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GeoModder
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A follow up:
Looking into the Mendelev table, the following metals seem the minimum for a technological society to construct its tools of trade:
And I guess diamonds are still every colony girl's best friend.
For food resources, personally I have a hard time believing that any type of native flora/fauna can be made edible for humans, my take on natural planet resources is that extractions of them might be good for medicines, or vitamines. So in this case we could just use any fluff from SMAC (like Razorbeaks, or glowmites, or fungalroots, or sandkrill and offer the player a benefit like QuickGene (quicker genetransplant integration), Interface Gel (to have a better interface between Mind and Machine), Psionic Enhancer (the native trait), cattle fodder for the time colonists breed their own cattle again in pasture domes or on the open surface.
I would suggest, linked with the discovery of genetic techs, that colonists are able to introduce first earth plants, and later cattle on Planet. So basically I endorse that plots don't have a
output on their own, whatever the level of rain. Only with tankfarms and Biogenetics would there be a reliable source of food available in the early decades. Also, I would go for a system in which earthlife must grow first before it reaches its full output, especially the fauna as to simulate the growing herds on this plot.
Okay, think this is enough of a read for now.
Looking into the Mendelev table, the following metals seem the minimum for a technological society to construct its tools of trade:
With these, one can made the alloys for the basics.
And I guess diamonds are still every colony girl's best friend.
For food resources, personally I have a hard time believing that any type of native flora/fauna can be made edible for humans, my take on natural planet resources is that extractions of them might be good for medicines, or vitamines. So in this case we could just use any fluff from SMAC (like Razorbeaks, or glowmites, or fungalroots, or sandkrill and offer the player a benefit like QuickGene (quicker genetransplant integration), Interface Gel (to have a better interface between Mind and Machine), Psionic Enhancer (the native trait), cattle fodder for the time colonists breed their own cattle again in pasture domes or on the open surface.
I would suggest, linked with the discovery of genetic techs, that colonists are able to introduce first earth plants, and later cattle on Planet. So basically I endorse that plots don't have a
output on their own, whatever the level of rain. Only with tankfarms and Biogenetics would there be a reliable source of food available in the early decades. Also, I would go for a system in which earthlife must grow first before it reaches its full output, especially the fauna as to simulate the growing herds on this plot.Okay, think this is enough of a read for now.
GRM7584
King
First off: I think it is vital that a component which alters research speed based on available resources (TheLopez made one, I think) be present. Available samples of native flora and fauna should increase bio research, extensive availability of rare chemical elements should increase metallurgical research, and so on.
I am assuming a planet along the lines of the one seen in SMAC: The atmosphere is not perfect, but is close enough to earth's that a supplemental filter can be worn by colonists for safe travel outside, and environmental protective wear would be recommended but not needed. In addition, it has plenty of surface water (practically necessary, if the atmosphere is similar) and sports carbon-based life. This leaves a few things up in the air: For strategic resources, are there fossil fuels, and what is the mineral composition of the planet? For "Health" resources, just how much biodiversity are we dealing with? For "Happy" resources, just what is it about weird stuff you find on an alien planet that makes colonists happy enough to forget why you've just dumped half their population into the recycling tanks to get enough resources for that shiny new network node?
Strategic Resources: Representing individual elements may be out of character for both SMAC and science fiction in general: there are a lot more usable metals than can be reasonably implemented. Use broader categories as the resources:
-Heavy Metals - (Mostly base metals; metals that react easily with acids. Oxidizes and corrodes easily. Mainly Industrial applications for a space-age society...would be more important shortly after planetfall.)
-Light Metals - (Mostly noble metals; term to cover all the useful alloying materials...Aluminium, Titanium, precious metals. More important for High-Tech industry and applications, including weapons and armor.)
-Radioactives - (What it says on the tin. Uranium, Plutonium,
, that sort of thing. It's not just for primitive nuclear reactors during the initial years of planetfall: it's also vital for all that research into quantum mechanics, building supercolliders, you get the idea.)
Health Resources: Obviously, the colonists aren't going to hop out of their rocketships and start chowing down on 6-legged alien sheep. Instead, native flora and fauna represent something entirely different: Medicine was already mentioned, and that's a part of it. But researching the native life, as in SMAC, should give the colonists an increasing understanding of how their presence impacts the local environment: what was safe to dump on earth might cause the local alien forests to degenerate and emit envirosuit-breaching toxins on the new planet.
Luxury Resources: This seems like the area with the most possibilities for creative interpretation. Is there some amazing new narcotic that can be harvested for great happiness, but which will also turn your people into dunces? I do not think that any civ4 luxuries should be present...all the precious metals that are mined on the new planet will likely be going straight to industry and science. Flora and Fauna-based luxuries, yes, but there needs to be a plain and sensible reason. Colonists on another planet aren't going to be impressed by jewelry made from space-elephant tusks, but they might be impressed with a gland harvested from a space elephant that makes their synapses fire faster and extends their lifespan.
Neutronium is degenerate matter, like metallic hydrogen. It is super-dense, and is found in super-dense places. If that sort of thing is in the game, it will be produced in a lab environment, like Geomodder said. For asteroids dumping interesting metals on the planet: that is a very real possibility, the earliest examples of iron weaponry and tools on earth were constructed with meteoric iron, which was often an iron alloy, and thus was far more usable with the low metalworking technology of ancient times. Perhaps there are large groups of asteroids composed of platinum alloys in this new system? That's an exaggeration, but finding useful surface metal of that nature might make a solid Goodie Hut/Unity Pod event.
I am assuming a planet along the lines of the one seen in SMAC: The atmosphere is not perfect, but is close enough to earth's that a supplemental filter can be worn by colonists for safe travel outside, and environmental protective wear would be recommended but not needed. In addition, it has plenty of surface water (practically necessary, if the atmosphere is similar) and sports carbon-based life. This leaves a few things up in the air: For strategic resources, are there fossil fuels, and what is the mineral composition of the planet? For "Health" resources, just how much biodiversity are we dealing with? For "Happy" resources, just what is it about weird stuff you find on an alien planet that makes colonists happy enough to forget why you've just dumped half their population into the recycling tanks to get enough resources for that shiny new network node?
Strategic Resources: Representing individual elements may be out of character for both SMAC and science fiction in general: there are a lot more usable metals than can be reasonably implemented. Use broader categories as the resources:
-Heavy Metals - (Mostly base metals; metals that react easily with acids. Oxidizes and corrodes easily. Mainly Industrial applications for a space-age society...would be more important shortly after planetfall.)
-Light Metals - (Mostly noble metals; term to cover all the useful alloying materials...Aluminium, Titanium, precious metals. More important for High-Tech industry and applications, including weapons and armor.)
-Radioactives - (What it says on the tin. Uranium, Plutonium,
, that sort of thing. It's not just for primitive nuclear reactors during the initial years of planetfall: it's also vital for all that research into quantum mechanics, building supercolliders, you get the idea.)Spoiler Hydrocarbons and Silicates :
Health Resources: Obviously, the colonists aren't going to hop out of their rocketships and start chowing down on 6-legged alien sheep. Instead, native flora and fauna represent something entirely different: Medicine was already mentioned, and that's a part of it. But researching the native life, as in SMAC, should give the colonists an increasing understanding of how their presence impacts the local environment: what was safe to dump on earth might cause the local alien forests to degenerate and emit envirosuit-breaching toxins on the new planet.
Spoiler Flora :
Spoiler Fauna :
Luxury Resources: This seems like the area with the most possibilities for creative interpretation. Is there some amazing new narcotic that can be harvested for great happiness, but which will also turn your people into dunces? I do not think that any civ4 luxuries should be present...all the precious metals that are mined on the new planet will likely be going straight to industry and science. Flora and Fauna-based luxuries, yes, but there needs to be a plain and sensible reason. Colonists on another planet aren't going to be impressed by jewelry made from space-elephant tusks, but they might be impressed with a gland harvested from a space elephant that makes their synapses fire faster and extends their lifespan.
Neutronium is degenerate matter, like metallic hydrogen. It is super-dense, and is found in super-dense places. If that sort of thing is in the game, it will be produced in a lab environment, like Geomodder said. For asteroids dumping interesting metals on the planet: that is a very real possibility, the earliest examples of iron weaponry and tools on earth were constructed with meteoric iron, which was often an iron alloy, and thus was far more usable with the low metalworking technology of ancient times. Perhaps there are large groups of asteroids composed of platinum alloys in this new system? That's an exaggeration, but finding useful surface metal of that nature might make a solid Goodie Hut/Unity Pod event.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Yeah, but what gameplay effects will these have?
GeoModder
Deity
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If a faction fails to link them up, they or won't be able to construct certain stuff, or constructing the stuff takes longer (meaning that having those "basic" resources linked up enables a player to construct in less turns a network node, a rover, an early secret project or two, stuff like that).
It's indeed not really necessary, and can be omitted but I have a hard time thinking of other "vital" metals which can't be switched by some other metal as well.
Perhaps GRM7584 idea to divide them in general classes has merit from this point of view.
It's indeed not really necessary, and can be omitted but I have a hard time thinking of other "vital" metals which can't be switched by some other metal as well.
Perhaps GRM7584 idea to divide them in general classes has merit from this point of view.
Gerikes
User of Run-on Sentences.
I kind of liked the idea of having the world start pretty inhospitable, but be able to terraform the planet (possibly using policies enacted in diplomacy) to eventually allow a more breathable system that allows for increased productivity. The Planeteer factions would probably vote it down.
All-natural soma?
It seems that others have a pretty heightened grasp of metals and construction than I do, so I'm going to trust a lot of what's being said.
I smell an easter egg...
I'm thinking this is a "when". While I agree that having a player build improvements that just build carrots over green beens is overkill, I think that there should at least be the option to start "living off the native land". The idea of Planet defending itself (which has been discussed before) from threats in this light could be how the food is foraged. One improvement might be more Planet-friendly than another, although would have other disadvantages.
I can't find the post, but one thing mentioned was that in order to achieve a "don't piss off planet" vibe, there could be a few different types of natural Flora, some bad (poisonous, probably would lower health for the plot, among other things), some good (+ health or + food). You can always plant good flora, assuming you have the right setup, but flora can spawn near your base or spread (similar to forests in Civ4), and will be "good" or "bad" depending on how planet-friendly you have been thus far.
Perhaps you can take a look at my post here regarding NLF (Native Life Forms). It's by no means what we're doing, in fact no one really has commented on it, just something I'm particularly fond of. I'm sure it could go along with your idea here.
I'm sure that more fun than seeing these creative life forms is being able to control them!
I think most of what we consider to be "precious" is so because of the way we define precious. Shiny objects will get more attention, but why are diamonds so amazingly popular and expensive. Sure, they're shiny, but I think it has more to do with marketing
When colonists arrive at a new planet, I'm sure that there would be a bunch of different items that, given a different set of scenarios, would become popular or not, even though they're the same items. A metal object that glows different colors might be great for creating atmosphere at home like a lava-lamp, or it could viewed as a frightening object of impending doom.
Basically, I think we could really come up with anything, and so long as we can sell it to the players, then it's possible that those who colonize Planet would be able to sell it to the colonists.
A unity pod would be the obvious replacement for goodie huts, but I think that impact craters could work too. The graphics might be a bit strange, but the gameplay would work out. Perhaps impact craters show where future resources may lie, providing players a reason for developing near them, similar to how players tend to develop near a mountain thinking that there's a possibility of finding iron when they gain the necessary resource? I really can't tell if this would be a good thing or a bad thing, which I would lead to believe that it's probably a bad thing, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.
I like your thinking. I'm not sure I have the mind capable of coming up with the actual names or definitions, but if you have any ideas on how the resource system might be modified slightly from Civ4, feel free to talk about them. Say if something works neat in your head, but would require strategic resources to work differently, it can be arranged.
GRM7584
King
Gerikes said:
I did like the planetary 'terraforming' options in SMAC's diplo assembly...Launch Solar Shade or Heat Ice Caps. If those could be implemented, it would open up other possibilities, with varying effects on planet's environment, and appropriate "Ecology" flavor that encouraged or discouraged different factions in their votes (Fungicide Ban [Prevents application of Fungicide promotion for formers, prevents existing promotions from functioning], Fungus Preservation Laws [Prevents "Remove Fungus" mission for any tile that is touching less than 4 other fungus tiles], Nano Enrichment [begins a planet-wide program of altering soil chemistry towards terran norms with nanites, increasing all food yields and forest spread while seriuosly miffing the ecology], and so on)
Gerikes said:
My metallurgical knowledge is limited to internet sources; but for a science fiction scenario it feels wrong to be element-specific. What about Beryllium? That's used in significant amounts, in numerous applications from telecommunications to aerospace, but it probably wouldn't make a list of specific elements to use as strategic resources. A big part of this is players would say "Beryllium....how am I supposed to know what to use *that* for?", and have to run to the SMACopedia to read a paragraph on how awesome Beryllium is and why they need it to build their flechette defense system.
Gerikes said:I smell an easter egg...
Blame woodelf for the 6-legged sheep comment, it's from that Mindworm tube building graphic thread.
Gerikes said:
Innately hostile plant life sounds interesting, and I quite like the fungus mechanic in SMAC. It's nasty when you start, but one possible path of exploitation is to increase your PLANET rating and head for techs that improve yields in the Fungus, even planting fungus to take advantage of this. In that, I see what you mean, but I think that the very act of planting "good" flora over "bad" flora should piss off the ecology, since you're fiddling with the balance. Perhaps it would be less of an effect than building farms with Terran flora/fauna in them.
It might do to set out several paths for the player, with some intermingling: Terraforming, Hybridizing, and Adapting. You can Terraform things towards Earth, along the lines of Farms/Condensors/Mirrors/Boreholes from SMAC, which really screws with the ecology but has big rewards. You can Hybridize and engineer terran flora and fauna with alien flora and fauna to create a middle ground, which is reflected in a "tree farm" sort of economy seen in SMAC, but which would also include farms, or making hostile resources less hostile. You can also Adapt your own colonists to live off native life, IE the aforementioned fungus path.
Gerikes said:
Absolutely, and I probably should have included that. Later technologies would allow for those nasty barbarians from early game to be homegrown as tame military units with later biotech.
Gerikes said:
That's the creative possibilities part, and it's wide open. The Glowrocks thing reminds me of the notion of the modern fad; in the same way that Ivory and Fur are obsoleted by later manufacturing technologies in vanilla Civ, perhaps some luxuries could be "Fad Items", useful for a certain amount of time before falling out of favor. One might go so far as to make "fad luxuries" into its own mechanic...every time a new social technology is discovered for the first time, a new resource is picked as a fad luxury and an old resource is phased out as a fad luxury, while the underlying uses for the resources still apply. Sure, Razorbeaks can be fun pets, but they are SOOOO last cycle.
Gerikes said:
Civ's default city recommendation system (Blue circles indicating where an AI would prioritize settlement) already seems to take into account invisible resources, so it does seem to be sensible to me to create something to show that there will be a resource there one day. I don't know if that something should always be an impact crater, though, as I would imagine the "material" resources as being visible practically from the start, with only the "Living" commodities as requiring research to properly use.
The impact crater does sound interesting in terms of having a "different" graphic for unity pods that aren't actually unity pods...SMAC liked to throw little weird anomalies instead of the expected unity pod at you. Oh, we thought it was a unity pod, and it totally looked like one from a distance, but its actually an alien artifact/warp rift/nest of mind worms. Different graphics for different exploration possibilities would be nice (One possible result of 'exploring' an impact crater might be "There are a higher quantity of Heavy Metals in this impact site than orbital prospecting indicated; a new resource has been discovered!").
Gerikes said:
Spoiler Verylong :
Spoiler Example :
A simpler alternative, and one which is tossed around a lot (I saw some threads on apolyton to the effect), is to make strategic resources increase the speed with which units are built. It might be a more viable, albeit (from my perspective) less interesting approach.
In EITHER approach, strategic resources do not represent the only source of something: rather, they represent a region in which that resource is easily accessible or of exceptional quality. They should under no circumstances prevent a faction from building something, as that definitely goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod.
Gerikes
User of Run-on Sentences.
These could all be done, but since they're related to diplomacy, I'm probably going to try to keep it in mind for later, since it would be a big change.
I think we were only really thinking being able to plant good fungus. Bad fungus is just something that pops up, and if you don't mess with it, it will become good after awhile.
And I think a lot of this could be wrapped into the concept of each player's Planet rating (whether it is a visible number or something that is kept track of in the SDK but not shown to the player), which is lowered/heightened through using Civics, creating eco-friendly/hazardous buildings and improvements, etc.), and also could do a part of the global Planet rating (similar to FFH's "Armageddon counter").
I think that's a neat idea. I'm not sure how well it would fit into the idea of creating a SMAC world. Perhaps it's just me thinking that a future civilization would probably be above consumerism
Actually, it doesn't. The only thing it will "cheat" on is if the tile itself has a bonus. When the player or ai is searching for a spot can see it or not, it looks at the surrounding plots of the tile it's checking for but only takes bonuses into account if it can currently see it. So, it doesn't take into account bonuses that the player can't see except for that one center plot it's checking.
That's true enough. SMAC even had that where a unity pod might form a resource after hitting it. Would sure give another reason to explore first. I could also imagine impact craters being at the bottom of oceans as well. That would save us from having to think of how to get the graphics embedded into the ground, unless of course the water runs out.
That all looks good to me. This could also be interesting from the NLF's as combat units perspective. If we used a sort of evolution-tree, players creating an all-NLF army could forgo the need to create large buildings to create higher-up units, which would give us leeway to allow some penalties for Planet players who don't get their daily recommended amount of planet-destroying manufacturing power
I like the first idea better, which is strange since I would think I would go for the simpler approach here. The reason is because in order to get a bonus, you need the bonus AND the building to process the bonus into something useful.
If I read this correctly, heavy metals would be used (with other buildings) to increase ground force productivity (perhaps submersible sea units as well?) and light metals would be used for air and, I would assume, sea. Just for my own curiosity, what type of metals would be better for out-of-the-atmosphere ships?
I'm not sure how it goes against the character of a SMAC sort of mod, but I agree with the idea anyway.
GRM7584
King
Gerikes said:
I thought you had meant specific sorts of resources; I do like the idea of an "avenging fungus" being different than normal fungus, and it fits well.
Gerikes said:
Increasing the Flowering Counter idea to represent planetwide terraforming decisions would be a great implementation of their effect on the environment. Connecting Planet Rating not only to fungus and worms but to other improvements would be very interesting, and I think a related possibility is a slight retooling of the Planet and Industry Ratings. A negative planet rating would represent an attitude of "We're terraforming this land to be like Earth." instead of an attitude of "We're polluting and don't really care.", as it is represented in SMAC. What this would also mean is that having a negative Planet rating would improve a player's ability to terraform.
A positive planet rating would signify "We're learning to live in harmony with Planet as it is." How this relates to the Industry trait: A positive Industry rating, in addition to providing more production, would cause more pollution. Thus, while a positive Planet rating will have a strong mediating effect on a positive industry rating's pollution (due to restraints and understanding of the ecology), having a negative Planet rating *and* a positive Industry rating could cause serious ecological damage, between the pollution and the terraforming.
So: A "Terraformer" player will want a low Planet rating for their purposes since they're going to be clearing out all that fungus anyhow, an "Adapter" player will want a high Planet rating for their purposes, and a "Hybrid" player will want something in between, since they're still improving land and terraforming (planting forests and farms), but at the same time they aren't as well equipped as the terraformer to fend off angry fungus, and thus can't afford it. Oddly enough, this has a lot of parallels to FFH's Good/Neutral/Evil system in regards to the counter's effects, and the creeping "hell territory" that the neutrals can't defend against.
Some of this won't work out quite so swell depending on how you deal with civics and social engineering, but that has its own thread I see
Gerikes said:I think that's a neat idea. I'm not sure how well it would fit into the idea of creating a SMAC world. Perhaps it's just me thinking that a future civilization would probably be above consumerism
Part of it struck me because I remembered some of the flavor text in a late-game interlude in SMAC, talking about a new dance fad sweeping the faction where people mime clawing at their eyes to simulate the motions seen by victims in a mindworm attack. And I certainly hope the Morganites aren't above consumerism...their whole faction is based on it! If a fad luxury system were implemented, one of the Morganite's special traits would be that they received double benefits from fad luxuries.
Gerikes said:That's true enough. SMAC even had that where a unity pod might form a resource after hitting it. Would sure give another reason to explore first. I could also imagine impact craters being at the bottom of oceans as well. That would save us from having to think of how to get the graphics embedded into the ground, unless of course the water runs out.
Undersea discoveries? That would make the discovery of Deep Pressure Hulls a sort of exploration renaissance, as factions sent new Undersea Explorers to find all the neat impact craters on the ocean floor.
Gerikes said:That all looks good to me. This could also be interesting from the NLF's as combat units perspective. If we used a sort of evolution-tree, players creating an all-NLF army could forgo the need to create large buildings to create higher-up units, which would give us leeway to allow some penalties for Planet players who don't get their daily recommended amount of planet-destroying manufacturing power
An NLF-reliant faction would also likely receive production and morale bonuses based more on their planet rating and the flowering counter, as was mentioned in that thread you linked...there is also FFH's mechanic for vampires feeding on populations to gain XP. Mindworms lay eggs when they burrow into people's brains, so perhaps an NLF army could "draft" units out of the citizenry, with better results when there are brood pits/bio labs/etc available, so that NLF users can use their buildings for more than just lifeform production bonuses.
-1
"Stop eating us!"Gerikes said:
Heavy Metals would be mostly useful for buildings that provide "Generic Production", since they have a lot of industrial and construction applications but aren't favorable for modern "units" in a civ sense. They could also be used for any appropriately Heavy Unit, that could afford a lot of mass to compensate for 'weaker' armor, in exchange for cheaper costs; battleships come to mind.
Light Metals would be useful for any units, but it would provide the biggest bonuses for Aerospace and High Tech Manufacturing applications. So, a light, technologically advanced watercraft could benefit from them, but a hulking cruiser less so.
Radioactives are another key issue: they're vital for the Reactors that every unit uses in SMAC. So, it might make sense to add an additional XML tag for the building scheme: One which first checks for the presence of another building before applying its bonuses. I'll provide an example.
Spoiler Long Example with lots of mechanics :
It looks more complex than it is, but it may be too much for a casual player to swallow. I'm obviously biased, since its coming from me.
Gerikes said:
SMAC didn't have any resources; it usually mentioned a *lack* of resources, and the need for artificial workarounds. Maybe I'm just stuck on the artificial fossil fuels thing. A SMAC mod using civ 4's resource system should, in my eyes, only allow resources to influence a faction's decisions on what to build, rather than determining them outright, as it is in vanilla civ.
Gerikes
User of Run-on Sentences.
This could work out. If we go with the Social Engineering, we'd have to redefine these two well, or it might cause confusion for former SMAC players. If we go with Civics, then we wouldn't have much of a problem: Somewhere (on the main screen, in city screens, in a "Planet" screen..) we'll have a little tidbit about how the player's Planet score is doing, and more importantly, what that means.
I'm not sure about this. I would think that doing things that are related to Terraforming Planet to be more like Earth would affect your points, not the other way around. Unless you're saying a revolving system, where the more you terraform, the lower your score, and thus the more you can terraform?
I've never really liked the idea of having to find new bonuses. So, if anything, this would probably just make resources that appeared on the bottom show up. Which means they would act more like resources than underwater goodie-huts.
An NLF-reliant faction would also likely receive production and morale bonuses based more on their planet rating and the flowering counter, as was mentioned in that thread you linked...there is also FFH's mechanic for vampires feeding on populations to gain XP. Mindworms lay eggs when they burrow into people's brains, so perhaps an NLF army could "draft" units out of the citizenry, with better results when there are brood pits/bio labs/etc available, so that NLF users can use their buildings for more than just lifeform production bonuses.
-1
If I understand you correctly, a citizen drafted in a city for a Planeteer could actually be fed to the NLF's to help them grow? I would implement this just to see that mad message
Alternatively, some Planet bonuses could be used as production factories similar to the metals idea, but with medicinal or horomonal growth uses for "Planet Resources". While the Metals Resources are specific to typical units, the Planet resources are specific to planet units.
Not sure what you mean here. What is the "other" building to check for? If I recall correctly, you would make the bonuses cumulative.
No problem, I've already labeled Special Abilities and Special Damage Types
I believe what you're saying is that we can't put Unit references in the Buildings XML because Units are loaded after buildings. We could always use UnitClasses instead, which is loaded before buildings. However, I think in this case it's actually better to put the buildings that the unit's production is affected by actually in the Unit XML anyway.
I think that with some touching up and simplifying it down to just a few rules, it wouldn't be to bad. For example, when describing the effects, I think it would be ok to not have to differentiate between "Generic Buildings" and "Specialized buildings". Perhaps just be able to say each unit's production effectiveness is increased depending on the power of the buildings in the city that can affect it, and that the power of the buildings in the city are increased depending on the resources connected to it.
However, this would provide complex combinations to be formed. In your example, some buildings get better bonuses from Heavy metals, while others get better from Light metals, still more get their best bonuses from Radioactives. Perhaps if there were a way of simplifying this, such as having the different domains have their own group of buildings. Each group would have (with much better names, of course) a normal, a secondary, and an advanced building. Using completely unsmac-ified naming conventions, 'cuz I'm not good at stuff like that...
- Ground Units
- Normal Barracks
- Secondary Barracks
- Advanced Barracks
- Sea Units
- Normal Harbor
- Secondary Harbor
- Advanced Harmor
The idea is that if you understand how what type of resource is needed to make "Normal Barracks" production best accelerated, you'll know what resource is needed to make "Normal Harbor" buildings best accelerated.
Of course, this would severely cut down on our ability to tweak it to our wants, and I'm sure no-one would agree on the naming conventions. However, I believe that one of the things that SMAC got wrong (and so did a lot of other sci-fi items) is that the names didn't adequately tell us what it was describing in many cases. I'm not recommending we use "Normal", "Secondary", and "Advanced", but if we come up with a convention that can give players a hint as to how to best run that building, we would cut the amount that the player would have to learn to just one domain and the others would follow suit.
Now, I don't have any problem with making them all separate. After all, I think as a SMAC mod we're not looking for the recently-converted RTS crowd. This is just another option that I feel responsible to throw onto the table
Finally, I'm still split about whether or not this idea would benefit from limiting completely unit production to only cities with necessary buildings (in other words, enforcing building prereqs for units). On one hand, it makes sense that a new city shouldn't be able to start building hyper-advanced needlejets, on the other hand I would think that the need for resources and the production speed enhancing buildings (plus the fact that I don't think I've ever had to complain about new cities building large units too fast ;P) would be enough to simulate that effect, without having to go so far as to actually force a player to make the building. Especially since I imagine a role for tactical bombing, where you can possibly take out a certain building of a city. Take out the one needed to build the unit, and although you have a full infrastructure for producing the unit, you just don't have the data for the blueprints in the building that just was bombed, so you're completely stuck. I think we should avoid that. Having multiple OR prereqs would help, but I think you'd still hit the same problem with a large-enough city.
Ok, so I guess I'm not exactly "split".
Ugh, I wanted to keep this one short, too.
GRM7584
King
Gerikes said:
I meant that Planet rating would represent a philosophy or approach, and that in turn affected things like Terraforming rates; in retrospect, I can see how that doesn't make as much sense as being the other way around. Perhaps planet rating should be removed from the social engineering realm altogether and tied in with the Armageddon (flowering) Clock instead, on a faction-by-faction basis, as was suggested elsewhere. Thus, all terraforming a given faction does decreases their planet rating (potentially making future terraforming easier, in a sort of revolving system like you said) while also increasing the flowering clock planetwide.
Gerikes said:If I understand you correctly, a citizen drafted in a city for a Planeteer could actually be fed to the NLF's to help them grow? I would implement this just to see that mad message
Alternatively, some Planet bonuses could be used as production factories similar to the metals idea, but with medicinal or horomonal growth uses for "Planet Resources". While the Metals Resources are specific to typical units, the Planet resources are specific to planet units.
Yes and yes. It might also be interesting to tie in the number of Fungus squares in the city radius with NLF production. There are already methods in place to check for numbers of features (forests/jungles), right? Would it be possible to change the effect from health/unhealth to a production increase for a specific unit domain?
Gerikes said:
The other building to check for would be *any* type of base production facility, either a generic factory or a domain-specific factory. This step would only be used if it was decided that there shouldn't be "hard" pre-req for units to need a certain type of building, but still wanted to preserve a sense of "units are built much more efficiently when you have a place to build them".
Gerikes said:
Prereq and inter-related buildings are both meant to be flavorful; if they don't add enough to gameplay, they shouldn't be in. I normally wouldn't think of prereqs as being a good idea, but the system works very well in FFH, where each "land" unit line has a specific prereq building needed for building or upgrading any unit in the line.
For a simpler direction than prereqs and inter-relation, you could just have 2 archetypes of production-boosting facilities: Generic Factories and Domain-Specific Factories. Generic Factories are the Forge and Factory of vanilla civ 4; Domain-Specific Factories are the Drydocks of vanilla civ 4. In this case, both would rely mostly on resource availability for bonus production, rather than being "powered".
Under this setup, both types of factories could conceivably receive upgrades throughout the game to represent improving fabrication techs. The tree would be rather simple, and look something like this:
Original Building: Assembly Plant
First Upgrade Line --> Automation: Assembly Plant --> Matter Converters: Assembly Plant
Second Upgrade Line --> Nanite Quality Control: Assembly Plant --> Nanoreplicators: Assembly Plant
With the default factory being more productive with a given resource, and the more advanced additions requiring gradually more Light Metals and Radioactives to be effective. Each factory would have a set of "upgrades", either the same listed above, or varying for each factory (in which case the tree might need simplification into one upgrade line for each non-generic factory)
Generic Factory = Assembly Plant (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Generic Factory = Reactor Plant (Theme: Radioactives)
Generic Factory = Electronics Plant (Theme: Light Metals)
Infantry Factory = Armoury (Theme: Light Metals)
Vehicle Factory = Vehicle Plant (Theme: Light/Heavy Metals)
Air Factory = Hangar (Theme: Light Metals)
Naval Factory = Shipyard (Theme: Heavy Metals)
Space Factory = Launch Facility (Theme: Light Metals/Radioactives)
Gerikes said:
I suppose it isn't any fun when someone comes in and bombs your ball-bearing plant, rendering you unable to produce new units that need those ball bearings...
Gerikes
User of Run-on Sentences.
Well, whenever I say "Planet Rating" or "Planet Score", I'm thinking about a variable which works like the Planet Counter, but instead of globally it is rather for each specific Player. For example. Deidre might accumulate a very large Planet rating after building a bunch of pro-eco buildings and helping destroy anti-eco ones. If SE is used, a high "Planet" category and a low "Industry" category might help to improve your Player Planet Rating. Of course, if Civics are used we don't have this discussion
Not sure if there is such a function, but that could be easily accomplished. As long as it would be visually appealing to have a player's tiles completely surrounded by fungus, which I assume would eventually be an outcome unless we made a reason for it not to
I guess it's just a matter of implementation, which I can handle. Typically, in cases like these, when you're looking for production bonuses, you take a look at ALL the buildings on the plot, see which ones would have the effect, and sum up their total. Even though you know that there are only three specific ones, to make it more generic and allow for not having to change the code when you add the XML to another building later, you check every possible building anyway.
I'm not saying they don't add to gameplay, but rather they might add to confusion. Of course, we could always just say that the target audience of our mod are those willing to weed through all the different building types, will take the time to learn the system, and we'd be done with it. That's probably a good question to ask now over a month into development
I'm not so sure about "upgrading" factories, I liked your idea of having the factories be able to be separate, so if you wanted to you could skip a step by making separate buildings. But that's just my opinion, I'd like to hear another's.
Ok, reading over that list, I see why you originally made the plants a sci-fi theme, it's not as much fun when they're simple to understand like that, it takes away their sci-fi aura.
Are we looking into the possibility of producing seeds in the cities and then having our terraformers plant wheat, corn, or rice eventually? There is a modcomp that I linked to in some thread where resources are planted.
We'd need checks and balances so you couldn't plant too many Earth resources in a concentrated area or maybe there would be a chance they didn't take or they eventually get consumed and need to be replanted. We could also have terrain need to go fallow or have terraformers fertilize or ammend the soil before Earth crops can be planted.
I'd think planting and harvesting grapes to eventually make real Earth wine would make the people very happy. Same with barely or hops.
Too complicated or not a direction we're headed?
We'd need checks and balances so you couldn't plant too many Earth resources in a concentrated area or maybe there would be a chance they didn't take or they eventually get consumed and need to be replanted. We could also have terrain need to go fallow or have terraformers fertilize or ammend the soil before Earth crops can be planted.
I'd think planting and harvesting grapes to eventually make real Earth wine would make the people very happy. Same with barely or hops.
Too complicated or not a direction we're headed?
Gerikes
User of Run-on Sentences.
Not too complicated, but I just don't like the "seed" idea. I'd like to hear what others think though.
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