Resource Depletion - Mod idea

UncivilizedGuy

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I am considering the creation of a mod that removes non-renewable resource deposits such as Iron and Oil. I've been toying with this idea for a while. Thought I'd share it to see what people think.

Strategic resources would be done differently. Instead of the forever improvements that currently exist, strategic resources would now be strictly harvestable. When harvested they would yield massive amounts of production. Units would no longer require resources directly.

Example (these numbers will likely change):
  • Copper = 500 :hammers:
  • Iron = 1000 :hammers:
  • Niter = 1500 :hammers:
  • Coal = 2000 :hammers:
  • Oil = 3000 :hammers:
  • Aluminum = 2500 :hammers:
  • Uranium = 4000 :hammers:
New technologies could reveal more deposits as you progress along the tech tree.

Forests can only be chopped. No more Lumber Mills.

Generic Quarries would replace generic Mines for improving Hills. Since it's more realistic. Mines are usually constructed to access a specific resource.

Mines over Luxury resources would probably remain for game play purposes. Luxuries aren't critical to production.

Still deciding what to do with Stone.

Also, I don't like the idea of harvesting Wheat and Rice because these are renewables.

Should Fish and Crabs be treated as renewables? We do have the Fishery improvement which can be made into a generic late game improvement not requiring a Governor.

Let me know what you think...
 
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The only thing I could agree with here is the statement that "New technologies could reveal more deposits as you progress along the tech tree."

The problem with having a 'set' amount of Production - or any other Game Resource - from a deposit is that the usefulness of each and every deposit depends on when it is harvested.
Copper = first tool and weapon metal, so Prime Importance for Production in the early Ancient Era. After Ironworking, not so much, a 'fringe' metal for alloys like bronze and brass, until the Industrial Era and Electricity. Then it is massively important for copper wiring, electrical motor armatures, and virtually everything you want to do with electricity.
Iron = only after Ironworking and the ability with kilns and bellows to produce enough heat to work it. Even then, less than 200 tons of Iron will produce all the weapons, armor, and equipment for an entire Roman Legion: the quantities required are not really huge, so piling up a few thousand tons by 'harvesting' just gets you a pile of rusting iron ingots that you can't use up before they flake away.
Until - again- the Industrial Era, when it takes 200 tons of Iron just for a mile or two of railroad, let alone the steam locomotives, steam engine power plants for factories, Ironclads - even the cast-iron artillery on one Frigate represents 60 - 100 tons of Iron. The quantities required are suddenly Off The Chart, and they only get larger when you throw in requirements for Battleships, Tanks, other motor vehicles, aircraft engines, skyscraper framing, etc., etc.
Niter = is a 'false resource' which doesn't belong in the game as a Deposit at all. The huge majority of 'niter' used to make gunpowder came from Nitraries, manufacturing facilities that made Nitre from decomposition of organic matter and urine. They could be built virtually anywhere, but in game terms, reduce the Appeal of surrounding tiles to about - 1000 or descriptively: "Stomach Turning". The few natural deposits that were exploited for both explosives and fertilizer can be numbered on the fingers of one hand and really could be better represented as a form of Natural Wonder.
Coal = again, no use at all until the early Renaissance, when you start running out of firewood and turn to charcoal or coal as a substitute, and then of course a Major Resource in the (here it is again) Industrial Era, when it powers everything.
Oil = except for using Bitumin and other 'natural' oil seeps to waterproof reed boats and, occasionally, as the basis for medicines, again pretty much a 'fringe' product until Internal Combustion. Then it becomes the indispensable Military Resource, because it powers everything that moves from Submarines to Battleships to Tanks to Aircraft, and despite all the 21st century/Information Age scientific advances, it still does.
Aluminum = couldn't be used at all until the late Industrial Era, when the processes for refining the ore using hydroelectricity were developed. A Nothing resource until nearly the Modern Era, when, of course, it becomes a material or an alloy for building everything from buildings to aircraft to modern (Information Era) ships and armored vehicles.
Uranium = has, as far as I know, only three uses: the ore can be used to make a bright yellow glaze for pottery, depleted uranium makes a very effective penetrator for antitank missiles, and, of course, it can be made to go Very Boom, but not before, by definition, the Atomic Era. Before then, it does not provide Production except to the occasional Potter. In fact, to make it useable Requires investment of massive amount of 'Production Points' - see the Manhattan Project, for example.

BUT Resources definitely need some rethinking. Here are my thoughts:
1. As you use them, ALL deposits Deplete. With a few exceptions any deposit you start exploiting will start depleting until One Fine Turn it disappears. BUT you should also be finding new Deposits all the time. As a Game Mechanic, this has the advantage of keeping you busy even in the late game hunting for new deposits with new Technologies, Scouts, or some specialized Great Person, and exploiting them, which may require taking them away from someone else.
2. The speed with which you deplete Deposits/Resources varies during the game. Gold and Silver, for instance, are always exploited to the Max, because they have been valued since before the Start of Game so that any deposit found will be dug into with every resource of manpower and tools available. For almost all other resources, requirements are real small until the Industrial Era. Then, the required quantities become massive: 'Industrial Quantities' if you will. BUT at the same time the technology to exploit those deposits becomes much more efficient: the first steam engines were used to pump water out of mines so that coal and iron and other minerals could be dug from much deeper - previously inaccessible - veins of ore. Hydraulic Mining and massive earthmoving machines for Open Pit Mines followed, so that 'old' deposits frequently become Exploitable again, and entirely new deposits 'open up': but they required people (and should require you, rtes Gamer) to invest the money, resources, and technology required to extract the Deposit Resource using the new techniques - some of which, like Open Pit Mines and Hydraulic Mining (and some specialized Oil-extraction techniques, like Fracking) will radically change the tiles on which you use them.
3. Let's not forget Renewable Resources. Anything that can be Planted or Grown an be planted or grown somewhere else. It takes certain technologies, but they are available (for some things) all the way back to the Ancient Era. The limitation is, in many cases, very specific terrain/climate requirements for things like Wine grapes, silkworms and their food, Bananas (which I've always assumed simply meant Any Tropical Fruit/Edible Plant), etc. Historically, the spread of some animals and plants had huge impact on Civilizations, and it is really a sign of laziness on the part of the Design Teams that such an impact is utterly missing from the game.

So, to return to your Original Idea, rather than Harvesting, which is really a pretty artificial Game Mechanic, why not have varying degrees of Production, Gold, or other result based on the Technology and techniques you are using to extract and exploit the Resource? Digging up Copper with a bronze shovel and pick so you can make a helmet out of it in the Ancient Era will give you one amount of Production. Removing the entire hill and turning the tile into one of the infamous Circular Lakes of Civ 6 in the Modern Era so you can electrically wire up 7 cities is a whole other level of Production Points, and probably should provide Amenity (electrical appliances, lights) and Gold as well.
And, unless you are exploiting the Messabi Range, the same tile of Copper you've been mucking about with since 3800 BCE and the Ancient Era may be depleted within 10 turns of Mechanized Open Pit Mining in the Modern Era, requiring you to find, trade, steal or otherwise obtain a new source for your Copper/Production Points/Amenity/Gold.
 
Having the resources deplete over time is the ideal way of doing this. The problem though is I see no way to code that. There is no way to make a resource go obsolete either. Harvesting is the only thing that can be done that can simulate depletion as far as the coding goes for now.

If the production yield is large it will speed up over-all production in bursts. The large bursts of production represent the resources' importance making them strategic. Each resource would yield different quantities of production depending on when they are first revealed. More deposits becoming revealed as the game progresses would add a sense of realism to the game. Each resource would not be initially revealed until it's historical importance just like the game is in vanilla form. A resource like copper could be revealed in each era. But because it's revealed in every era there would be a greater occurrence of that resource on the map. Copper's yield would be small compared to Oil. The AI is slow to improve and harvest (assuming the AI actually harvests) so I would expect to see copper deposits every where by mid-game. Just in time for the Industrial era.
 
Having the resources deplete over time is the ideal way of doing this. The problem though is I see no way to code that. There is no way to make a resource go obsolete either. Harvesting is the only thing that can be done that can simulate depletion as far as the coding goes for now.

If the production yield is large it will speed up over-all production in bursts. The large bursts of production represent the resources' importance making them strategic. Each resource would yield different quantities of production depending on when they are first revealed. More deposits becoming revealed as the game progresses would add a sense of realism to the game. Each resource would not be initially revealed until it's historical importance just like the game is in vanilla form. A resource like copper could be revealed in each era. But because it's revealed in every era there would be a greater occurrence of that resource on the map. Copper's yield would be small compared to Oil. The AI is slow to improve and harvest (assuming the AI actually harvests) so I would expect to see copper deposits every where by mid-game. Just in time for the Industrial era.

Okay, pardon if some of this seems BDI (Blind Dumb Ignorant), but my last Computer Language was COBOL, so my knowledge isn't exactly Current!
1. Does 'Harvesting' have to be done by a unit as a specific action, or could it be added to another action, such as Improvement. That is, could the Harvest action be a randomized result of Improving the Resource?
2. Since the results of Harvest already vary depending on Governor influence, can the results be modified by other factors? Like, the Era you are in or by a specific Technology?
These two questions would/might give us the effect I was looking at: Depletion based on use and variable results based on where you are in the Tech Tree - or by Era.
3. Is the Event of Resource Reveal Hard Coded to a specific game event, or can one resource be revealed (in different locations) at different times? OR, is it possible to Code , say, a Silver Resource separately as Silver Ancient, Silver Classical, Silver Renaissance, - or better yet, Silver Start of Game, Silver at Tech: Engineering, Silver at Tech: Steam Power, and so on, so that you 'reveal' resource deposits at different times in the game based on your Tech Level?
 
has, as far as I know, only three uses:
Glaze made from uranium oxide also makes very nice oranges sometimes even called "radioactive red." The red-orange is a result of using higher amounts of uranium oxide for the glaze.

And, unless you are exploiting the Mesabi Range, the same tile of Copper you've been mucking about with since 3800 BCE and the Ancient Era may be depleted within 10 turns of Mechanized Open Pit Mining in the Modern Era, requiring you to find, trade, steal or otherwise obtain a new source for your Copper/Production Points/Amenity/Gold.
Shout out for the Mesabi. Physically near and dear to my heart. 70% of US iron output since forever.
It seems that maybe the best way to approach this is to have new deposits showing up somewhat frequently, with more tech allowing a better chance of larger and larger finds. Maybe some scheme like, the resource is depleted at the rate of it's production yield?
So your early iron mine might only be sucking out 1 production per turn early game, but in the industrial there is a massive boost to the tile output (incentivizing you to replace old infrastructure with mines over newly found deposits) of say +5 production. Now old deposits will dry up quick and you'll have to find the newly revealed bigger deposits faster, but always be compensated. If we are going by a per-turn model where the resources dry up but you can't extract them lump sum. You could also have more modern mines require gold expenditure to be created, or a tile maintenance cost, increasing in amount over time.

Implement a counter on each plots with resource and save their values in a table.
+1
 
Glaze made from uranium oxide also makes very nice oranges sometimes even called "radioactive red." The red-orange is a result of using higher amounts of uranium oxide for the glaze.

I knew about Uranium for a yellow glaze because, of all things, it was the basis for a science fiction short story published way back in the 1950s - you know, the Atomic Era. Didn't know about the red-orange, since my own color expertise (such as it is) is in dyes for military uniforms (historical), mostly vegetable rather than mineral. Thanks for the information!

Shout out for the Mesabi. Physically near and dear to my heart. 70% of US iron output since forever.
It seems that maybe the best way to approach this is to have new deposits showing up somewhat frequently, with more tech allowing a better chance of larger and larger finds. Maybe some scheme like, the resource is depleted at the rate of it's production yield?
So your early iron mine might only be sucking out 1 production per turn early game, but in the industrial there is a massive boost to the tile output (incentivizing you to replace old infrastructure with mines over newly found deposits) of say +5 production. Now old deposits will dry up quick and you'll have to find the newly revealed bigger deposits faster, but always be compensated. If we are going by a per-turn model where the resources dry up but you can't extract them lump sum. You could also have more modern mines require gold expenditure to be created, or a tile maintenance cost, increasing in amount over time.
+1

Given Civ VI's penchant for upgrading/improving buildings and creations by threes, perhaps each Improvement over a Resource could have three Upgrades/Versions. For instance, for Mines:
Shallow Mines - Ancient Era, +1 Production, Depletion Chance = X % per turn
Deep Mines - Renaissance Era (or, Requires Metal Casting Tech) +3 Production, Depletion Chance = 2X % per turn
Open Pit Mines - Modern Era (or, requires Combustion Tech) + 5 Production, Depletion Chance = 3X % per turn
Similarly, for Quarries could be
Open Quarries
Deep Quarries
Open Pit Quarries

All numbers, of course, subject to change with play testing for Balance.
 
...is it possible to Code , say, a Silver Resource separately as Silver Ancient, Silver Classical, Silver Renaissance, - or better yet, Silver Start of Game, Silver at Tech: Engineering, Silver at Tech: Steam Power, and so on, so that you 'reveal' resource deposits at different times in the game based on your Tech Level?
Yes this is exactly what I intend to do. There would be multiple Silver resources revealed at different techs. The player wouldn’t realize that though unless he were to open the civilopedia. I would just name them all Silver and reuse the same art. I did something similar in a Civ5 mod a while back with Copper.
 
So far as depletion goes, could it not be random in some manner? A gold mine yields x for period of time and then become empty? Same with iron, coal, copper, oil, etc. So long as another source become available somewhere. Another question: why is copper only an amenity? Does it not offer some other useful purpose -- beside "decoration"?
 
So far as depletion goes, could it not be random in some manner? A gold mine yields x for period of time and then become empty? Same with iron, coal, copper, oil, etc. So long as another source become available somewhere.
Some have suggested a random chance of depletion per turn, some have suggested a fixed amount, some have suggested fixed amounts that are randomized. Personally you probably want to stick with amounts (whether determined via RNG or not) rather than a chance because of save scumming.
Although this game would work a LOT better IMO if we still had civ5's strategic resource system. Boy, would I ever start wars to get my hands on 12 more coal for my factories and fleets...

Another question: why is copper only an amenity? Does it not offer some other useful purpose -- beside "decoration"?
They couldn't really make it a strategic resource since what would require it? There's little in the way of bronze age troops (spears?) to give it to. Civ5 had it as a luxury, so I'm guessing they just carried it over. It is a nice metal that can be worked easily and is pretty durable and doesn't corrode as easily as something like iron (Many coins have high amounts of copper for this reason.) Plus, you can make bronze with it. A lot of decorative and architectural items were & are made of copper; copper compounds (salts usually) were also pretty commonly used as pigments. It was really handy to have around once the printing press came about because that workability meant it was easy to engrave. And obviously nowadays it's the prime metal for electrical conduction. Those who have done soldering may know that silver is even better than copper for electricity, but ain't nobody got cash for silver power lines.

There's a lot of resources like copper where you would probably want to see a city center building like the Forge make a return- In civ5 it offered extra production to a number of metal resource tiles. Or a stoneworks for quarried resources, etc. The upshot is mineable luxuries make for great tiles, at least.
 
So far as depletion goes, could it not be random in some manner? A gold mine yields x for period of time and then become empty? Same with iron, coal, copper, oil, etc. So long as another source become available somewhere.

I would prefer a case where the resource depletes at a 'semi-random' rate. That is, in most cases when you start to exploit a resource, you have no idea how long it will last. In addition, you don't really use up all of any resource, you simply use up all of it that you can reach with the Technology you have available. As Technology changes, old mines can be reopened, or dug deeper,, or even the 'tailings' - the discarded material that wasn't worth processing before, can now be exploited. Thus, you might have a Silver Resource that you start exploiting in 2500 BCE, you run out of silver you can easily get at by 500 BCE, but in 1700 CE, having 'discovered' steam-powered pumps and new shoring techniques you can dig much deeper so you can 'reopen' the silver mine and exploit it some more.
I would like to see 'Mines' replaced by a series of more efficient mining techniques, representing Ancient/Classical shallow tunnel or shallow pit mines, Industrial Era Deep Tunnel mines, and Modern Era Open Pit Mechanized Mines, each of which could, potentially, exploit a Resource more fully, even when it was 'depleted' according to the older techniques and technology.

Another question: why is copper only an amenity? Does it not offer some other useful purpose -- beside "decoration"?

The rigid classifications of resources as Strategic, Bonus, and Luxury/Amenity are a pure Game Mechanic and artificial. In fact, the 'use' of a resource should vary according to situation and Technology.
Copper is a good example. It was one of the first metals to be exploited, and (as far as we know from the latest archeological findings) the first 'tool' metal. So, Copper should give you a Eureka towards Mining and possibly Bronze-Working as well. Later on, as mentioned in the previous Post, it is virtually a requirement for electrical wiring, so a potential Eureka for Electricity and/or Radio. Currently, in Civ VI Copper is Bonus resource giving extra Gold in the Tile, which reflects, I assume, its use as a decorative metal and pigment. Given its early value as a tool metal alone or in alloy and its later use for electrical wiring, a Production Bonus, at the very least, should also be part of the tile with Copper in it.
 
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