What about new (small) buildings like "Local XYZ producer", which you can use as prerequisites - perhaps they could even be autobuilt. And, say, after a certain tech you use the resource directly.
Research Request(s)
- Thread starter Thunderbrd
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Autobuilt buildings could perhaps help here. Say you get the Local copper wares producer at Metal Casting - I think that is the tech you need for Copper Wares anyway. And at e.g. Iron Working or perhaps Road Building a building called National copper wares distributer is enabled, which is also autobuilt, but this time requires only the resource itself and thus is built in all of your cities. It should probably also be an upgrade to the first building. The unit that formerly required copper wares now requires one of the two buildings.
This would mean that the various OR lists now get to be twice as long, but at least it's "just" XML work. Unfortunately I don't know if the AI could handle this "out of the box", but if that was the case, this might be the easiest solution.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
Regarding Helium 3: It was one of the main reasons to get bases in the moon and there should be buildings that enable He3 on earth. It is very valuable for fusion.
I think you need to connect a He3 mine on the moon, then build the He3 exporter which would allow you to build a He3 importer on earth, that produces He3.
I think you need to connect a He3 mine on the moon, then build the He3 exporter which would allow you to build a He3 importer on earth, that produces He3.
Hmm I'm not sure if @pepper2000 did that for He3 resource now - before I saw only National Wonder producing He3, that required Uranus in vicinity.
pepper2000
King
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 899
That's more or less how it works. The Lunar He3 exporters allow importers to be built on Earth, while the Uranus wonder gives the importers for free.
No one responed.
I'll add Bamboo and vicinity prereqs (must be placed at those resources to actually utilize them) for Hemp (X2)/Flax (X2)/Cotton (X3) to Weaver's Hut as alternative prereqs.
It won't get yields increase from those resources.
Dairy barn will have Pottery as alternative to glassware.
It will get extra health with Glassware being present.
It appears you can't have two separate bonus prereq groups.
Wood on other hand is very easy to obtain - any forest or coast (driftwood gatherer) will allow you to gather this resource.
That it needed other resources to function: Wood or Prime Timber or Bamboo or Tin/Aluminum Wares.
I'll add Bamboo and vicinity prereqs (must be placed at those resources to actually utilize them) for Hemp (X2)/Flax (X2)/Cotton (X3) to Weaver's Hut as alternative prereqs.
It won't get yields increase from those resources.
Dairy barn will have Pottery as alternative to glassware.
It will get extra health with Glassware being present.
Spoiler :
It appears you can't have two separate bonus prereq groups.
Wood on other hand is very easy to obtain - any forest or coast (driftwood gatherer) will allow you to gather this resource.
That it needed other resources to function: Wood or Prime Timber or Bamboo or Tin/Aluminum Wares.
Spoiler :
Last edited:
To recap here are resources, where their producers rely on other resources that are unlocked later.
I'll list buildings needing resources, that are unlocked earlier than respective resource producers.
Slaughterhouse is nice interesting design: It is unlocked by Cooking, and you can get Carcass trough hunting (certain subdued animals).
Fairly reliable Trackers are unlocked column later at Tracking.
I'm not sure if you can subdue carcass giving animals with Chasers/Trackers before you research Cooking - that should be easier on slower speeds (more time to move your units).
Some resources have bigger wait times anyway.
Lard (X4 - Cooking)
Lichen Burner (X3 - Controlled Fire/Scavenging)
Lichen Burner can have Cooking/Scavenging prereqs
It needs Butchery, that makes Lard and Raw Meat, which needs Slaughterhouse (produces Bones), which needs subdued animal herds though
Butchery and Slaughterhouse needs Cooking
This building needs cold terrains, so you won't see it too fast most of time
Lichen Burner now requires Cooking instead of Controlled Fire
Cooking has prereq of Controlled Fire.
Rope (X9 - Binding)
Jump Rope (X7 - Games)
This one looks like proxy requirement: Resource replaces tech requirement of Binding (where Rope maker is placed)
Bone (X9 - Bone Working)
Technically can be produced much earlier at X4 - Slaughterhouse produces Bone and needs Cooking/Shelter Building
There is similar situation with Ivory (Bone Working) producers
Wood (X9 - Simple Wood Working)
Dining Hall requires Cooking/Shelter Building (X4), Wood is earliest unlockable resource requirement.
Smoke House requires Cooking (X4). Wood (X9) and Raw Meat (X4) are its resource requirements.
Woodwind Instrument Maker requires Shelter Building (X4) and Prehistoric Music (X5). It makes Woodwind Instruments
Dining Hall and Smoke House could require require Wood Working in addition to their current tech prereqs
Woodwind Maker by proxy needs Simple Wood Working tech - here you can make wood
Beads (X11 - Bead Making)
Jewelry Store (X10 - Personal Adornment) - Earliest of alternative resource prereqs. Makes Jewelry
Ivory can be added to its resource prereqs (Ivory isn't used by Bead Maker)
Ivory (Unlocked by Bone Working X9) is now one of resource prereqs for Jewelry Store.
Jewelry Store even got Gold boost with Ivory. Now it gets gold boost from Pearls (one of its prereqs) too.
Bamboo (X13 - Carpentry)
Bamboo Armourer (X4 - Shelter Building and Tanning (X12))
Bamboo Bridge (X12 - Wood Working)
Nets (X16 - Fishing)
Fish Traps (X9 - Trap Fishing). Needs Baskets and Nets. Nets prereq should be dropped
Fish Traps has their Nets prereq dropped.
Raw Fish (X16 - Fishing)
Dried Fish Maker (X11 - Drying). Makes Dried Fish
Saddles (X17 - Animal Riding)
Stable (X16 - Equine Domestication).
Stable could be moved to Animal Riding
Stable now requires Animal Riding instead of Equine Domestication
This means Equine, Camelid and Elephant Domestication techs are effectively OR tech prereqs for Stable.
Pottery (X21 - Pottery)
Dairy Barn (X15 - Animal Husbandry)
There were no liquid containers in Prehistory or what?
Buckets can be added to Carpentry tech, bucket maker would require Wood and Rope.
Gems (X22 - Mining)
Amber and Jade gatherers (X12 - Barter; Gems producers) are unlocked before Gems resource is unlocked
Fruits (X23 - Orchards)
Dried Fruit Maker (X11 - Drying). Makes Dried Fruit
Copper Wares (X25 - Metal Casting)
Cooper (X24 - Fermentation and Copper Working). Makes Barrels
Brass Wares (X30 - Brass Working)
Brass Instrument Maker (X21 - Folk Music)
Drugs (X37 - Drug Trade)
Fly Agaric Gatherer and Kava Plantation can produce drugs, and are unlocked earlier before Drug Trade.
Trance Hut (X21 - Consciousness)
Drugs should be revealed/enabled much earlier - maybe even at Naturopathy (Kava Plantation, X8) or Fungiculture (Fly Agaric Gatherer, X22).
Medieval and Renaissance seemed to avoid supply chain issues.
Newspapers (X65 - Assembly Line)
News Stand (X63 - Journalism). Makes Newspapers
Tangled arrows aside there are no problems with those techs being in single column.
Automobiles (X69 - Motorized Transportation)
Fire Station (X65 - Firefighting)
Looks like Fire Station has proxy prereq of Motorized Transportation.
Computers (X78 - Early Computing), Computer Factory is at Personal Computers (X81)
Electronics Store (X77 - Electronics)
This one should have multiple OR prereqs
Electronics Store now requires following resources: Computers or Calculators or Radios.
Microgenerators (X97 - Microgenerators)
Bioluminescent Boutique (X96 - Organic Photonics)
This one can be moved to Microgenerators - it requires Microgenerators and Organic Photonic Cells resources.
This building now requires Microgenerators (X97).
Bionic Suits (X105 - Bionics)
Circadian Chamber (X95 - Molecular Medicine)
It should be moved all way to Bionics - It requires Neuromiplants unlocked by Brain Mahine Interface (X97)
Its building prereqs also appear later.
Moved it all way to Regenerative Medicine (X107) tech - all its prereqs are unlocked by this tech
Spoiler :
I'll list buildings needing resources, that are unlocked earlier than respective resource producers.
Slaughterhouse is nice interesting design: It is unlocked by Cooking, and you can get Carcass trough hunting (certain subdued animals).
Fairly reliable Trackers are unlocked column later at Tracking.
I'm not sure if you can subdue carcass giving animals with Chasers/Trackers before you research Cooking - that should be easier on slower speeds (more time to move your units).
Some resources have bigger wait times anyway.
Lard (X4 - Cooking)
Lichen Burner (X3 - Controlled Fire/Scavenging)
Lichen Burner can have Cooking/Scavenging prereqs
It needs Butchery, that makes Lard and Raw Meat, which needs Slaughterhouse (produces Bones), which needs subdued animal herds though
Butchery and Slaughterhouse needs Cooking
This building needs cold terrains, so you won't see it too fast most of time
Lichen Burner now requires Cooking instead of Controlled Fire
Cooking has prereq of Controlled Fire.
Rope (X9 - Binding)
Jump Rope (X7 - Games)
This one looks like proxy requirement: Resource replaces tech requirement of Binding (where Rope maker is placed)
Bone (X9 - Bone Working)
Technically can be produced much earlier at X4 - Slaughterhouse produces Bone and needs Cooking/Shelter Building
There is similar situation with Ivory (Bone Working) producers
Wood (X9 - Simple Wood Working)
Dining Hall requires Cooking/Shelter Building (X4), Wood is earliest unlockable resource requirement.
Smoke House requires Cooking (X4). Wood (X9) and Raw Meat (X4) are its resource requirements.
Woodwind Instrument Maker requires Shelter Building (X4) and Prehistoric Music (X5). It makes Woodwind Instruments
Dining Hall and Smoke House could require require Wood Working in addition to their current tech prereqs
Woodwind Maker by proxy needs Simple Wood Working tech - here you can make wood
Beads (X11 - Bead Making)
Jewelry Store (X10 - Personal Adornment) - Earliest of alternative resource prereqs. Makes Jewelry
Ivory can be added to its resource prereqs (Ivory isn't used by Bead Maker)
Ivory (Unlocked by Bone Working X9) is now one of resource prereqs for Jewelry Store.
Jewelry Store even got Gold boost with Ivory. Now it gets gold boost from Pearls (one of its prereqs) too.
Bamboo (X13 - Carpentry)
Bamboo Armourer (X4 - Shelter Building and Tanning (X12))
Bamboo Bridge (X12 - Wood Working)
Nets (X16 - Fishing)
Fish Traps (X9 - Trap Fishing). Needs Baskets and Nets. Nets prereq should be dropped
Fish Traps has their Nets prereq dropped.
Raw Fish (X16 - Fishing)
Dried Fish Maker (X11 - Drying). Makes Dried Fish
Saddles (X17 - Animal Riding)
Stable (X16 - Equine Domestication).
Stable could be moved to Animal Riding
Stable now requires Animal Riding instead of Equine Domestication
This means Equine, Camelid and Elephant Domestication techs are effectively OR tech prereqs for Stable.
Pottery (X21 - Pottery)
Dairy Barn (X15 - Animal Husbandry)
There were no liquid containers in Prehistory or what?
Buckets can be added to Carpentry tech, bucket maker would require Wood and Rope.
Gems (X22 - Mining)
Amber and Jade gatherers (X12 - Barter; Gems producers) are unlocked before Gems resource is unlocked
Fruits (X23 - Orchards)
Dried Fruit Maker (X11 - Drying). Makes Dried Fruit
Copper Wares (X25 - Metal Casting)
Cooper (X24 - Fermentation and Copper Working). Makes Barrels
Brass Wares (X30 - Brass Working)
Brass Instrument Maker (X21 - Folk Music)
Drugs (X37 - Drug Trade)
Fly Agaric Gatherer and Kava Plantation can produce drugs, and are unlocked earlier before Drug Trade.
Trance Hut (X21 - Consciousness)
Drugs should be revealed/enabled much earlier - maybe even at Naturopathy (Kava Plantation, X8) or Fungiculture (Fly Agaric Gatherer, X22).
Medieval and Renaissance seemed to avoid supply chain issues.
Newspapers (X65 - Assembly Line)
News Stand (X63 - Journalism). Makes Newspapers
Tangled arrows aside there are no problems with those techs being in single column.
Automobiles (X69 - Motorized Transportation)
Fire Station (X65 - Firefighting)
Looks like Fire Station has proxy prereq of Motorized Transportation.
Computers (X78 - Early Computing), Computer Factory is at Personal Computers (X81)
Electronics Store (X77 - Electronics)
This one should have multiple OR prereqs
Electronics Store now requires following resources: Computers or Calculators or Radios.
Microgenerators (X97 - Microgenerators)
Bioluminescent Boutique (X96 - Organic Photonics)
This one can be moved to Microgenerators - it requires Microgenerators and Organic Photonic Cells resources.
This building now requires Microgenerators (X97).
Bionic Suits (X105 - Bionics)
Circadian Chamber (X95 - Molecular Medicine)
It should be moved all way to Bionics - It requires Neuromiplants unlocked by Brain Mahine Interface (X97)
Its building prereqs also appear later.
Moved it all way to Regenerative Medicine (X107) tech - all its prereqs are unlocked by this tech
Last edited:
I think this is almost the only context where anyone would recommend beelining Copper Working and Metal Casting - the hit for the Stone Tools Workshop can be nasty, especially for new cities.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Jewelry - I am working on getting metal beads long before the Wares. It is something Hydro and I struggled over. People have been making beads and great works of art from metal long before any of the metal working techs. TB's work on making resource available for buildings in a city before it is visible makes this possible.
There will be a building "Hammered Metal Worker" (or something, at Soft Hammer Percussion) which will make beads from any of the metals that can be found in pure form in nature. It will provide metal beads, contribute to Great Artist and will be required to make some of the great metal art works of the stone ages.
Similarly a "Gem Bread Driller" (at Jewellery or Piercing) requires local grass (for the drill) and any of the gems will provide "Gemstone Beads".
The "Fake Gemstone" wonder manufactures a resource that should also be used by the Jeweler.
We should also probably look at Shark and Crocodile teeth and others. Along with shells. These would become available at Piercing, a very undervalued tech
.
The Jeweler would then require Beads or Wonder Beads or Gemstone Beads. With Wares/Wonder/Gemstone beads adding to the commerce. Or we could have the various buildings produce Beads as well as their main manufactured good and just have the Jeweler require Beads.
The "Gem Bead Driller" could also take Pearls as a resource.
There a whole range of things that we wanted to do way back when. Some of them we can now do. The placing of buildings etc was based on what we wanted to do. One thing we still can't do is have a commerce increase in a building only if the resource is local. We can do it with autobuilds but the AI wont know about them.
I will come up with a mod for Hammered Metal and Bead Driller. I have them about half way made. The only problem is my complete lack of enthusiasm for this mod at this time.
In fact I thought we did have it visible long before the tech for City placing. All metals will need to be visible before they can be worked so as to allow those with the resource a boost to study of the tech.
There will be a building "Hammered Metal Worker" (or something, at Soft Hammer Percussion) which will make beads from any of the metals that can be found in pure form in nature. It will provide metal beads, contribute to Great Artist and will be required to make some of the great metal art works of the stone ages.
Similarly a "Gem Bread Driller" (at Jewellery or Piercing) requires local grass (for the drill) and any of the gems will provide "Gemstone Beads".
The "Fake Gemstone" wonder manufactures a resource that should also be used by the Jeweler.
We should also probably look at Shark and Crocodile teeth and others. Along with shells. These would become available at Piercing, a very undervalued tech
.The Jeweler would then require Beads or Wonder Beads or Gemstone Beads. With Wares/Wonder/Gemstone beads adding to the commerce. Or we could have the various buildings produce Beads as well as their main manufactured good and just have the Jeweler require Beads.
The "Gem Bead Driller" could also take Pearls as a resource.
There a whole range of things that we wanted to do way back when. Some of them we can now do. The placing of buildings etc was based on what we wanted to do. One thing we still can't do is have a commerce increase in a building only if the resource is local. We can do it with autobuilds but the AI wont know about them.
I will come up with a mod for Hammered Metal and Bead Driller. I have them about half way made. The only problem is my complete lack of enthusiasm for this mod at this time.
Since Copper Working tech research will be improved if you have Copper the resource will need to be exposed earlier.Well there is only one column difference, so its more like beelining to next flower
By that time you should have a lot of production buildings.
Cooper needs Copper Working tech anyway.
In fact I thought we did have it visible long before the tech for City placing. All metals will need to be visible before they can be worked so as to allow those with the resource a boost to study of the tech.
Yes both gourds (plant) and stone as per the Stone Wares wonder. However they would not be good for making anything but fermented milk ie alcohol.
Last edited:
It's "Hard Hammer Percussion" according to Assets\XML\Terrain\CIV4BonusInfos.xml line 6,383.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Thinking on it the building Jewellery Store should not be available until Metal Working or more likely Trade and require a Market or Bazaar as well as Beads or Wares or Pearls.
There does need to be something at Personal Adornment. Perhaps a Jeweler that makes the Jewellery then the Jewellery Store sells it. The Jeweler would have the material requirements and the Store would have the bonus commerce from bonuses and crime values. We could also make it that there needs to be a number of Jewelers to support a single Jewellery Store.
I wonder if we can have buildings that make a bonus only have that bonus available at a later tech. It should. For Example a Shell Worker at Piercing makes Beads but the Beads don't become available until Personal Adornment. The Bone and Ivory Workers could then provide Beads as a secondary good.
We may also want to go with other beads as well. Maybe Ivory and Gemstone beads count as Fine Beads as would the Fake Gems from the wonder which were considered far superior to the real gems in jewellery.
Some of these buildings (Shell Worker, Bone Worker) should be replaced by the more modern Bead Maker perhaps.
There does need to be something at Personal Adornment. Perhaps a Jeweler that makes the Jewellery then the Jewellery Store sells it. The Jeweler would have the material requirements and the Store would have the bonus commerce from bonuses and crime values. We could also make it that there needs to be a number of Jewelers to support a single Jewellery Store.
I wonder if we can have buildings that make a bonus only have that bonus available at a later tech. It should. For Example a Shell Worker at Piercing makes Beads but the Beads don't become available until Personal Adornment. The Bone and Ivory Workers could then provide Beads as a secondary good.
We may also want to go with other beads as well. Maybe Ivory and Gemstone beads count as Fine Beads as would the Fake Gems from the wonder which were considered far superior to the real gems in jewellery.
Some of these buildings (Shell Worker, Bone Worker) should be replaced by the more modern Bead Maker perhaps.
Here are all changes I did to buildings:
I'm not sure what to do with those:
If redundancies would be created, then earlier tech prereqs would have to go.
Buildings would be recosted to latest tech unlock.
Changes aren't in SVN yet.
By the way I spotted some errors with recosting and building prereqs being unlocked later than buildings needing them.
Spoiler :
I'm not sure what to do with those:
Spoiler :
If redundancies would be created, then earlier tech prereqs would have to go.
Buildings would be recosted to latest tech unlock.
Changes aren't in SVN yet.
By the way I spotted some errors with recosting and building prereqs being unlocked later than buildings needing them.
I was waiting for @Dancing Hoskuld and @Thunderbrd opinion.
I'll do all changes except to Dairy Farm as I don't know how to make icons.
Unless I just add Wood and Leather (or Hide) representing wooden and leather containers.
DH didn't notice, that perishable things are already tradable from start
Also Dairy Barn needs one of milk giving animals anyway, meaning that all milk is consumed locally.
In addition to these l revised rest of buildings requiring resources.
Spoiler :
Continued revision.
Spoiler :
To recap: Some buildings got additional tech requirement and tech redundancy cleaned if present, few other got more alternative resources and some resources are unlocked earlier.
All changes are now in SVN.
Last edited:
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
Bead 'jewellery' before metalworking (or in the absence of metal, or in the absence of the skills and equipment for metalworking) was and still is made with string or leather instead.
Beads are not only for adorning persons. Furniture and craft items (including percussion instruments for a game-specific example) can also be so adorned.
I suggest that only a bead-maker should be able to make beads. Bone and ivory then become additional materials (ie. "or" prereq resources) he can make them from.
Once you have a gemstone, you do not want to make beads out of it. At worst, you will make a hole in it so that you can wear it without metalworking. Still, game gems vary from the most worthless like quartz/agate/fluorite, to diamonds, sapphires and rubies so maybe...
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Actually don't care.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'd have to look too closely into the matters to develop an opinion so I have to go on trust for now.
Noriad2
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2014
- Messages
- 1,153
There was a bead factory in Castel-Merle in France, about 30,000 BC. This is also the first place I heard of that had industrial division of labor. They used various raw materials, like sea shells, soap stone from the Pyrenees, and Mammoth Ivory. In one spot, they produced small round objects. In another spot they drilled holes in those objects, and in another spot they strung them together into necklaces and clothing.
The current place of beads in the tech tree is completely correct.
The current place of beads in the tech tree is completely correct.
Similar threads
