Sounds like a compromise just for the sake of finding a compromise, who would this cater to exactly?
Request, AI trading.
- Thread starter Funak
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Sounds like a compromise just for the sake of finding a compromise, who would this cater to exactly?
PurpleMentat
Videographer
I really like this idea. Let our friends and allies tell us exactly what they want and how much they'll pay for it. I know the system will be abusable, but there is still a strict limit to what the player can get, and it's better than having it ignored entirely.
Why? Friends and allies already pay you more for your resources. This is a problem for all trade, not just trades between friends.
PurpleMentat
Videographer
Simply because limiting it makes it easier for people to swallow. I'm for showing the numbers for all trades all the time, but if it needs limiting then I like DoF
Well, the counter doesn't necessarily mean getting even more from trade. It partly is so, but that's not the point. I think the point here is a compromise for both those who'd like to have a more transparent trading system, and those who'd like to have some flavour to it. I think it is supposed to be obscure in some way, otherwise it'd be too trivial and possibly exploitable. Being able get the most profit for yourself in absolutely every trade situation with little effort doesn't appeal to me that much.
As I see it, it makes sense for your sworn friends to be open about how much exactly they want from a trade. You know, trust and all. Strangers and enemies, on the other hand, probably wouldn't want to open up to you like that for the purpose of cautiousness, pride, hostility - whatever. I know all this isn't the strongest argument as gameplay should be held superior to immersion (kind of), but I think what I'm saying translates into gameplay pretty alright as well.
For now I'm just going to cut the 'wiggle room' out. Thankfully I've got it fixed now so that it will be more rigid. Hopefully.
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Coilean
Warlord
I am in total agreement that optimizing your trade deals with the AI is currently in a very tedious and unfun place. I cannot imagine anyone enjoys the current method of starting at an unacceptable deal, and then decrementing it until the AI accepts.
Not to mention that it is not even possible to negotiate prices at all for some deals (especially Open Borders) which the AI will mysteriously reject saying it is impossible, only to equally mysteriously accept when you add 1-2 gpt. Either that, or the AI keeps adding in things you have no desire to trade whenever you try to alter the terms with "What would make this deal work?".
For me, I could give a pig's fart about the "realism" of making the AI's try get a favorable deal from the player when all it leads to is the unenjoyable tedium of decrementing counter offers; just have the AI's offer their max price all the time, so I can get on with my turn.
Not to mention that it is not even possible to negotiate prices at all for some deals (especially Open Borders) which the AI will mysteriously reject saying it is impossible, only to equally mysteriously accept when you add 1-2 gpt. Either that, or the AI keeps adding in things you have no desire to trade whenever you try to alter the terms with "What would make this deal work?".
For me, I could give a pig's fart about the "realism" of making the AI's try get a favorable deal from the player when all it leads to is the unenjoyable tedium of decrementing counter offers; just have the AI's offer their max price all the time, so I can get on with my turn.
Alas! I shouldn't have got excited before anything was confirmed.
I personally think that the deal value counter would let players maximise their gains just as effectively, while also allowing for a good amount of flexibility. It could also be tried out just for the sake of beta testing, possibly to bring out bugs/quirks/oddities associated with the system. Cutting the 'wiggle room' seems more like a last resort with no going back, because it will likely do the intended job and there won't be a need for a fix anymore.
PurpleMentat
Videographer
Back to mass experiments, carefully tracking results, to try to divine what various offerings are worth at different levels of diplomatic relation.
I like the new trading mechanics and that the AI actually offers something when you click on what will make this work.
One question and one suggestion.
1. Is it possible that the same system for peace deals could be used for trades? Just display the numbers. But if you don't want to do this, I understand.
2. When clicking on "What will make this deal work?" the thing I find NOT useful about it is that the AI always adds more stuff from you instead of decreasing your demand from it. I think it's important to do the latter, because the former is just about as good as having a button that doesn't work, as the AI inevitably asks you for things you don't want to trade, you need to remove them from the list, and then re-propose the original trade by modifying the deal on the AI's list.
With that in mind - is there a way for me to designate stuff I'm not willing to trade? It gets annoying to get messages from a dozen AI's every 5 turns, asking for my paper.
One question and one suggestion.
1. Is it possible that the same system for peace deals could be used for trades? Just display the numbers. But if you don't want to do this, I understand.
2. When clicking on "What will make this deal work?" the thing I find NOT useful about it is that the AI always adds more stuff from you instead of decreasing your demand from it. I think it's important to do the latter, because the former is just about as good as having a button that doesn't work, as the AI inevitably asks you for things you don't want to trade, you need to remove them from the list, and then re-propose the original trade by modifying the deal on the AI's list.
With that in mind - is there a way for me to designate stuff I'm not willing to trade? It gets annoying to get messages from a dozen AI's every 5 turns, asking for my paper.
PurpleMentat
Videographer
Avoid that by using it. If nothing else, queue up some diplomats after other production.
If I'm not using it there's a good reason for it, and one can be sure that I'll be using it within 50 turns - in any case, I don't want the AI to have it, and they'll have to pay much more than their "max value" to get it from me.
Ad for queuing - this doesn't strike me as a practical solution. :/ If the AI can designate what it refuses to trade, I want to do that, too. I'll just forgot what I queued and end up with a Diplomat I didn't want.
I like the peace deal counter and think the same counter should be an available option if people want to turn it on.
I know what you mean about it being 'gamey' but you're not actually gaining anything extra from the deal using a counter that couldn't be already got if you were to take the time to 'haggle' in 1 gold increments until the trigger amount is found.
A counter doesn't give the player an advantage, it just saves time and let's you get back to playing the game.
I know what you mean about it being 'gamey' but you're not actually gaining anything extra from the deal using a counter that couldn't be already got if you were to take the time to 'haggle' in 1 gold increments until the trigger amount is found.
A counter doesn't give the player an advantage, it just saves time and let's you get back to playing the game.
The problem with it, and the reason I'm probably not going to do it, is that there's no 'invisible wall' for trade deals, except what you and the AI have available. Unlike peace deals, where the AI has a fixed cap on the deal's potential value, there's no such thing for trade deals (as the max/min are based on the relative value of the deal).
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Is that such a problem, though? One can only have so much stuff to trade. Or do you mean it would cause trouble on the code level?
PurpleMentat
Videographer
It still comes down to 'am I willing to invest enough time to get what I want or find out it's more expensive than I'll pay.' Playing efficiently demands it, and the only thing stopping efficient trades is frustration factor at a clunky interface. Being able to accurately judge the value of the items we're putting on the table is a convenience and time saving factor. Instead of keeping notes on trades I've made in the past to try to divine the values of different items at different times, with it always coming back to GPT, I get an exact representation in-game.
Endless Legend has a good example of such a trade system at work. You can get a general idea of how much this trading partner values what you are offering and what you are asking for, based on whether the balance bar falls in your favor or theirs. There is even a diplomatic opinion boost for giving them trades in their favor, and they'll never agree to a trade that isn't at least even according to them. It is a much easier to use and more enjoyable trading system than the 'guess, and guess, and guess again' we get with Civ V.
Endless Legend has a good example of such a trade system at work. You can get a general idea of how much this trading partner values what you are offering and what you are asking for, based on whether the balance bar falls in your favor or theirs. There is even a diplomatic opinion boost for giving them trades in their favor, and they'll never agree to a trade that isn't at least even according to them. It is a much easier to use and more enjoyable trading system than the 'guess, and guess, and guess again' we get with Civ V.
One thing bothering me about the current way trading works is that the AI seems unable to change the quantity of items on the tradingboard. For example if you've added 2 gpt on one side and asks what could make the trade work, the AI will never change the 2 gpt, they will instead tell you that they don't have enough to offer a fair trade.
I like Endless Legend's system, but the deal AI in civ isn't as inflexible. For example, if you offer a luxury resource, the AI's valuation of that item returns as an integer (let's say 245). That translates into 2 gpt, roughly. But it also translates into a vote to censor Gandhi (worth 200), 1 Iron (225), 100 Gold (200), and so on... so the 'actual' value of the item is relative to what the AI has, and what you offer. There is no soft wall. Heck, I'm not even sure what numbers I would need to expose to lua to give the player meaningful information.
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PurpleMentat
Videographer
Okay, I think I'm understanding. Even if you had a DoF going, that Luxury isn't going to get you the vote and 10 gold, it's worth exactly a vote against Gandhi.
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