Research Request(s)

[raxo2222]

@Thunderbrd I allowed Cannery to function without power, but it gets 10% food boost with power.

Food Preservation (X63) tech was kinda useless without Cannery, as it could be built only after you get Electricity (X67).
Typewriters and Newspapers in Journalism (X63) tech aren't as critical, but I can make those factories not require electricity and get bonus with it.
Assembly Line with all other factories is at X65

Some Industrial resources unlocked before Electricity have their earliest producers requiring electricity.
Typewriters, Newspapers, Nutella, Pencils, Phonographs, Potato Chips, Soda Pop, Water Bottles, Oil Products, Nylon.

If they have factory prereq before factory is unlocked then I'll add another prereq - Cottage Industry as it seems to be early version of factory.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd I allowed Cannery to function without power, but it gets 10% food boost with power.

Food Preservation (X63) tech was kinda useless without Cannery, as it could be built only after you get Electricity (X67).
Typewriters and Newspapers in Journalism (X63) tech aren't as critical, but I can make those factories not require electricity and get bonus with it.
Assembly Line with all other factories is at X65

Some Industrial resources unlocked before Electricity have their earliest producers requiring electricity.
Typewriters, Newspapers, Nutella, Pencils, Phonographs, Potato Chips, Soda Pop, Water Bottles, Oil Products, Nylon.

If they have factory prereq before factory is unlocked then I'll add another prereq - Cottage Industry as it seems to be early version of factory.

Sounds good.

 

[raxo2222]

Sounds good.

Instead of Cottage Industry I added Trading Post as it was used for few other resource producers.

If resource producers had +% yield boost and required power while they were unlocked before electricity, then I moved that boost to Power dependent yield boost.
Otherwise there is no change in yield when power is present.
Now those resources can be obtained bit earlier.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm sure a lot of this becomes necessary for access issues so do what needs to be done. Power should eventually be made a property but there's only so much we can work on at one time.

 

[raxo2222]

I'm sure a lot of this becomes necessary for access issues so do what needs to be done. Power should eventually be made a property but there's only so much we can work on at one time.

I already adjusted those resource providers - changes are in SVN now.

 

[raxo2222]

There are resources, that you stop producing after some time, as all their producers go obsolete.

Spoiler :

Bark
Bicycles
Cotton Fibers
Diskettes
Ecstasy
Fertilizers
Firecrackers
Flax Fibers
Fossils
Fur
Ghee Oil
Hemp Fibers
Hide
Ice Cream
Jewellery
Kerosene
LSD
Masks
Meth
Newspapers
Olive Oil
Pelts
Pencils
Phonographs
Poison
Saddles
Sails
Scrolls
Silk Fibers
Skis
Stone Tools
Tablets
Tannin
Tapestries
Transistors
Typewriters
Vines
Whale Oil
Punch Cards
Ostrich Leather/Feathers
Olmec/Liangzhu/Shang Jade figures.

It seems to be very arbitrary.

What about making all resource producers to not obsolete?
Of course you would have to ensure, that old resource producers are replaced or consolidated by newer versions.
For example Bark Gatherer would be replaced by Argroforest.
Or all those flower/nuts/berries/bugs producers are replaced by other buildings.

There is "soft obsoletion" when all resource consumers (and buildings that benefit from presence of resource) go obsolete.
There are buildings like Library - its unlocked in Classical era and it never obsoletes, and so resource producers doesn't have to obsolete.

Capacity to produce resources should always exist.

 

[tmv]

Diskettes and Typewriters certainly are obsolete in our day, and I think even Stone Tools are not used any more on a daily basis.

 

[raxo2222]

Diskettes and Typewriters certainly are obsolete in our day, and I think even Stone Tools are not used any more on a daily basis.

I know, this is what I meant by soft obsoletion: Lack of consumers for such resources.

You can still make diskettes or stone tools in future for novelty purposes.

Hard obsoletion is can full of worms:
Can break unit/building chains, as players don't track resource producers.
Also both in history and SF are a lot of civs, that exist close to each other and have vastly different tech base.
Also novelty items or uncontacted tribes are a thing.
That is economic significance is never absolute 0 and you still could produce those resources.

That is there could be buildings that get boost from soft obsoleted resources like museums, archaeologic sites, novelty items stores and so on.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't think all resources would be hard obsolete immune. But a soft obsolete period would be appropriate as a prelude to a hard obsolete later when game experience shows its safe to do so.

 

[tmv]

That is there could be buildings that get boost from soft obsoleted resources like museums, archaeologic sites, novelty items stores and so on.

Please consider that these resources mean newly produced Stone tools, diskettes, etc. For old goods you would need to have the game track and remember the presence of these resources from earlier in the game. Or you go completely insane with resources and double all the produced ones, each normal resource producing an old goods resource that somehow stays around even after the original resource is gone. Whereas the former "solution" would also have the advantage that Ancient Relics could go as a map resource, because that one is a bit unbelievable as a map resource when you consider the starting date of the mod.

 

[raxo2222]

I'll list resources, that has their final producer (regular building) obsoleting (not counting natural wonders).
This is more for lookup.

Classical:
Flint producer is obsoleted at Iron Working - after that only natural wonder provides it
Stone Tools producer is obsoleted at Iron Working

Medieval:
Tablets producer is obsoleted at Paper

Renaissance:
Poison producer is obsoleted at Chemistry

Industrial:
Natron (map resource) is obsoleted at Refining

Atomic:
Charcoal producer is obsoleted at Advanced Metallurgy
Phonographs producer is obsoleted at Mass Media
Saddles producer is obsoleted at Vertical Flight
Scrolls producer is obsoleted at Personal Computers
Punch Cards producer is replaced by Diskette producer at Personal Computers (obsoletes at Flash Memory)
Typewriters producer is obsoleted at Computer Networks

Information:
Diskettes producer is obsoleted at Wearable Computers
Sails producer is obsoleted at Marine Architecture

Nanotech:
Kerosene producer is obsoleted at Fusion

Transhuman:
Fossils producer is obsoleted at Novo Palaeontology

Special resources tech unlock (no regular/wonder producer):
Skis - Modern Sports
Mammoth Graveyard - Modern Palaeontology
Hit Animated Movie - Animation

Space resources - these need space map to be obtainable (some of them are space only)
Moon Rocks - Lunar Exploration
Carbon Dioxide Ice & Helium 3 (Map) - Astrogeology
Mars Rocks - Planetary Exploration
Metallic Asteroid & Organic Volatiles (Map) - Asteroid Belt Probes
Extraterrestrial Microbes (Map) - Jovian Exploration
Martian Vegetables - Planetary Colonization
Martian Blueberries (Map) - Planetary Extraction
Martian Manufactured Goods - Planetary Manufacturing
Martian Electronics - Ion Beams
Martian Algae - Dystopia Pathogens
Plasteel - Hypermagnetics
Martian Fruit - Botanical Alchemy
Superintelligent Computers - Technological Singularity
Deep Space Nanobots - Animamaterials
Deep Space Lifeforms - Gaia Ecology
Martian Crops - Extraterrestrial Agriculture
Nanomorphic Habitats - Nanomorphic Troids
Xenofauna & Xenofauna (Map) - Planet Scouting
Antimatter - ACNP Propulsion
Advanced Replicators - Forge Worlds
Yggdrasil Seeds - Ecosynthesis
Abandoned Civilization (Map) - Astroimperialism
Kugelblitz - Singularity Stabilization
Warp Drives - Folding Space
AB Matter - Femtotechnology
Abandoned Megastructure (Map) - Cultural Longevity
Time Crystals - Immortality
Personal Starcraft - Reactionless Drive
Dark Matter - Dark Matter Engineering
Alice Matter - Supersymmetric Particle Construction
Magnetic Monopoles - Electroweak Matter
Chronoton - Omega-Minus Engineering
Neutronium - Neutronium
Mithril, Orichalcum, Conscious Materials - Fantasy Materials
Artisan Planets - Hyperstructure Engineering
Exotic Lifeforms (Map) - Endless Exploration
Personal Hypercraft - Endogenous Euclidean Propulsion
Tesseract - Tesseract Construction
Quantonium Crystal (Map) - 3D Projections
Unobtainium - Simulation Awareness

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'll list resources, that has their final producer (regular building) obsoleting.

Flint regular producer is obsoleted at Iron Working - after that only natural wonder provides it.
Stone Tools regular producer is obsoleted at Iron Working.

So why is this a problem with bonuses when it happens with buildings all the time? Eg security buildings?

Both Flint and Stone Tools were an early attempt at equipment. Workers would get the correct promotion based on these tools an that would affect their work rate etc. rather than a tech. Only very few techs would still affect work rate. The resources were supposed to go obsolete when you got the new tools not on the tech.

 

[raxo2222]

So why is this a problem with bonuses when it happens with buildings all the time? Eg security buildings?

Both Flint and Stone Tools were an early attempt at equipment. Workers would get the correct promotion based on these tools an that would affect their work rate etc. rather than a tech. Only very few techs would still affect work rate. The resources were supposed to go obsolete when you got the new tools not on the tech.

Well some buildings may have commerce/yield boost from those resources.

Also flint was used for much longer.
Uses were changing trough eras.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Flint is still used today in lighters but that does not mean it needs to be in the game for that long. One form of obsolescence is when the resource is everywhere. At that point there is no need for them in game. Also there is no money to be made anymore from them or it has reduced so much that the value is more in the things made than the raw resource.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If you want the resource to exist for ever then don't forget to adjust those buildings so that they don't get the benefit from those resources at the tech they used to go obsolete at. Personally I think it is easier to just obsolete the resource and not worry about the buildings.

 

[raxo2222]

If you want the resource to exist for ever then don't forget to adjust those buildings so that they don't get the benefit from those resources at the tech they used to go obsolete at. Personally I think it is easier to just obsolete the resource and not worry about the buildings.

Some people would like producers to never obsolete.
I guess they don't want to build all possible buildings at least in capital.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The point is that over time resources go in and out of both fashion and usefulness. Just because something produces +3 in the Ancient era does not mean it will still produce +3 in the Modern. A good example is medicines. Plants used to make them at the time of Hatshepsut are not as good as those found when the New World was discovered. So those resources went out of use to be replaced by others. (Side Note: of the 150 or so remedies from a medical scroll from the time of Hatshepsut, about 10 have not been translated well enough to identify the actual ingredients. Most of the rest were still being used in the 1950's in European medicine, with minor adjustments eg replacing prayers and spells with a clock to measure the times in the making. Those that weren't had their ingredients replaced by plants from the New World. I can't find the archaeology magazine to give references/citations)

 

[Thunderbrd]

The point is that over time resources go in and out of both fashion and usefulness. Just because something produces +3 in the Ancient era does not mean it will still produce +3 in the Modern. A good example is medicines. Plants used to make them at the time of Hatshepsut are not as good as those found when the New World was discovered. So those resources went out of use to be replaced by others. (Side Note: of the 150 or so remedies from a medical scroll from the time of Hatshepsut, about 10 have not been translated well enough to identify the actual ingredients. Most of the rest were still being used in the 1950's in European medicine, with minor adjustments eg replacing prayers and spells with a clock to measure the times in the making. Those that weren't had their ingredients replaced by plants from the New World. I can't find the archaeology magazine to give references/citations)

I have a way in mind to sort that out so that it's cleaner than it is now but it's a very long term plan.