Request help. Attack the sleeping giant?

[automator]

I've attached the most recent game save (have 12 earlier saves) of a current game. I'm stuck.

Prince Game.
All victories but Domination available.
Current year 1965.
Playing as Ghengis Khan.

I feel like I've stuck myself in this game. Started nicely. I explored my island and found I shared it with only Hannibal. Hooked up horses and churned out four Keshiks, then kept pumping them out until Hannibal was gone. Kept three of his four cities. Populated rest of island. Founded Confusianism and stole Hinduism from Hannibal. Have both shrines. As I was researching Astrology, was visited by Alexander, who has his own island about the size of mine, then Shaka, Toku, Saladin and Ragnar, who all live on the largest island.

After reviewing my options (at the time I was the point leader ahead of Ragnar and Toku in that order), I decided to befriend Ragnar and Alex and make a first attack at Toku, knowning he'd eventually turn on me. After an unsuccessful first city attack (took city, lost it, took it again and razed it as punishment), I made a beach head. I continued and razed Kyoto and took Tokyo. Razing Kyoto was enough to push Toku into asking Saladin for a vassalage agreement, so Saladin declared on me. I was able to take one more city from Toku and then held on for dear life as Saladin threw himself at me. During this escapade, Alex cuts off all our trade agreements and declares on me. Also, Shaka, being opportunistic, declares on me as well. Finally declared peace.

This pretty much takes us to the attached save. Due to near constant war, I've fallen far behind in technologies, and have only been able to improve my situation by making liberal trades with Alex and Ragnar. I've been able to purchase Ragnar's affection, and he has shared war with Saladin, eventually bringing Saladin in as his Vassal.

Within a few turns, I'll be at tech parity. I have a pretty good foothold on the big island, which will be better after Flight is discovered. My home turf is mine (past attacks have been easy to beat off, though my sea creatures have been plundered more times than I can count). However, I'm behind enough in tech, and there are about 90 turns left, that I likely will not pull off a Space Win. With Ragnar and Saladin as the dominant power in the world (they wiped out Toku together), I don't stand a chance at finishing off Saladin, which was my planned next step. Shaka is quite remote, and his territory is small. Alex presents a challenge because of his size.

In this case, would you just hunker down for the next 90 turns and hope Ragnar doesn't edge you out for a win? Or would you risk it by going after Alex or Shaka in the hopes of securing a few more points to increase the lead against Ragnar?

Thanks for any input.

 

[cabert]

What victory conditions are open right now?
not domination, since you checked it out.

Conquest? looks really unlikely. It would require you to capitualte every enemy.
Cultural? You didn't mention it, so i assume it is out.
Space? You said yourself it was not an option, being too far in tech.
Diplomacy? It's probably the best option, if you manage to grow in size. This includes taking alex's biggest cities, or better all his cities. You're certainly fighting an uphill battle but if you don't do it, you won't grow enough. Spreading religions doesn't win you anything on the diplomatic front this late (free religion everywhere). But you need to beeline to mass media and work biologically powered farms.
Time? Except the small fact that this isn't a real victory IMHO, it is the only other option you have. How could you achieve it?
- preventing every AI to launch. 90 turns is a lot. I know it takes me less than 40 turns after Apollo to launch. Do AIs already have apollo? If the answer is yes, you will have a really hard time here. The only solution being to kill/capitulate those space flyers, since you won't have the money to pay for spies.
- growing in score = growing in population and culture. It's easier to outgrow culturally your neighbours than to outtech them. Mostly because they run the tech race and not the culture race .
If no AI has the apollo program yet, you can try time victory.
Build a massive army, to deter attacks and watch how they fight each other (if you can pay one to attack another, do it) while you grow in pop, and outculture them.

edit : if you don't attack Alex, try to fight his enemy asap. Shaka is small = weak, he should be everyone's target.

 

[automator]

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to slog through the end game today.

As for culture, I've never bothered with that condition. I build a culture building if it keeps my people happy and they need happiness.

I was hoping for a diplo victory too. If I were to guess, however, Ragnar and Saladin would vote for Ragnar. Shaka would abstain. I'd vote for myself. If Alex abstained, nothing would happen. If Alex voted for me, nothing would happen. If Alex voted for Ragnar, Ragnar would win.

The whole world is pretty far behind in tech. I mean, it's the '60s, and tanks JUST showed up. Sure, the AI will probably be finishing their Apollos at the start of the 21st century, but I don't consider that to be an issue. Maybe if I find I have aluminum, then I'll go for a spaceship build.

Attack on alex to commence soon. I kinda got a kick from making landfall on Toku, having no idea what to expect and taking a chunk out of him. This'll be the same, but harder.

 

[JackOfClubs]

Time? Except the small fact that this isn't a real victory IMHO, it is the only other option you have.

I disagree. The time victory is the only one that approximates the cultural victory from Civ III which was my favorite type.

In a recent game I was trying for a culture win on Emperor, but I couldn't get my third city above 48000. At the last minute (around 2030, I think) I suggested a permanent alliance with Frederick and that boosted my/our score from second to first place and we cruised. One for the coolest victories I've ever achieved.

That probably isn't an option in this case, but hanging in there till the bitter end is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[automator]

Ugh.

Lost.

Waited until I finished with Industrialism, built a handful of tanks (my capitol was powered up to give me Level 4 tanks one per turn) and sent them to Shaka. Wiped Shaka out in about 10 turns. By this time, there were only 40 or so turns left. Brought Alex into my war for kicks. Made a DP with him after Shaka was gone. My score was 300 away from Ragnar.

Ragnar would not make a DP with me.

Alex would not make a PA with me. In fact, PA was not even listed. I don't mean it was there but in red, I mean, It wasn't there. Both of us had both Facism and Communism. Neither of us were in a PA, Vassal or War situation. But PA wasn't on there? Any reason why not? Is PA not available in Warlords with the patch? If Alex had agreed to a PA, we would've won a score victory, as Ragnar's spaceship was still a couple parts short at 2050, and my score plus Alex's score would've been about 90% higher than Alex's score.

But I too hate the time win. Usually, If I can't see myself winning any other way, I'll retire. Then again, that was pre-Warlords Patch.

 

[Stylesjl]

PA has to be enabled in the "Custom Game" feature at the start. By default it is disabled

 

[cabert]

Ugh.

Lost.

Waited until I finished with Industrialism, built a handful of tanks (my capitol was powered up to give me Level 4 tanks one per turn) and sent them to Shaka. Wiped Shaka out in about 10 turns. By this time, there were only 40 or so turns left. Brought Alex into my war for kicks. Made a DP with him after Shaka was gone. My score was 300 away from Ragnar.

waiting is never a good option, when you only have 90 turns to go...

Ragnar would not make a DP with me.

what good would it do?

Alex would not make a PA with me. In fact, PA was not even listed. I don't mean it was there but in red, I mean, It wasn't there. Both of us had both Facism and Communism. Neither of us were in a PA, Vassal or War situation. But PA wasn't on there? Any reason why not? Is PA not available in Warlords with the patch? If Alex had agreed to a PA, we would've won a score victory, as Ragnar's spaceship was still a couple parts short at 2050, and my score plus Alex's score would've been about 90% higher than Alex's score.

If PA were possible in your game, it's very possible that ragnar had gone on a permanent allince of his own, making you lose anyway.

But I too hate the time win. Usually, If I can't see myself winning any other way, I'll retire. Then again, that was pre-Warlords Patch.

Hum.
I don't like time victory, but if I have no other way, I still go for it.

Here you could have won a time victory only by attacking Alex, like I said before. It's always good to have a little more land, so shaka was a good target. But it was not enough, which was clear from what you aid earlier.

Edit : I have 1 time victory in my vanilla HoF! No way to conquer enough on the archipelago map, and no risk for space...

 

[Lucky Charms]

A little tidbit of information; in the Realms Beyond Adventure 11, Sulla discovered in the coding of Alexander that he will never, ever accept a permanent alliance, it is impossible.

Anyways, I will try the game later, it sounds interesting.

 

[automator]

PA has to be enabled in the "Custom Game" feature at the start. By default it is disabled

That's probably it ... no wonder I haven't had PA available since I installed Warlords. Forgot that PA was an option -- I was used to my custom games always having the same options ... culture flip on, PAs on, aggressive AI on ...

waiting is never a good option, when you only have 90 turns to go...

But attacking with a stack of Riflemen in 1970 isn't a good option either. It was either attack early and be crushed or attack later and win.

My hope was a DP with Ragnar would more so ingratiate me to him for a PA (which apparently wasn't turned on in game options). We'd been buddies the whole game, sharing wars, trading like mad ...

 

[cabert]

But attacking with a stack of Riflemen in 1970 isn't a good option either. It was either attack early and be crushed or attack later and win.

attacking shaka with a big stack of riflemen would probably have done the trick, giving you more time to take out alex

 

[futurehermit]

sounds to me like the game was lost much earlier than you think. you had domination turned *off* yet, you attacked the only civ you shared a continent with? imho instead of attacking him, you should have made a buddy out of him, tech-trading like crazy while beelining to optics. once you met the other civs *then* you could've put the knife in the back to secure your continent. you probably would've been better off in tech and thus able to keep up with the other continent.

my .02$

 

[Welnic]

If you are on an island with just one other civ they won't trade techs because they consider they have a monopoly on any techs they know. Except for Mansa Musa who will trade anyway.

 

[wioneo]

Capitulating the world in 90 turns is possible, by the way. Then again, I always have 30 or so obsolete units to upgrade... I have also never used tanks, do they get a city attack malus like in the World War II scenario? I always mean to check, but forget...

Civ 4 scenarios should be available in Warlords, by the way.