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Research

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I think the Tower is relatively okay in its current form. As Sneaks said it can be used for a free golden age, I buffed the Academy yields significantly, and the beakers can still often give a full free tech.
     
  2. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    I played a game on Prince with TBC 4.36 (still had WWGD) to check "balance." Research for the AI seemed dead on, which is great to see.
     
  3. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    After my last v5.4 game, I wished that there was more to research than DoF's. The system is balanced enough - but it seems to me that the AI initiates 80% of my DoF's, so the whole process winds up felling pretty passive, consisting mainly of me saying "yes" to almost anyone. (Exceptions are small fry or obvious bullies.)
     
  4. SgtCiv

    SgtCiv Chieftain

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    If this has been asked before I'm sorry for re-asking, I did perform a search and didn't see any comments on this matter.
    It doesn't make any sense for a person to be able to build and sail a Caravel and attack using cannons without even researching gunpowder yet???
     
  5. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    A lot of techs don't add up as logically as that. Infantry doesn't require Rifling, for example.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I'm impressed you have gotten them to agree even once!

    I have NEVER gotten the AI to agree to one.
     
  7. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    Honestly, it's probably just coincidence. And it happens much more often once a DoF expires and I want to renew. Even then, some of them wait a turn or two, until the timing is right for them.
     
  8. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Due to the Civ 5 tech tree's restrictions on links (no links crossing other links or "jumping" without a visible link) there's going to be a few historical oddities here and there. Civ's always going to have some abstraction like this, so I focus the scope of my work on gameplay imbalances and user interface issues. :)

    The AI agree-to-DoF thing makes sense if you think about it. There's basically two ways it could be done:

    • The AI comes to us when it's ready to sign.
    • We ask the AI each turn if it wants to sign, until it's ready and accepts.
    Option A results in much less tedious micro but does make the "do you want to sign?" option in diplomacy somewhat pointless. I ask the AI if they want to sign when I notice their status is friendly or a DoF has just expired, but other than that, I let them come to me.
     
  9. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    I know that there's beaker carry-over now from tech to tech. Is this true when we use a GS as well? That is, do the excess GS beakers carry over as well? I have always made sure to use the GS when it won't spill over, but would like to stop wondering if I'm wasting my time.
     
  10. Seek

    Seek Chieftain Supporter

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    It does not. It should say that in the tooltip, if I forgot I'll ask Thal to add it in.

    Btw, how do you like the amount of beakers granted by the GS? The tech costs since the March patch are a little higher than what they were in TBC prepatch, so the GS got nerfed a little more.
     
  11. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    I never know for sure, since I don't do that sort of micro-managing, but it did seem like the GS wasn't delivering quite as much. It doesn't seem major, though. Is it worth rebalancing?
     
  12. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I think it's good to have it weak, so the great scientist doesn't have a position of being significantly more powerful than other great people, like in vanilla.

    I actually go for Merchants a lot now. 1000-2000:c5gold: from the trade mission is enough to upgrade a whole army, and the customs house gets buffed by Patent Law. :)
     
  13. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    For some reason I had it stuck in my head that GM's gave about 500-600g. 1000-2000g is a different story - especially when warmongering.
     
  14. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    It's actually double in early eras and triple in late ones. I changed it so Civ 5 great merchants give about as much gold-value as they did in Civ 4, where we could upgrade a whole army with one merchant. I think the big reduction in purchasing power with the Civ 5 merchant is why that great person and specialist type are such a low priority in vanilla.

    Vanilla:
    400:c5gold: (classical) - 600:c5gold: (modern)

    Mod:
    900:c5gold: (classical) - 2000:c5gold: (modern)
     
  15. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    Speaking of non-GS buffs, I took a cultural CS ad picked up about 700 culture points. This got me one policy in the Renaissance. Is that about right? I was looking forward to your estimate of a most of a branch in Medieval!
     
  16. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    It depends on how many policies you've already acquired. Capturing a citystate gives an immediate bonus equal to 50 turns of alliance.

    Maritime
    2:c5food: per era (3 allied)

    Cultural
    5:c5culture: + 2:c5culture: per era (3 allied)

    Medieval era = (5+(3*3)) * 50 = 700:c5culture:
     
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    Now I get it. I had quite a few, because I had Stonehenge.
     
  18. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    The perfect solution for Research Agreements is:

    • RAs available only when a Declaration of Friendship is in place.
    • RAs provide 5% of the combined :c5science: of both players.
    • RAs cost :c5gold: to sign.
    • Each RA signed increases the :c5gold: cost of future RAs.
    This accomplishes several things:

    • Gives a tangible reward to Declarations of Friendship.
    • Joint research automatically balances game difficulty. We get less from the RA when ahead, and more when behind. The vanilla method favors players who are already doing well, trivializing the game once ahead.
    • Helps small/peaceful players research faster. With this method, small empires have fewer but advanced units, and large empires have lots of less-advanced units. Giving both quality and quantity advantages to conquerors trivializes warfare.
    I would have done this a year ago, but it's still not possible to disable the vanilla research agreement effect with our modding tools. The only option is to put the RA bonus on the DoF itself. The vanilla patch change removes the exploit potential of the old free-tech method but doesn’t help with the underlying problems.
     
  19. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I like it all except this bit.
    The gold cost of RAs should depend on how much it gives you (eg: what era you are in, what your total research is, how many techs you have, or whatever) so that the benefit is somewhat proportional to the cost.

    If you implement it the way you describe (gold cost depends on how many you have signed) then you have strong incentives to not sign them in the early game, and use your early game gold in city states and other stuff, and instead sign them for cheap in the late game, so the science:gold ratio is much higher.
     
  20. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    This makes sense to me, except for increasing the cost of future RA's - why? - and not following how it affects small, peaceful players vis a vis warmongers.
     

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