want for this?" The problem is they don't always tell me when they won't trade something no matter what, so I end up needing to offer ridiculous trades of 300 gold per turn to confirm that they indeed will not offer it at any price. Then, if they will take it for some price, I have to spend five minutes narrowing down exactly what that price is (as if you highly over-offer they tend to say "Sure but it's not fair to you!") and if that price is worth it to me.

Displaying the numbers won't give me information I can't access. It will just make gathering that information faster and less frustrating. It will also make trading with the AI on an efficient level more accessible to people with less playtime. The how of it, though, that seems like a difficult issue to tackle, and I don't know what to tell you if the values don't stay consistent. They seem consistent to me, to an extent, but I'm only comparing like to like.
 
We already use suddenly dropping values to watch for deceptiveness. It's why I play with Transparent Diplomacy. There's no reason not to. The alternative is an annoying, time consuming flip through all the supposedly-friendly AI every 5 turns to see who is undervaluing luxuries. The information is always available for every AI you have met, just the method for displaying it is arcane and annoying.

For example, I know that by Medieval the AI value luxuries around 9 gold per turn. That stays stable for a long time from me to them, but buying a luxury from them is quite a bit more costly. Buying their last copy of a luxury is always more expensive, and something has changed recently where they will no longer happily even swap their last copy of something for my last copy of a different thing.

I know that any time they put in 3 of a Strategic, I can probably drop it to 1 and they'll accept the deal. I know I can sell 1 strategic for 3 gold per turn on average.

I use these values to construct a price when I put something in the window and say, "What do you want for this?" The problem is they don't always tell me when they won't trade something no matter what, so I end up needing to offer ridiculous trades of 300 gold per turn to confirm that they indeed will not offer it at any price. Then, if they will take it for some price, I have to spend five minutes narrowing down exactly what that price is (as if you highly over-offer they tend to say "Sure but it's not fair to you!") and if that price is worth it to me.

Displaying the numbers won't give me information I can't access. It will just make gathering that information faster and less frustrating. It will also make trading with the AI on an efficient level more accessible to people with less playtime. The how of it, though, that seems like a difficult issue to tackle, and I don't know what to tell you if the values don't stay consistent. They seem consistent to me, to an extent, but I'm only comparing like to like.

I agree with you on one hand, however - as I said - the fluctuating nature of the model is tough to 'pin down' easily. I could, for example, simply expose the 'deal value' of the AI (i.e the +/- value of the deal in the AI's eyes, as it stands). That could be gamed a bit, but how much that matters to players (versus the convenience of the model) is up to you all, I guess. Locking it behind embassies, or perhaps even DoF, could be a method of dealing with this. Or we can just let it exist. :)

G
 
We already use suddenly dropping values to watch for deceptiveness. It's why I play with Transparent Diplomacy. There's no reason not to. The alternative is an annoying, time consuming flip through all the supposedly-friendly AI every 5 turns to see who is undervaluing luxuries. The information is always available for every AI you have met, just the method for displaying it is arcane and annoying.

There absolutely is a reason to play without Transparent-its anti-immersive. The alternative isn't your scenario, the alternative is allowing yourself to be surprised and caught somewhat off-guard by the AI's machinations that particular game. I've never once done that trade-test and I never will. It's one thing to get an idea from normal trade behavior, but I'm very against the idea of the game straight letting me know who is about to betray me.
 
There absolutely is a reason to play without Transparent-its anti-immersive. The alternative isn't your scenario, the alternative is allowing yourself to be surprised and caught somewhat off-guard by the AI's machinations that particular game. I've never once done that trade-test and I never will. It's one thing to get an idea from normal trade behavior, but I'm very against the idea of the game straight letting me know who is about to betray me.

This is why it should be an option, just like Transparent Diplomacy is an option. The information is there for you to tease out (plenty of other signs beyond the trade test, that's more confirmation than anything), but is not tossed in your face. The people who like the RP aspects and don't want that information made more obvious leave it off. The folks playing for the mechanical side can turn it on and shave an hour or two of futzing with the trade UI off of each game.

I agree with you on one hand, however - as I said - the fluctuating nature of the model is tough to 'pin down' easily. I could, for example, simply expose the 'deal value' of the AI (i.e the +/- value of the deal in the AI's eyes, as it stands). That could be gamed a bit, but how much that matters to players (versus the convenience of the model) is up to you all, I guess. Locking it behind embassies, or perhaps even DoF, could be a method of dealing with this. Or we can just let it exist. :)

G

I don't see a harm in allowing it as a game set-up option to test it out, if that's possible. Behind Embassy makes sense, as those are what allow for easy treaties and communication.
 
Situations like this drive me mad. I need that Gold for four cities and a city-state. I'm offering him the friggin world here. He won't trade it.
Spoiler :
 
Situations like this drive me mad. I need that Gold for four cities and a city-state. I'm offering him the friggin world here. He won't trade it.
Spoiler :

Ah, this reminds me of the days of Civ 4 when the AI sometimes wouldn't trade you something... but it would generally flat out tell you why. My personal favorite was "We will never trade with you, our worst enemy!" Others were almost that clear - "We'd rather win the game, thank you very much!" meant that AI was going for a victory condition related to the item you wanted - like if it wouldn't sell space race techs, then it's going for space race.

In civ 5, often the AI has a perfectly valid reason for not selling you something, but it just won't tell you. This is fine if say... the AI is secretly planning to attack you, but it seems strange when the AI is blantly not trading something for a clear reason and it can't just flat out say so (ex: genuine friendly AI can refuse to sell open borders even for becoming their vassal and half your cities, because you're about to win cultural victory).

I've also never liked how "Deceptive" worked. I was first made aware of "deceptive" when I first played against JFD's Hitler. The Fuhrer happened to be my next door neighbor and was "friendly" soon after meeting him. Then out of nowhere, he declared war and not long after, peace. The very next turn... "friendly". :p While most civs aren't as blatant as that, it's usually easy to tell fake friendly from real friendly. At the very least there should be a "fake neutral" to make it less obvious.
 
Situations like this drive me mad. I need that Gold for four cities and a city-state. I'm offering him the friggin world here. He won't trade it.
Spoiler :

See, this makes me mad, too - but not because the AI won't trade it. It's because it's inconvenient for me.

Let me explain that.

When there's extra Luxury Resources involved, it makes sense to trade one-for-one. But, if it's the AI's (or my) last Luxury Resource, the rules change. There's probably 3 elements to the trade at that point.

1. You need the standard trade so both people are getting something.
2. Then the person trading away their last edition of something needs an extra one so they get a benefit from the trade.
3. And finally, you wouldn't be asking for the last Luxury unless you really needed it for something in particular - like WLTKD or a CS Quest.

Thus, for the last copy of a Luxury a player has, it makes sense that three should be coming from the other side. Now, from what you've described PurpleMentat from all the benefits you'd be getting, I'd honestly say that the trade you show in the picture actually isn't worth the deal for the AI. True, the AI or another Human player really wouldn't "know" all the factors going into your request - but from a baseline benefit-VS-cost perspective, I'd say that your offer in fact isn't enough to justify the trade.

But this goes to the heart of my point, which is why *I* don't like the current trade system with the AI: it's because the AI bases its trades on how much it likes you, and not actual cost-effect. For example, I will never give money to Russia for any reason: it's not about whether I like Russia, but simply because I know money is going to end up being used to purchase tiles, which generate Science. It is a competitive game, and I have these factors in mind.

On the other hand, when it comes to trading something like Gold or Gems, then all other things being equal, I just don't care how much I like or dislike someone, and understand why this is even a factor for trade: a fair price is a fair price, and at the end of the day, if the AI can charge me an unfair price and expect me to pay it, why can't I do the same to them? I don't appreciate the double-standard.

Yes, I realize that the AI logic for this would probably be impossible, but I say this more to offer a direction than an absolute plan. What we currently have just often strikes me as silly.



Anyways, at the end of the day: I agree with PurpleMentat. It would be nice to have as an OPTION all the factors involved so that you don't need to d!ck around with how much you think the payment is supposed to be. If you don't want that, just turn the option off. Done.




EDIT: For Wario - I think your statement of "the AI in Civ 5 won't tell you why" is only a half-truth. Unfortunately, I think the Civ 5 AI is much stupider than we give it credit for...as an example, even if an AI isn't planning on a space race, you just DON'T go selling space race technology for the simple reason that someone else could win the space race before you win your culture race: we need more preventative measures.
 
Now, from what you've described PurpleMentat from all the benefits you'd be getting, I'd honestly say that the trade you show in the picture actually isn't worth the deal for the AI. True, the AI or another Human player really wouldn't "know" all the factors going into your request - but from a baseline benefit-VS-cost perspective, I'd say that your offer in fact isn't enough to justify the trade.

The issue isn't that the AI doesn't think it's being offered enough, but the fact that the AI, for no given reason, is refusing to trade the item at all. If the AI countered by demanding 300 GPT and 2 cities, that would make more sense.

But this goes to the heart of my point, which is why *I* don't like the current trade system with the AI: it's because the AI bases its trades on how much it likes you, and not actual cost-effect. For example, I will never give money to Russia for any reason: it's not about whether I like Russia, but simply because I know money is going to end up being used to purchase tiles, which generate Science. It is a competitive game, and I have these factors in mind.

Well, logically, this is like charging honor students more for the same textbooks since they will learn more than the remedial students, or charging industrial sectors more for energy than residential since the former will earn profit on it.

The cost-effect principle ignores supply and demand, which realistically should have more of an effect on prices. For example: say I have a total monopoly (ie, I own every last one!) on Iron. I should be able to get away with charging far more than usual, because it's either by from me or do without. That's the whole point of a monopoly - and I wouldn't be surprised if Gazebo said that strategic/global monopolies already do increase the AI charges/pays.

On the other hand, when it comes to trading something like Gold or Gems, then all other things being equal, I just don't care how much I like or dislike someone, and understand why this is even a factor for trade: a fair price is a fair price, and at the end of the day, if the AI can charge me an unfair price and expect me to pay it, why can't I do the same to them? I don't appreciate the double-standard.

The fact is what civs like you and don't has a drastic effect on the game. With my iron scenario above, if my "BFFs since turn 2" neighbor wants iron, I would sell it for far less than usual, (or even outright give it away!) because that iron is likely to be used against their enemies (who are likely also my enemies) and very unlikely to be used against me. Even if they backstabbed me, they'd lose their iron the moment they did so. Meanwhile, I have actually rejected an offer of 778 GPT and a ton of luxuries for a near useless city, because I didn't trust the civ making the offer not to declare war to get out of paying and/or use the city as a staging point in an invasion against me.

EDIT: For Wario - I think your statement of "the AI in Civ 5 won't tell you why" is only a half-truth. Unfortunately, I think the Civ 5 AI is much stupider than we give it credit for...as an example, even if an AI isn't planning on a space race, you just DON'T go selling space race technology for the simple reason that someone else could win the space race before you win your culture race: we need more preventative measures.

Right now, if you're close to winning a cultural victory, only the civs that actually have a chance of stopping you will refuse open borders. The civs badly losing generally won't care (although they will still vote down "Passport system" with everything they've got, because that's something they can effect). This makes sense, because what's the point of denying yourself GPT when the winning civ is so far past "dominant" it's absurd?

So... if the civ you're selling the tech to doesn't have anywhere near the economic or industrial infrastructure to win the space race before your tourism/un vote/last capital comes in, then you might as well sell. But of course you're still voting them down if they try to repeal "Spaceflight Regulations".
 
The issue isn't that the AI doesn't think it's being offered enough, but the fact that the AI, for no given reason, is refusing to trade the item at all. If the AI countered by demanding 300 GPT and 2 cities, that would make more sense.

This is a fair statement.


Well, logically, this is like charging honor students more for the same textbooks since they will learn more than the remedial students, or charging industrial sectors more for energy than residential since the former will earn profit on it.

The cost-effect principle ignores supply and demand, which realistically should have more of an effect on prices. For example: say I have a total monopoly (ie, I own every last one!) on Iron. I should be able to get away with charging far more than usual, because it's either by from me or do without. That's the whole point of a monopoly - and I wouldn't be surprised if Gazebo said that strategic/global monopolies already do increase the AI charges/pays.

I think that the learning example is an odd one, so I'll just stick with the Monopoly example.

I have two issues with the Monopoly examples.

1. When it comes to Luxury Monopolies, they're just too easy to get. I just don't like the fact that 6 Copper start all near one another and it takes me only two cities to acquire the Monopoly - in the real world, Copper is deposited in chunks, yes - but many chunks, not just one.

2. The thing is that I usually CAN do without Iron/Horses most of the time, and I'd argue that precisely for that reason, your monopoly because worth less, and not more. I will simply give you nothing and laugh at you while you have all these extra resources sitting around that you can't use. It doesn't matter, anyways, because the AIs don't think in your terms and aren't willing to pay more for your resources even if you're the only one who has them - though they will pay something.


The fact is what civs like you and don't has a drastic effect on the game. With my iron scenario above, if my "BFFs since turn 2" neighbor wants iron, I would sell it for far less than usual, (or even outright give it away!) because that iron is likely to be used against their enemies (who are likely also my enemies) and very unlikely to be used against me. Even if they backstabbed me, they'd lose their iron the moment they did so. Meanwhile, I have actually rejected an offer of 778 GPT and a ton of luxuries for a near useless city, because I didn't trust the civ making the offer not to declare war to get out of paying and/or use the city as a staging point in an invasion against me.

I'm not talking about Iron or City Trading, though, I'm just talking about one-for-one Luxuries. I have a hard time thinking of any reason why even the Civs who hate each other more than anything else in the world couldn't agree to a one-to-one Luxury trade.


Right now, if you're close to winning a cultural victory, only the civs that actually have a chance of stopping you will refuse open borders.

I have never, ever, seen them do this. I'm usually laughing throughout the whole game as I happily give Open Borders away to share all my Tourism. My more sincere concern is that if one wanted to stop a Culture Victory most of the time, it's too easy instead of too hard, thru a simple war declaration.


The civs badly losing generally won't care (although they will still vote down "Passport system" with everything they've got, because that's something they can effect). This makes sense, because what's the point of denying yourself GPT when the winning civ is so far past "dominant" it's absurd?

I think this is a bad argument. I've won games (not necessarily Civ) while losing badly because I fought tooth nail and claw to prevent anyone from winning, only to take advantage of a situation when it presented itself and claim victory (e.g. finishing off a specific player's Capital when he owns everybody else's). I understand that Human players can become demoralized, but there's no reason that an AI should be so.


So... if the civ you're selling the tech to doesn't have anywhere near the economic or industrial infrastructure to win the space race before your tourism/un vote/last capital comes in, then you might as well sell. But of course you're still voting them down if they try to repeal "Spaceflight Regulations".

Still dangerous, as other players can use Espionage to steal it. Not as swift as trading, true, but if you're in the lead by a fair margin, why take the risk?
 
When it comes to Luxury Monopolies, they're just too easy to get. I just don't like the fact that 6 Copper start all near one another and it takes me only two cities to acquire the Monopoly - in the real world, Copper is deposited in chunks, yes - but many chunks, not just one.

I agree, although I think this is done for game balance. CBP IMO is already too biased toward "wide" play (most likely a side effect of vanilla bias against "wide"). If recourses were spaced more realistically, it would favor "wide" even more.

The thing is that I usually CAN do without Iron/Horses most of the time, and I'd argue that precisely for that reason, your monopoly because worth less, and not more. I will simply give you nothing and laugh at you while you have all these extra resources sitting around that you can't use. It doesn't matter, anyways, because the AIs don't think in your terms and aren't willing to pay more for your resources even if you're the only one who has them - though they will pay something.
Ah, but I could sell them to everyone except YOU, and thus leave you with a severe competitive disadvantage. I also noticed how you singled out two specific resources, implying that if the recourse were say... oil or uranium, you'd be doomed. :nuke:

I'm not talking about Iron or City Trading, though, I'm just talking about one-for-one Luxuries. I have a hard time thinking of any reason why even the Civs who hate each other more than anything else in the world couldn't agree to a one-to-one Luxury trade.
Civ A has just about every "green text" there is with you.
Civ B doesn't care much about you one way or the other.
Civ C is your mortal enemy. They are just a wall of red text.

You need a luxury and all three civs have an extra copy of it, while you have a copy of a recourse that none of them have. If they all charge the same price, you're going to trade with Civ A. Civ A is less likely to declare war and make you lose the luxury you need than the others, and the extra happiness is less likely yo be used against you. All other things being equal, you'd rather deal with your allies.

Now, same scenario, except Civ A and Civ B don't have the luxury you need and Civ C has 3 copies. Civ C is your only option. They aren't going to be fair, because they have other possible customers that are far less likely to backstab them. Unless they are also in desperate need of the luxury you have and they also can't get it elsewhere, they should just sell to Civ B (and possibly Civ A if their assumed DoF with you doesn't spoil their relations). If they do sell to you, it only makes sense that they'd want to charge extra to cover the risk.

However, if Civ C approaches YOU for a trade, then it makes sense that the tables should be turned - they should expect to pay YOU more, since you're the one taking on the extra risk when you could sell (assuming the trade isn't a DoF offer). The AI currently does not do this - "Hostile" Civs will keep offering you "Accept Embassy" for a luxury. :crazyeye:

However, you are completely correct in a specific scenario - monopoly selling to monopsony. If Civ A and Civ B have exactly 1 of the resource you need and Civ C has 2, then (assuming Civ A and B are unwilling to sell their lone resource) Civ C is your only option... but you're their only option as well, as they have no other civs to sell to. You're both taking equal risks and you both have no other options. Logic would dictate an even trade regardless of your feelings about each other (and no, the AI doesn't take this into account either). :confused:

I have never, ever, seen them do this. I'm usually laughing throughout the whole game as I happily give Open Borders away to share all my Tourism. My more sincere concern is that if one wanted to stop a Culture Victory most of the time, it's too easy instead of too hard, thru a simple war declaration.

Really? Every single time for me, high culture civs will start refusing open borders the moment they realize I'm going for cultural victory, and will continue to do so (even if we have a DoF and defensive pact in place) until my tourism overtakes their culture.

But I agree about the war declaration. In my most recent game, the highest culture AI simply refused to make peace with me thus denying me the trade route bonus or a diploma. Granted, it was because of a bug (the AI would keep offering me peace yet refuse their own offer) but what's stopping me from doing that trick to an AI trying to win by culture? In the end, I did win, but only by eliminating the offending civ, which really isn't a cultural thing to do.


I think this is a bad argument. I've won games (not necessarily Civ) while losing badly because I fought tooth nail and claw to prevent anyone from winning, only to take advantage of a situation when it presented itself and claim victory (e.g. finishing off a specific player's Capital when he owns everybody else's). I understand that Human players can become demoralized, but there's no reason that an AI should be so.

This wasn't actually about being demoralized. If an AI trying to win by cultural is "Dominant" over you (ie - the rank past "Influential") there is little point in denying them open borders, because you can't really make a cultural comeback. What you CAN do is use the extra GPT from accepting open borders and try to win another victory condition before they overtake the other high culture civs. The AI actually DO this already.


Still dangerous, as other players can use Espionage to steal it. Not as swift as trading, true, but if you're in the lead by a fair margin, why take the risk?
Ehh... usually the AI never plants spies on me if I'm losing, so it likely treats other AIs the same way. If they're going to steal the tech in that scenario, they'll steal it from me, not the loosing civ I sold it to.
 
I agree, although I think this is done for game balance. CBP IMO is already too biased toward "wide" play (most likely a side effect of vanilla bias against "wide"). If recourses were spaced more realistically, it would favor "wide" even more.

Okay the wide-play comment as relating to balance I can accept.


Ah, but I could sell them to everyone except YOU, and thus leave you with a severe competitive disadvantage. I also noticed how you singled out two specific resources, implying that if the recourse were say... oil or uranium, you'd be doomed.

Thus far, my experience with Oil is that it's so superabundant that I've never been able to use all of it, and I've basically never found a use for Uranium at all. Far from doomed.


You need a luxury and all three civs have an extra copy of it, while you have a copy of a recourse that none of them have. If they all charge the same price, you're going to trade with Civ A. Civ A is less likely to declare war and make you lose the luxury you need than the others, and the extra happiness is less likely yo be used against you. All other things being equal, you'd rather deal with your allies.

Now, same scenario, except Civ A and Civ B don't have the luxury you need and Civ C has 3 copies. Civ C is your only option. They aren't going to be fair, because they have other possible customers that are far less likely to backstab them. Unless they are also in desperate need of the luxury you have and they also can't get it elsewhere, they should just sell to Civ B (and possibly Civ A if their assumed DoF with you doesn't spoil their relations). If they do sell to you, it only makes sense that they'd want to charge extra to cover the risk.

I agree that I'll approach a friend before an enemy, but for the rest, I just don't agree with your example.

1. What difference does it make if they backstab me? I get the resources back on the spot anyways, and Luxury resources don't offer combat benefits like Horses/Iron.

2. Thus there is no risk - this isn't a factor for Luxury resources.

I don't know what more I can add, here. Okay, sure, trade with your friends first, but if you still have extra, I'm willing to trade. Yes, I might backstab you, but who cares?


Really? Every single time for me, high culture civs will start refusing open borders the moment they realize I'm going for cultural victory, and will continue to do so (even if we have a DoF and defensive pact in place) until my tourism overtakes their culture.

Is this a long-term experience for you, or within the last couple of updates for the patch? This is besides the point that even if I don't have any opponents going for Cultural Victories, they shouldn't be haphazardly taking my Open Borders in the first place, because they could be slowing my Cultural Victory while going for another kind of victory instead.


But I agree about the war declaration. In my most recent game, the highest culture AI simply refused to make peace with me thus denying me the trade route bonus or a diploma. Granted, it was because of a bug (the AI would keep offering me peace yet refuse their own offer) but what's stopping me from doing that trick to an AI trying to win by culture? In the end, I did win, but only by eliminating the offending civ, which really isn't a cultural thing to do.

I think this comment just lends itself to the fact that I think the way Cultural Victory works is weird and not particularly intuitive. The bonuses needed to make a Cultural Victory work well are too focused in a Social Policy that doubles Tourism from certain kinds of bonuses, and all bonuses are cancelled by a click of a button in most cases. No other victory type is so easy to deal with as this one. I DO expect that combat will inevitably play a part in any of them, but it ought to be more subtle than wiping a player off the map.


This wasn't actually about being demoralized. If an AI trying to win by cultural is "Dominant" over you (ie - the rank past "Influential") there is little point in denying them open borders, because you can't really make a cultural comeback. What you CAN do is use the extra GPT from accepting open borders and try to win another victory condition before they overtake the other high culture civs. The AI actually DO this already.

Ohhhh, I see what you mean now. Sorry, my bad. :)


Ehh... usually the AI never plants spies on me if I'm losing, so it likely treats other AIs the same way. If they're going to steal the tech in that scenario, they'll steal it from me, not the loosing civ I sold it to.

The logic of this statement is therefore that a winning AI never plants spies on anyone? This doesn't make sense.
 
Thus far, my experience with Oil is that it's so superabundant that I've never been able to use all of it, and I've basically never found a use for Uranium at all. Far from doomed.
If that's the case, then it sounds like the problem is with the resources themselves, not the trading system.


1.What difference does it make if they backstab me? I get the resources back on the spot anyways, and Luxury resources don't offer combat benefits like Horses/Iron.

2. Thus there is no risk - this isn't a factor for Luxury resources.

I don't know what more I can add, here. Okay, sure, trade with your friends first, but if you still have extra, I'm willing to trade. Yes, I might backstab you, but who cares?

It depends on the situation. If a luxury is the only thing saving you from -20 happiness, then I really don't want my fate in my enemy's hands unless I have no other choice (they Declare war, now I'm fighting my enemies AND rebels!). It's quite a different situation if you've already traded with all your friends and still have extra left over.

My point is that there are situations in which making one to one trades with your enemies is fine, but there are situations in which you really should charge extra.

Is this a long-term experience for you, or within the last couple of updates for the patch? This is besides the point that even if I don't have any opponents going for Cultural Victories, they shouldn't be haphazardly taking my Open Borders in the first place, because they could be slowing my Cultural Victory while going for another kind of victory instead.

In theory, the AIs are set to try and stop open borders to prevent you getting clutural victory, but only if they actually have enough culture to stop you, regardless of what victory they themselves are going for. In practise, only AIs actually going for cultural victory will have enough culture to stop you.

I also think it's been this way a while, although the behavior is more pronounced recently.

I think this comment just lends itself to the fact that I think the way Cultural Victory works is weird and not particularly intuitive. The bonuses needed to make a Cultural Victory work well are too focused in a Social Policy that doubles Tourism from certain kinds of bonuses, and all bonuses are cancelled by a click of a button in most cases. No other victory type is so easy to deal with as this one. I DO expect that combat will inevitably play a part in any of them, but it ought to be more subtle than wiping a player off the map.

Yes, Cultural Victory does work strangely. You basically must gather tourism bonuses from near the start of the game to stand a chance. For any other victory, this isn't necessary. Too hated to win by diplomacy? Build a spaceship. Rich and high tech, but lack of hammers and spaceship regulations making the spaceship tough? Smash those capitals with Giant Death Robots. But you pretty much have to designate yourself as going for clutural from the start to win one.

It's also strange that you can win clutural victory quite early if no one else goes for it, while Space Race and Diplomacy will take a while, no matter what. If you become far ahead in culture early, you can actually win. You can also [theoretically] win by domination by taking the last capital in 1000 AD. But even if you're two ages ahead in tech, you're still waiting for the ship. Even if you have every last city state as your ally, you're still waiting for the UN.

The logic of this statement is therefore that a winning AI never plants spies on anyone? This doesn't make sense.

No one is going to spy on a civ that has 2 cities in 2010 AD. You'll want your spies in civs that are actually competitive. That's what I actually meant by "winning", sorry for the confusion. So, selling tech to such a civ isn't much of a risk. Unless you allow tech brokering, in which case you might not want to sell them at all.
 
Gazebo, if I did want to add that deal value to my game, could you tell me the coding that I'd need to do so? I agree with the earlier discussion in this thread; I'd much rather the AI simply tell me that they're willing to pay 6gpt for my luxury than me starting at 10gpt, getting declined. Then going to 9, get declined again. Then 8, then 7. That really does happen in pretty much every trade for me, and it's understandably tedious/annoying.
 
The consequence of this for me is that I just stop trading halfway into the game

Exactly what I do. If there were an option to automatically reject every trade the AI offers, I'd love it. It's just annoying every couple turns having 3 or 4 AIs offer a ridiculously unbalanced trade (1gpt for 10 iron, say) or a trade I'd be happy to do but having to trial-and-error 5 or 6 trades to find out what the AI will give me.

Once the money isn't crucial I'm a lot happier ignoring the trade system altogether since the AIs won't sell anything for less than a fortune and will rarely offer more than a pittance, and it takes a ton of trial and error to find the rare fair deal.
 
Exactly what I do. If there were an option to automatically reject every trade the AI offers, I'd love it. It's just annoying every couple turns having 3 or 4 AIs offer a ridiculously unbalanced trade (1gpt for 10 iron, say) or a trade I'd be happy to do but having to trial-and-error 5 or 6 trades to find out what the AI will give me.

Once the money isn't crucial I'm a lot happier ignoring the trade system altogether since the AIs won't sell anything for less than a fortune and will rarely offer more than a pittance, and it takes a ton of trial and error to find the rare fair deal.

You can Esc out of deals, that's at least pretty fast.
 
Gazebo, if I did want to add that deal value to my game, could you tell me the coding that I'd need to do so? I agree with the earlier discussion in this thread; I'd much rather the AI simply tell me that they're willing to pay 6gpt for my luxury than me starting at 10gpt, getting declined. Then going to 9, get declined again. Then 8, then 7. That really does happen in pretty much every trade for me, and it's understandably tedious/annoying.

Does anyone else know how to do this? Doesn't appear that I'll be getting a response from Gazebo
 
Does anyone else know how to do this? Doesn't appear that I'll be getting a response from Gazebo

If you have a request, use github. Sticking requests in someone else's thread is a good way to have them be overlooked. Also, not super nice to assume I'm ignoring you after a day, especially during the holidays.

Unless you know how to expose DLL functions to Lua, you can't add the information you want to the game. Furthermore, the information you want is amorphous and doesn't really exist in the game functionality. Not without some work. It's not really a tenable request.
 
If you have a request, use github. Sticking requests in someone else's thread is a good way to have them be overlooked. Also, not super nice to assume I'm ignoring you after a day, especially during the holidays.

Unless you know how to expose DLL functions to Lua, you can't add the information you want to the game. Furthermore, the information you want is amorphous and doesn't really exist in the game functionality. Not without some work. It's not really a tenable request.

Fair enough, but I saw that you were active in some of the threads but hadn't chimed back in for that one, so I figured that you weren't going to. Offense wasn't intended, though.I thought of PM-ing you (will use github from now on) but figured I'd post it in here since this thread was more or less about the same thing.

Someone (I think it may have been you) helped instruct me on how to merge the DLLs fom two mods here 2-3 ago, but that's the end of my modding experience with this game. Would exposing DLL functions to Lua be a similar process? In difficulty if not step-for-step?
 
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