Research for Sandris units: GREEK
- Thread starter Yang Liu
- Start date
I still use the odd Kryten hoplite, although slowly they're getting replaced -- and I imagine they'll all get replaced in this next pack! We've already got a Sandrisian Spartiate (several, actually), and distinguishing between a "Citizen" Hoplite, "Allied" Hoplite, "Mercenary" Hoplite & "Subjugated" Hoplite won't be a big deal in terms of nationalities -- shield designs aren't an issue here. It's only the Theban hoplite & Sacred Band that have that issue.
What I really appreciate about Kryten's units is his insistence that the Greeks were primarily spearmen, not swordsmen. I strongly encourage Sandris not to make a Classical Greek "Swordsman." Rather, I think it would make more sense to have a Hoplite who has uses his sword as a secondary attack animation after his spear shatters. That, and the spear attack animation should be overhand, not underhand, as that would permit the phalanx formation to better hold together as a shield wall. (I think Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire advocated the overhand thrust, though not exactly a scholarly source; another non-scholarly source, Nikolas Lloyd disagrees, but I'm unconvinced by his arguments -- he does, however, agree with the lack of 'swordsmen' in classical Greece; he claims that there is no word for "swordsman" in ancient Greek!) A sword armed Hypapsist might be a nice option, though, even though it's unclear if Hypapsists were swordsmen.
What I really appreciate about Kryten's units is his insistence that the Greeks were primarily spearmen, not swordsmen. I strongly encourage Sandris not to make a Classical Greek "Swordsman." Rather, I think it would make more sense to have a Hoplite who has uses his sword as a secondary attack animation after his spear shatters. That, and the spear attack animation should be overhand, not underhand, as that would permit the phalanx formation to better hold together as a shield wall. (I think Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire advocated the overhand thrust, though not exactly a scholarly source; another non-scholarly source, Nikolas Lloyd disagrees, but I'm unconvinced by his arguments -- he does, however, agree with the lack of 'swordsmen' in classical Greece; he claims that there is no word for "swordsman" in ancient Greek!) A sword armed Hypapsist might be a nice option, though, even though it's unclear if Hypapsists were swordsmen.
Sandris' later Spartans (he erroneously calls 'em "early") already used the pilos helmet, so we're covered here:
BTW, I already made several swordsmen, just because I needed them for my scenarios. If anybody won`t be using them, it`s up to them.
Bravo. The ancient Greeks were primarily spearmen due to the nature of the terrain they fought over: typically narrow passes where a hoplite formation could not be outflanked (hence the importance of the "push of spears" when hoplite formations came into combat contact). (Also, by the time Alexander the Great was pushing eastwards, he had cavalry to cover his flanks.)
If, however, one is playing on a non-historical map, Greek swordsmen are only reasonable. Also, a less dramatic push out of Greece going, say, westward, would have put the Greeks squarely in contact with ancient Rome, and the legions would have undoubtedly provided some lessons to emulate.
Best,
Oz
I don't know which post you're refering to but I was agreeing with you
BTW, let's not all forget who's making these wonderful toys for us to play with
,Oz
Stormrage
Ever Present Taskmaster
You see what you did, Mithadan? You see his avatar and title now? Empty, man.. empty. No Greeks 
For crying out loud, make requests people, don`t try to stop creativity!
For crying out loud, make requests people, don`t try to stop creativity!
Keroro
Dororo: Ninja Frog
As Ares said: 'only?'.
Yeah, that's the pilos, well spotted. I don't really think that we need any more Spartan varieties personally, though I know that anything that Sandris releases will be well received. To be honest I thought that Romans had been overdone over the years, and yet when that pack was released I was still very happy.What I really appreciate about Kryten's units is his insistence that the Greeks were primarily spearmen, not swordsmen. I strongly encourage Sandris not to make a Classical Greek "Swordsman." Rather, I think it would make more sense to have a Hoplite who has uses his sword as a secondary attack animation after his spear shatters. That, and the spear attack animation should be overhand, not underhand, as that would permit the phalanx formation to better hold together as a shield wall. (I think Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire advocated the overhand thrust, though not exactly a scholarly source; another non-scholarly source, Nikolas Lloyd disagrees, but I'm unconvinced by his arguments -- he does, however, agree with the lack of 'swordsmen' in classical Greece; he claims that there is no word for "swordsman" in ancient Greek!) A sword armed Hypapsist might be a nice option, though, even though it's unclear if Hypapsists were swordsmen.Sandris' later Spartans (he erroneously calls 'em "early") already used the pilos helmet, so we're covered here:
I agree. I requested one of these in Utah's last lottery, and likely will do again if he does another lottery. With all the controversy about Hypaspist weapon choice it would seem to be the best way to represent them. To be honest, I think the best way to think of the armament of Hypaspists is 'flexible'. It's not that easy to represent in a civ unit, but there you go.But a spearman with a secondary sword attack after the spear shatters would be pretty damn cool.
By the way - is Utah still around? I don't recall seeing many posts from him recently.
There's nothing really wrong with Greek swordsmen, though their weapon of choice was generally the spear. Swords were also not that practical in the bronze age, as bronze is brittle and the swords made from it would break on impact rather too often. By the iron age this was not so much of an issue, but by then the Greek military tradition was well established around use of spears. They would use swords on occasion, especially when the battle line broke up - a sword tends to be more handy and versatile then.
I hadn't thought of the Greek use of spears in terms of terrain use. Interesting.
I'll try not to get drawn in to a legion/phalanx discussion (as I have been through that too many times and it tends to bore other people).
But I disagree with you there - I believe that the Romans were comparatively vulnerable to Greek tactics up to around 200 BCE then after Pyrrhus had handed them their asses several times they started organising their manpower a little better. They were still rather vulnerable until the Marius reforms IMHO. The only reason Pyrrhus was unable to capitalise on his victories was lack of manpower to replenish losses - caused by his inability to retain harmony in Epirus and Macedon. Anyway, Alexander vs. Rome will always be one of the great unanswered questions.Back on topic - Sandris - The number one thing I would love to see is an overhand spear thrust. I believe that you've got that sorted in your cavalry units already. I guess the overhand animation you use for your javelin units could be adapted for an overhand spear attack - you'd just need to reduce the body bend so they don't lean forward so much, and keep the spear parented to the hand rather than flying off. Obviously the later phalangites wielded their pikes with two hands (and underarm).
What? Did I offend him?!? I had no idea my post was taken that way; it certainly wasn't intended to be snarky. I was making a request: a request for no Greek swordsmen, but rather a combo spear-first, sword-later attack animation for hoplites.You see what you did, Mithadan? You see his avatar and title now? Empty, man.. empty. No Greeks
For crying out loud, make requests people, don`t try to stop creativity!
Sandris, do forgive me if what I said caused you consternation! I didn't mean anything harsh but what I said, I was just making a suggestion; as always, you can just ignore what I (we) say. You're the artist, after all, we're the unwashed plebs!
Yeah, I believe he still lurks about and makes the occasional unit. I've never had any trouble reaching him by PM.
It`s OK. I won`t post my made swordsmen.
... I know it might not apply in your case, but our Constitution prohibits "cruel & unusual punishment" ...
Best,
Oz
TopGun
258 kills
It`s OK. I won`t post my made swordsmen.
My two cents: Keep the swordsmen, particularly for the Bronze Age.
I would however, support the idea of giving Hoplites an AttackC animation based on swords.
,
Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
Keroro
Dororo: Ninja Frog
This is pure evil.
Good spot.
I think that Sandris is just joking around with Mithadan. I sure hope Sandris is only joking around with Mithadan anyway!
COAtlantis1745
Unit Sounds Engineer
Now see, this is exactly what I am talking about. We have kinda sorta gone from being excited and surprised to simply having expectations of Sandris and all of our other prolific unit creators.
I think we sometimes forget that he actually MIGHT want to play the game once in awhile after creating over 500+ units!
Im gonna say it again. Be still! Be happy with what you already have. Like Stormrage said up there, be respectful, suggest a new unit, and be helpful in the design phase but do NOT stifle creativity.
I think we sometimes forget that he actually MIGHT want to play the game once in awhile after creating over 500+ units!
Im gonna say it again. Be still! Be happy with what you already have. Like Stormrage said up there, be respectful, suggest a new unit, and be helpful in the design phase but do NOT stifle creativity.
