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Hian the Frog said:
Ankenaton,

Right. Most of the time, French admirals were VERY unimaginative ! :(
But when they got some knowledges of naval combat, it became very hard to defeat them. De Grasse, Jean Bart, Surcouf were among the admirals that the English deeply hated :D . English people always speak of the Battle of Trafalgar to (try to) upset French :mad: . It's very funny to reply that they lost USA when they were encircled by the Continental Army and defeated on sea by.....the French (Battle of the bay of Cheseapeak) :lol: . It's also funny to reply that Surcouf had blocked all trade between India and UK for many monthes with ....only 6 boats roaming and sunking all that was English in the Indian Ocean. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Meanwhile, despite a beautifull navy, Frenchmen were/are/will always stay a continental/land power. :)

The Frog.
Vive Le France! People forget all of the little battles away from the main scene. Also most Americans forget and/or never learn that without France's involvement there are no United States. :eek: :eek:
 
@ Ankaneton

I disagree. There will be allways "patriot" movie Mel Gibson, who will alone from woods kill tens of brits :D. + No one would ever want to have a colony over poeple, that choose for president a man who says "I.R." instead for "I'm" :lol:
 
Hian the Frog said:
Right. Why not free combat I promo instead of Defense I ? But no bonus of exps in fight....as i said. Flanking is an other good bonus, you are right.

The Frog.

I must disagree whith that.

In fiction lets compare 3 ships. Black Pearl, Flying Dutchman and Dountles. Each was specific. Black Pearl was fastest, Dutchman had most fire power, Dountles was big and sturdy. Lets say each was made whitgh "timber". So accotrding to your free promo every of this 3 ships would be same. But if we use my free xp, you can specialize ship, to make it faster, stronger, defancive or expantionist giving eighter, speed/withdraw promo, attack/combat promo, defansive promo, sight range promo. And you can name your units as you wish, so you can make your own Black Peral :)



Also later it was mentioned about Vikings. Well their longboats could cross land "short distances". For instance, an Italy in TR World Map. It has sicyly and main continent as one, and you have to sail around it. But longboats could cross it. Cant put any more accurate as English is not my first language.
 
Anaztazioch said:
I must disagree whith that.

In fiction lets compare 3 ships. Black Pearl, Flying Dutchman and Dountles. Each was specific. Black Pearl was fastest, Dutchman had most fire power, Dountles was big and sturdy. Lets say each was made whitgh "timber". So accotrding to your free promo every of this 3 ships would be same. But if we use my free xp, you can specialize ship, to make it faster, stronger, defancive or expantionist giving eighter, speed/withdraw promo, attack/combat promo, defansive promo, sight range promo. And you can name your units as you wish, so you can make your own Black Peral :)



Also later it was mentioned about Vikings. Well their longboats could cross land "short distances". For instance, an Italy in TR World Map. It has sicyly and main continent as one, and you have to sail around it. But longboats could cross it. Cant put any more accurate as English is not my first language.

well adding 3 exp + having drydocks built = enough to increase the speed of ship.:)
 
Hi everybody,

About Timber.

1) Could be "harvested" in Forests and Jungles. They should exist by pack of 2 and more to allow an increase of trade (recommanded by Spartan117)

2) Visible at the beginning of every gameplay or when you discover Sailing tech. I prefer the last solution, more realistic.

3) Must be improved to receive the bonus. Name, picture,... of the Timber improvement still not chosen, but we could ask Thamis and the TAM team to use their stuff.

4) Give bonuses to the built of wooden boats only. It's not a pre requisite. The bonus could be: either free promo Combat I + Flanking I or +3 xps. It's not yet decided, Ankenaton and I prefer the first solution, other guys (as Anaztazioch) a more flexible one.

5) New building: Carpenter. Buildable when you discover Sailing and if you have some Timber (either by trade or you own one) , 90 shields to build, +10% shields production, no health penalty.


That's all. I don't know how to do to only give this bonus to wooden boats only and not to all boats. Is it doable, Houman ?

Wait for comments.

The Frog.
 
Hian the Frog said:
Hi everybody,

About Timber.

1) Could be "harvested" in Forests and Jungles. They should exist by pack of 2 and more to allow an increase of trade (recommanded by Spartan117)

2) Visible at the beginning of every gameplay or when you discover Sailing tech. I prefer the last solution, more realistic.

3) Must be improved to receive the bonus. Name, picture,... of the Timber improvement still not chosen, but we could ask Thamis and the TAM team to use their stuff.

4) Give bonuses to the built of wooden boats only. It's not a pre requisite. The bonus could be: either free promo Combat I + Flanking I or +3 xps. It's not yet decided, Ankenaton and I prefer the first solution, other guys (as Anaztazioch) a more flexible one.

5) New building: Carpenter. Buildable when you discover Sailing and if you have some Timber (either by trade or you own one) , 90 shields to build, +10% shields production, no health penalty.


That's all. I don't know how to do to only give this bonus to wooden boats only and not to all boats. Is it doable, Houman ?

Wait for comments.

The Frog.
Nice succinct redition of what we spoke of at length Hian including the constructive criticism of Los Tirano, Spartan, WarKirby, Anaz, Exerior, and others who I may have left out. This resource will really alter the naval aspects of the mod and perhaps help in fleshing out this neglected portion of the game. As a side note when timber was first implemented by the TAM team as a resource I disagreed with the Carpenter Building improvement having a negative -1 health effect on the city that builds it. What the environment is negatively impacted by all of those woodchips and sawdust? :rolleyes: I know they used varnishes, shellacks and tannins that could degrade the environment to a certain extent; but not to the level of a -1 health effect in my opinion. But then again I could be wrong and lets face it most good mods are collaborative in their development and implementation (like we have here at Realism 2.0). A one or two-man band cannot compete with an orchestra. :)
 
Anaztazioch said:
@ Ankaneton

I disagree. There will be allways "patriot" movie Mel Gibson, who will alone from woods kill tens of brits :D. + No one would ever want to have a colony over poeple, that choose for president a man who says "I.R." instead for "I'm" :lol:
Well with Bush The Younger, he tries to give the impression to Americans and to a lesser extent the world that he is a native Texan (State of Texas). :p His family are old Maine (State of Maine) blue-bloods (rich/noble ancestry) who came over on the MayFlower to the English colony at Plymouth. So to appear closer to the common man, and to show how tough he is; Bush attempts to portray himself as a Texan. It is similar to me (a citizen of New York City/New York State) attempting to portray myself as a native of the states of Mississippi or Louisiana, no matter how many years I lived there. :p
 
regarding gunpowder resource...

currently in the game, no gunpowder means no military for a while. which i dont think is realistic because gunpowder is a relatively common resource.

since the substances used to make gunpowder are fairly common. What about not needing the actual improvement of gunpowder to build early gunpowder units. Instead the gunpowder resource if a civ has access to it increases production by say 25% or something for the production of early gunpowder units. The resource on the map will act as a concentrated area for gunpowder. With a large concentration of a given resource would make production easier as there will be a constant supply of resources.

what do you guys think?...
 
Spartan117 said:
regarding gunpowder resource...

currently in the game, no gunpowder means no military for a while. which i dont think is realistic because gunpowder is a relatively common resource.

since the substances used to make gunpowder are fairly common. What about not needing the actual improvement of gunpowder to build early gunpowder units. Instead the gunpowder resource if a civ has access to it increases production by say 25% or something for the production of early gunpowder units. The resource on the map will act as a concentrated area for gunpowder. With a large concentration of a given resource would make production easier as there will be a constant supply of resources.

what do you guys think?...

I would say not. Seizing Saltpeter resources to prevent the enemy making guns is a perfectly viable strategy and I would not like to see it lost. If someone lacks saltpeter they can always trade for it.

WarKirby
 
based on this disscussion, what you think about this:

each resource can cotribute small amount each turn to central deposit. when you want to buikd some unit/building/wonder, you need standard hammers and some amount of resource:
let's copper mine will give 20 copper unit to central deposit each turn, axeman need for build 5 coppers - so with one mine at start you can build 4 axemans and no copper is added to pool. but when build only 2 axemans, you got +10 coppers to pool - so after 5 turns you have 50 coppers in pool (+20 per mine), so you can build 9 axemans (if you have enough cities of course)

and maybe some advanced units need 1-2 copper(iron,oil,...) each turn for upkeep

you can also has some resource converters (ie iron to steel with steel mine - so advanced unit do not use raw iron, but steel)....


only one problem: how to teach AI to use this
 
Excellent. why did noone else think of that?

Why didn't I think of it? It's brilliant. 100% support from me

Could you maybe have certain resources richer than others? Like one oilfield gives 5 per turn, and another (scaled up) might give 8.

WarKirby
 
This is kind of complex ... I am still unsure if i like the idea.

Civ lives from many simple things. Combined to a complex game.

I generally dislike the idea to make the small things too complex. It tend to destroy the feeling, the gameplay ... and nothing is worser then that.

I think the suggestion from Mexico isn't detailed enough to say much about it.

Brainstomring (dont have enough time to deep thought):

---
If u want to hold it simple, i would implement at most 3 or 4 diffrent "complex" ressources at one time. It might be timber, copper and iron in the beginning. Later on you will lose these three and get others.

---
You cannot store the ressources. If u have a source of 5 copper, you can produce 5 axeman (require each 1 copper) at the same time. You can say it: You need one strategic ressource to let a city builid one unit.
This way you don't have to "manage"" the ressources in a hard way.
You get a stronger army, if u build constant at some cities. Call it: build a army up slowly.
If u love to play peacefull, you cannot build an strong army with all yor towns.

---
Cap the storage room of the central depot (3 per city). Otherwise you can store some of the ressource and trade them away.

---
Ressource Converter is a GOOD idea. For Example: In the WW II many nations tries to get oil artifical and some other ressources. With more or less good results. But see: You can use "rape oil" to make a sorch of energy.
With Converter you can simulate this. You need a lot of iron to make steel, or a lot of production to make some "rape oil" ... and so on. It will be expansive, but possible. (but i would make it HELL expansive - i think ... around 5 times the normal production costs of a unit.



I have to go. Maybe i will post this night some deep thoughts about this :) But who wants to hear them? Nobody? :)
 
Anaztazioch said:
@ Spartan177

Remember the year Japan used gunpowder units in larger number ?

@ Ankenaton

ITS NOT F*ING ANAZ !!! :<
My apologies; my use of a shortened version is meant to indicate camraderie, not as an insult. :)
 
Hi all,

An other solution which completly change our way of playing is to:
- allow the built of ALL units without ressources but only techs.
- giving promos linked to ressources.
- these new promos (which are now linked to ressouces) are available to specific types of units.
- meanwhile, there would have some exceptions. Some lands units ( tanks, humvee,...) and modern naval type units ( ironclad, all oil and uranium boats and subs) would at least need one specific ressource (coal, oil or uranium).

Promos linked to ressources could give bonuses as (for exemple, it's just an idea):
- copper +10% strenght ( melee units, mounted units,...) named "Copper Weapons"
- iron +15% strenght ( as above ) named "Iron Weapons"
- salpeter +10% strenght ( gunpowder units,...) named "Superior Guns"
- ....... to continue..........

This is just an idea. It could be interesting to have a look at it. It could give some solutions to one of the great problem of the game: when gunpowder arise, and "oil" boats, you are sure to die if you don't have salpeter and oil...

With such a system, you are allowed to build all units but if you own specific ressources you could receive bonuses that make your army stronger.

Comments are welcome.


PS: Sorry Mexico, i don't really like your system. I think it's not adapted to civ4, it's not in the "spirit of the game".

The Frog.
 
Hian the Frog said:
Hi all,

An other solution which completly change our way of playing is to:
- allow the built of ALL units without ressources but only techs.
- giving promos linked to ressources.
- these new promos (which are now linked to ressouces) are available to specific types of units.
- meanwhile, there would have some exceptions. Some lands units ( tanks, humvee,...) and modern naval type units ( ironclad, all oil and uranium boats and subs) would at least need one specific ressource (coal, oil or uranium).

Promos linked to ressources could give bonuses as (for exemple, it's just an idea):
- copper +10% strenght ( melee units, mounted units,...) named "Copper Weapons"
- iron +15% strenght ( as above ) named "Iron Weapons"
- salpeter +10% strenght ( gunpowder units,...) named "Superior Guns"
- ....... to continue..........

This is just an idea. It could be interesting to have a look at it. It could give some solutions to one of the great problem of the game: when gunpowder arise, and "oil" boats, you are sure to die if you don't have salpeter and oil...

With such a system, you are allowed to build all units but if you own specific ressources you could receive bonuses that make your army stronger.

Comments are welcome.


PS: Sorry Mexico, i don't really like your system. I think it's not adapted to civ4, it's not in the "spirit of the game".

The Frog.
I like it. It allows more or less equal access to units, but reserves elite status to those nations that have access to the resources.
 
Ankenaton said:
I like it. It allows more or less equal access to units, but reserves elite status to those nations that have access to the resources.

I like it also but they should have different effects and this should not apply to all resources. There should be some "hurtful" effects for destroying an improvement then not being able to build units with an extra 15% strength or some whatever % increase.

Some resources I think should remain the way they are now are horses, oil, and maybe some more. just some preliminary ideas. I think without horses you should not be able to build mounted units no exceptions. Without oil i think you would not be able to build tanks and fighter jets. And elephants too, no elephants mean you cant ride elephants:D

possibly iron also, iron is a big upgrade from bronze weapons. A knight with strength 10 with iron, and without iron and bronze you are able to build cataphracts with strength 7. So in some cases the elite status is in placed. But the idea should apply to other resources.

I think the new idea could apply to timber(not even in the game yet, but oh well), saltpeter, and possiby some more. For timber you can build superior ship units. With access to saltpeter resource i think +25% production for gunpowder units. Or just early gunpowder units maybe including rifleman age.
 
Houman?,
Cathage again?,

did you install a horse resource nearby? or at the very least one in Africa preferably closer to Nubia or whatever???
 
Hian's Post, and all subsequent agreeing with it

I hate it. This is a bad idea.

This is a realism mod, not a 'fair and balanced gamplay' mod. You cannot make swords and axes without metal. Nor tanks and battleships without both the appropriate materials and oil to power them.

Allowing access to restricted units by those who do not have the resources, and relegating the resources to only a promotion, practically defeats the purpose of having them, and seriously devalues the strategy of siezing resources so as to deny them to your opponents.

Fights over pools of oil, or uranium deposits is one of the most tense and enjoyable parts of Civ, and I would really hate to see it removed, and realism/U] denied, in the name of fairness.

I am vehemently opposed to this concept, and I will fight it to my last.

WarKirby
 
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