Revolution: with BarbarianCiv, Rebellion, AIAutoPlay

jdog5000 · Feb 27, 2007

bardolph said:
How do you run these "Automated Tests"? Is that the "AI Auto-Play" feature? When I try to activate it (SHIFT-CTRL-X), nothing happens.

Yes, the AIAutoPlay feature runs the game completely automated, I'm sure that's what glider1's referring to. If holding down CTRL and SHIFT and pressing X doesn't bring up a popup (and you haven't messed with the config .ini file), then the mod has not loaded properly and is not functioning. My recommendation is try installing it again, making sure to follow the instructions on the FP. Let me know if it's still an issue after than.

jdog5000 · Feb 27, 2007

Quaetam said:
Does Revolutions work hotseat?

I do not know the answer to that ... it depends on how hotseat works. It's possible it would work ... you could always fake hotseat by using the ChangePlayer logic to switch to the next human player at the end of your turn :mischief:

bardolph · Feb 27, 2007

OK, I see what I was doing wrong. I needed to install the entire mod package, not just CivGameCoreDLL.dll.

So, just to recap, I unzipped Revolution_081w.zip and placed it in my MODS folder for Warlords, I then replaced CivGameCoreDLL.dll with the merged Revolution/BetterAI DLL, and placed CIV4HandicapInfo.xml into MODS/Revolution/Assets/xml/gameinfo.

I started a new game playing Fractal/Huge/Epic with a random Civ (it picked Monty for me). It seemed to be working. I got the dialog message at the beginning of the game, letting me know that I was playing the Revolution mod.

Later in this game, I crashed to desktop with an "illegal division by zero" error (According to the Visual Studio Debugger), at 1450 BC . I've attached my save game.

Here's the stack trace (if it helps):

Spoiler :

EDIT: Ick. Started a new game (this time I made sure the mod was in the Warlords install folder instead of under my Windows profile), but still got the same error. Anyone else running into this? Running the game under the automated turn player did not cause this problem.

EDIT: Interestingly enough, if I restore the save and ask AIAutoPlay to play 1 turn for me, I can get through the turn change without crashing. Not sure what's going on, but at least I have a workaround.

glider1 · Feb 28, 2007

bardolph said:
Interestingly enough, if I restore the save and ask AIAutoPlay to play 1 turn for me, I can get through the turn change without crashing. Not sure what's going on, but at least I have a workaround.

Yeah in one of my automated tests this happened as well. I took a rough look at what caused it. In my case I was pretty sure that the AI allocated a warrior to a water square! The bug was so rare and I found the same workaround that Bardolph did, so concluded it was a Better AI issue and not that important.

By auto testing I meant exactly as Jdog said. Ctrl-Shift-X in Revolutions, and when I was comparing with Better-AI only, I used the autorun option in CivilizationIV.ini.

You can convince yourself that both Revolutions and Better AI are both running when you see the normal Revolutions Mod screens when the game loads, and when you hold down ALT and hover over your leaders name in the nation list bottom right. You will see ---Better AI--- listed along with the normal stats.

The only curiosity as far as the merge went is why the compiled DLL with Revolutions and Better AI is actually smaller in size than Better AI alone!? Pretty sure that it will be because of some compiler efficiency option that Jdog used.......Hope it's not because of some obscure code slab that didn't go in! If this did happen it must not be a very significant slab....

Would love to hear what happens when people get into a war. Better AI should be marginally smarter. Rumour has it that it should:
1. Pillage better and pick off pillagers better
2. Stacks should be better balanced.
3. It will go into offense more readily when it's cities are garrisoned well enough instead of over garrisoning. (A trap if there be a revolution?!)
4. It should be aware of allocating troops according to their experience.
5. It should coordinate a navy somewhat better
6. It should use spies better for sabotage and for scouting the enemy.
7. various other improvements.

What the AI doesn't appear to do in combat real well is:
1. Use it's generals cleverly.
2. Be immediately ready in defence when war is declared on it. There is an exploitable delay before it organises itself in defence.
3. Don't think that it put's troops into the field in strategic locations other than protecting its resource assets (will be interesting).

These deficiencies might either be over stated or improve with new versions of Better AI. It goes without saying that the AI will get caught with it's pants down in certain situations where it's war effort is stalling and it's people revolt. It will not be prepared for this I don't think. However now that the AI is overall smarter in finance, culture and infrastructure issues, if you increase the difficulty sufficiently, believe me, it won't often get hung up in a war.....you will.

Holly molly, well done on merging the code and moving house Jdog! I wonder if your computer chair was and is....a cardboard box?! Hope you like the new accomodation and location.

Best wishes.

skallben · Mar 5, 2007

So the Revolutions+BetterAI merge is based on BetterAI build from Feb. 2nd. right?
Just want to know what versions I run of my mods so I know what they do :lol:

Im testing it out right now and its fun fun. However a bit about the mechanics.

Im running huge terra map, epic speed. I have had three AI:s get into civil war and get split. The "insurgents" have on all three occations obliderated their former "master". This is triggered by having a rebellion in the capital?

glider1 · Mar 6, 2007

skallben said:
So the Revolutions+BetterAI merge is based on BetterAI build from Feb. 2nd. right?

If you hover over your leaders name in the list of nations bottom right and hold down the ALT key, you'll see stats in the lower left hand corner of the screen. First line tells you that it's Better AI version 23/2/2007.

As for the civil war. It can be triggered by a lot of things! Religious tension? Insufficient cultural growth, wrong labour civic at the wrong time, stayed with Hereditary rule too long, bogged down in a war, running a bad economy etc etc. The rebellion doesn't have to happen only in the capital but not sure about all cases like you describe.

jdog5000 · Mar 6, 2007

I decided to call the merge of Revolution and BetterAI ... RevAI. Inventive I know :crazyeye:

Anyway, the sources will be posted on the FP along with the following merge guide:

How to merge the RevAI code with future versions of BetterAI by Blake:

First, check out the BetterAI source code from the source forge repository, following the instructions located here. You should also have the RevAI sources, either the full or the small version depending on how you want to try the merge.

There are two ways forward from here, the first way should be automated once you get it set up while the second way is more foolproof:

First way: Using SVN and the full source download

Follow the merge instructions from the BetterAI source forge page, located here. I did not go this route, but it should in principle to almost everything for you, you only have to handle cases were Blake and I edited the same lines, of which there are maybe one or two and my changes are always marked.

Second way: Using WinMerge and the small source download

Download a file merging program called WinMerge from winmerge.org. Also check out the online manual for guide on how to use the various features of the program.

You'll then use the compare folders feature to find which files contain differences. Set the 'Left' folder (files will appear on left side of screen, logically) to either BetterAI or the small version of RevAI, and 'Right' to the other. WinMerge will then determine which files contain differences, and you'll need to merge my added code in RevAI into the BetterAI code.

After you tell WinMerge which folders to compare, it will show you a list of all the files in both and whether they are identical, different, or only in one folder. You now have to go through all of the files that are different. Selecting the first one will bring up a side by side comparison of the two files, with the differences highlighted in yellow.

Where there are differences between the files, merge the RevAI changes into the BetterAI changes only when the changes are commented with "REVOLUTION_MOD start" or "AI_AUTOPLAY_MOD start". All of these changes can be find by searching the RevAI file for '_MOD ' (trailing space is important, rules out _MODIFIER things which show up a lot). Where there are differences not commented like this, either leave the BetterAI code as it is, or merge those changes into the RevAI source code. The only reason to do this is so that you can be sure you've checked out every change and the WinMerge will tell you the files are identical ...

Most of my changes in the .cpp files occur in large blocks where I've added new functions. One note of warning, when I went through using WinMerge there was one large block where some BetterAI changes just before a new function of mine were place in the same block with the new function by WinMerge, and I had to merge this part completely by hand. It shouldn't do that to you now that you're starting with merged code, but it might so make sure you check what's being overwritten before pressing the merge direction arrows.

After you have completed this merge, you are well set up to use the first way in the future.

jdog5000 · Mar 6, 2007

glider1 said:
Holly molly, well done on merging the code and moving house Jdog! I wonder if your computer chair was and is....a cardboard box?! Hope you like the new accomodation and location.

Best wishes.

Yeah, it was a little nuts but my new place is very nice

Glad it's working pretty well for you!

jdog5000 · Mar 6, 2007

glider1 said:
If you hover over your leaders name in the list of nations bottom right and hold down the ALT key, you'll see stats in the lower left hand corner of the screen. First line tells you that it's Better AI version 23/2/2007.

As for the civil war. It can be triggered by a lot of things! Religious tension? Insufficient cultural growth, wrong labour civic at the wrong time, stayed with Hereditary rule too long, bogged down in a war, running a bad economy etc etc. The rebellion doesn't have to happen only in the capital but not sure about all cases like you describe.

2/23/07 is when I did the merge actually. I used the BetterAI version from 2/12/07, the most recent at the time (still most recent release I believe).

Lapu-Lapu · Mar 6, 2007

glider1 said:
As for the civil war. It can be triggered by a lot of things! Religious tension? Insufficient cultural growth, wrong labour civic at the wrong time, stayed with Hereditary rule too long, bogged down in a war, running a bad economy etc etc. The rebellion doesn't have to happen only in the capital but not sure about all cases like you describe.

AI seems to definately play smarter - civil wars can break up large empires and cause outright choas for some CIVs, especially during times of war. In my last game where I was the Arabs, playing for most of it at the #1 spot with all of Africa, the Middle East, and India on an Earth2 generated map / Vikings at the #2 spot by about 600 points at the noble level. With not very many allies by the modern times late in the 1980s except for Persia (their rebels took back their two largest cities in the Middle East from our war with them 100 some years ago) who was my only vassal along with friendly CIVs such as 3rd place Aztecs located SE Asia and my lowly Japan in South America.

While I was busy building nukes one after the other after finishing the Manhattan Project, Vikings along with her FOUR VASSALS and THREE allies were waging war with everyone else and annexes the Aztecs. Vikings decide that they have enough on their side and declared war on me! I guess the cold shoulder the last 100 some years and not aiding / failing to meet their outrageous demands for newer technology etc. I unfortunately was using most of my money in resources in research and largely ignoring my military except for the 'colonies' in the Middle East and India for defence.

Half of my Indian colonies fell in five turns when the might of BOTH the Vikings storming down one my Persian colonies in the Middle East along with the Aztecs grabbing most of my Zulu (unfortunately now a Viking vassal from their war with them years ago) colonies in India.

I started pressing buttons!!! Two nukes go off in the capital and the largest city of the Aztecs along with their with their 2nd. In about a dozen turns, rebels rise from the Aztec population and the CIV starts losing its smaller cities. Fearing that I would start dropping ICBMS and incite instabilty along with no easy way to invade my African continent by land (the Earth 2 map script generated Africa as an island

, the Vikings brokered peace after by the late 90s by the time I was able to produce my 3rd nuke. Aztecs slipped to the 5th spot, I lost all my Indian colonies and hanging on to two Persian colonies. My vassal, the Persians were defeated and I was on my own.

The Vikings then finished building the United Nations and in 8 turns, the passed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. I had to cease production of ICBMs and decided that the Space Race would really be the way to go to win this one. The Vikings risked it all and declared war on me AGAIN along with the force of FIVE VASSALS bearing down on me... It was like WARGAMES after that.

Viking cities were in flames along with Ottoman, Egyptian, Aztec, Romans and the Persian!! Thinking that this might facture their very large Viking empire that spanned from Spain all the way to Russia, it just made them more determined after repated nuke blasts. Her smaller allies, did not fair so well and rebels took what was left of the smaller cities not hit by the nukes. I did hold my ground thoough, I did not lose my Persian colonies and while only losing one NW African city to a nasty stack of Viking marines and artillery. I bribed the Vikings with Refrigeration of all things for peace and focused my war effort instead to my space program.

It took me over 80 years to build the spaceship as I was hurting for the loss of hammers from my Indian and Persian colonies but a Space Race victory nonetheless.

jdog5000, thanks for creating RevAI as the Better AI mod built in to your Revolutions is just fantastic!! Can't wait to run my next game.

skallben · Mar 7, 2007

Im getting 18 civ's maxmimum, I thought Im supposed to get 24? Im running custom huge/terra maps.

Glider: Thanks for the reply, seems there was revolution spree during dark ages, things got more stabilized later except for some hotspots.

glider1 · Mar 8, 2007

skallben said:
Im getting 18 civ's maxmimum, I thought Im supposed to get 24? Im running custom huge/terra maps.

The good news is that Jdog5000 has now provided us with the detail we need to compile whatever combination of Revolutions and Better AI we want. :goodjob:

Jdog mentioned that it is as easy as specifying one line in the code for how many civs you want. For the moment though we are stuck with 18. I'm gunna try and allocate time to learning how to compile this code over coming weeks if I can get myself off actual in game time.

skallben said:
seems there was revolution spree during dark ages, things got more stabilized later except for some hotspots.

Once you get good at playing this mod, you can stabilise society enough to achieve whatever devious ambition you want. :cool:

Looks like you have or are working it out. :goodjob:

glider1 · Mar 8, 2007

Lapu-Lapu said:
The Vikings then finished building the United Nations and in 8 turns, the passed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. I had to cease production of ICBMs....

jdog5000, thanks for creating RevAI as the Better AI mod built in to your Revolutions is just fantastic!! Can't wait to run my next game.

I haven't experienced nuclear war yet late game. Looks like you enjoyed total mayhem for a while. You have given me some ideas....

The other interesting item is that you managed to hold onto some of your distant colonies without rebellion long term. One of the trickiest things for me playing Revolutions is how to build stable colonies on other continents sooner rather than later. It's not easy and there is more variables to factor in than with vanilla civ.

I'd be interested to here more stories on how distant colonies survive on other continents.

skallben · Mar 8, 2007

glider1 said:
Once you get good at playing this mod, you can stabilise society enough to achieve whatever devious ambition you want. Looks like you have or are working it out.

Yeah its going fine

My only concern was the AI having too many civil wars, making them an easy prey for me. Dominating my last game I restarted and I had both of my neighbors turn into civil war quickly, both had their capital revolt and spawn a new nation. I dunno if it has any effect but I spread Confusianism to them both quite fast (CoL Slingshot) and they both converted.
Ive now experienced how hard it can be to hold some towns though so it probably looks easier to warmonger them than it actually is.

PS. About colonies, I had one literally on the other side of the world and it turned out improving after a few cultural improvements. I brough a huge garrison though, 8 units I think.

About the CTRL+SHIFT+W menu btw, I need to have 6 units for it to say "Garrison" on the positive efffects. Now I wonder is there a specific bonus with reaching just 6 units in particular?

Lapu-Lapu · Mar 8, 2007

glider1 said:
The other interesting item is that you managed to hold onto some of your distant colonies without rebellion long term. One of the trickiest things for me playing Revolutions is how to build stable colonies on other continents sooner rather than later. It's not easy and there is more variables to factor in than with vanilla civ.

I'd be interested to here more stories on how distant colonies survive on other continents.

I found that taking much smaller CIVs early in like say, before the Renaissance period is key. I had nary one revolt on my entire African continent because I would key on resources, buildings, wonders that produced

along with the civics that allowed for maximum growth and happiness among my citizens. In that game, it was not difficult to keep my Persian colonies in the Middle East and Zulu colonies in India as I extended my border of influence to them. Right away these colonies benefit from the same resources via trade. I am also able to build buildings and wonders that also benefit my own Arab cities and not allow them to even consider revolting or causing civil war. I would probably have had a harder time if I have to keep colonists happy say in the Americas.

It doesn't make for an exciting play early in-game building theaters, coliseums, cathedrals and just keeping an eye at the number of

s especially in your biggest of cities BUT when you are ready to war or defend yourself from enemy - your citizens as well as your colonies are more ready to accept your cause. Just try not to use the DRAFT button too much or use the Police State civic for too long especially during times of war, they really don't like that too much and would demand for a fairer civic. More than likely, you will also have the technological advances as well with all the research and production all your cities and colonies produce to be able to muster against any invasion they throw at you.

bardolph · Mar 8, 2007

Is it possible to adjust the contribution of each factor to a city's Revolution Index?

For example, I'd like to make Tribalism less desirable than Slavery, so that citizens only revolt against Slavery when other civics are available.

Also, I had a strange occurrence in a recent game: EVERY SINGLE CITY revolted, all at once. When I chose to take control of the new civ, all of the cities joined the new civ, and the original civ was instantly destroyed.

Is this working as intended?

jdog5000 · Mar 9, 2007

skallben said:
Im getting 18 civ's maxmimum, I thought Im supposed to get 24? Im running custom huge/terra maps.

There is a 24 civ dll on the FP now for the RevAI merge.

skallben said:
About the CTRL+SHIFT+W menu btw, I need to have 6 units for it to say "Garrison" on the positive efffects. Now I wonder is there a specific bonus with reaching just 6 units in particular?

Slight spoiler warning ... the positive garrison effect requires 3 units I think for a effect of -1 rev index. The Rev Watch window only shows the Garrison effect when it reaches -2 in strength, and 6 units sounds about right. It uses a sqrt (or some other fractional power maybe, don't remember) so to get a larger effect you'll need an exploding number of defenders.

bardolph said:
Is it possible to adjust the contribution of each factor to a city's Revolution Index?

For example, I'd like to make Tribalism less desirable than Slavery, so that citizens only revolt against Slavery when other civics are available.

Also, I had a strange occurrence in a recent game: EVERY SINGLE CITY revolted, all at once. When I chose to take control of the new civ, all of the cities joined the new civ, and the original civ was instantly destroyed.

Is this working as intended?

Yes, these changes can be done by editing the XML. Check out the XML_FAQ.htm in your Revolution folder and ask if you have any questions.

And yes, it is entirely possible for your entire civ to revolt ... this is actually somewhat likely if the citizens feel oppressed, things are going wrong, you don't have much culture, etc. This is sort of like the French Revolution ...

glider1 · Mar 9, 2007

jdog5000 said:
There is a 24 civ dll on the FP now for the RevAI merge.

Slight spoiler warning ... the positive garrison effect requires 3 units I think for a effect of -1 rev index. The Rev Watch window only shows the Garrison effect when it reaches -2 in strength, and 6 units sounds about right. It uses a sqrt (or some other fractional power maybe, don't remember) so to get a larger effect you'll need an exploding number of defenders.

That is just great Jdog, thanks for the efforts muchly you are the one. The merge info like using winmerge, links to sources, the 24 civ dll on the first page. Also the spoiler is good stuff too. I hadn't realised the non-linear relationship between the numbers of peace keepers and the revolution index. :crazyeye:

I've pretty much discovered another tension in the Revolution Mod. That is the tension between expansion verses consolidation. Played a couple of scenario's out the other day where I consolidated a 6 city nation under Churchill in order to avoid revolution (things like drama, temples etc). In the other scenario I expanded Churchill to 9 cities riding the edge of rebellion a bit more. With the latter scenario, in the short term the people were pretty damn edgy with me but after stabilising the fledgling settlements (not growing the population too quick for example) the citizens in the old foundation cities were actually more content in the end. This was surprising especially considering they got less goodies in the expansionist scenario and no new resources from the settlements. It's a bit complicated though. The new settlements did double up on a couple of resources that were already available. This allowed me to trade them which might have improved the economy and diplomacy which had a positive impact on stability etc etc. Whatever, it's pretty darn cool.

Revolutions is painful when you are first learning. Like Bardoph experienced with an all out total collapse :cry:

Brilliant. Enjoy.

glider1 · Mar 12, 2007

Here are some of the cool effects on Warlords playing the Revolutions mod:

-> Periods of anarchy are now no longer just a mild annoyance. In the revolutions mod if you switch civics, you better be careful about the effect a couple of turns of anarchy will have on rebelliousness and disorder. A turn of anarchy can be the final straw that spews a city or cities into revolt leading to some truly ugly scenarios. :cool:

-> When a leader is overthrown in a civilisation you have been fostering good relations with, you have to treat the new leader differently. He or she may have a different personality to the overthrown leader. :cool:

-> If you are the weaker party in a war but pillage successfully, you can throw the stronger opponent into anarchy. His people may revolt and his city defenders wounded by it. This gives you a bit more chance at making in roads into the war and can be just the lift you need when things get tough. If nothing else, it makes for more options. If there are barbarians around, he will suffer more from them as well. However with Better AI, pillaging is more difficult :cool:

-> The ancient era game play is almost unchanged from vanilla warlords. This is a period when you can go to town on civs close to you and really make good on war without having to worry about the instability of cities with large populations. However if you conquer a civ, you better get ready for a potentially nasty hangover when you have to manage the stability of your civilisation that is now double it's original size. There are more things to consider about ancient era conquering. :cool:

-> The medieval era takes on a special character and complexity. Under despotism or heriditary rule, war is more complicated than vanilla because you have to think more carefully about allocating troops to offense in the field against peace keeping within and around your cities. The undercurrent of potential disloyality during this period is a real issue and reforms have to be thought through carefully. Sometimes you need a spare reserve of cash to pay off rebels :cool:

-> From the renaissance onwards you have more ways to win the loyalty of your citizens. If you do it right, the game begins to return more to the character of vanilla warlords allowing you to explore the whole gammut of the late game options more boldly. However, the late game is no where near as static. Your rival civ's may even collapse leaving a power vacuum. The late game is more interesting by an order of magnitude :cool:

I'd be interested to here of other "effects" of playing the Revolutions Mod. There are heaps of others pertaining to trade and religion. I'm sure there are a lot more cool effects.

I guess the purists still play vanilla warlords, but personally I don't know why they would. If you want theoretical purity in a strategy game, play chess don't play civ. Civ is about havin fun. :cool:

jdog5000 · Mar 14, 2007

I'm glad you're enjoying it so much glider! Here are a couple other things to consider:

- Religion can be a blessing or a curse. If all your cities have your religion (and not too many others), then running Organized Rel or even Theocracy can make your empire very stable. However, it will be difficult to keep control of any cities you might capture that don't have your religion so you must back up your swords with missionaries!

- If your empire has a wide range of religions, and your chosen religion isn't spread very well, you'll have to carefully keep the peace. Starting a Theocracy will quickly get you into serious trouble!

- Trading away luxuries must be carefully considered, but can also be a devious tool. If you have extra luxuries, you must decide who you're willing to trade them too. Your luxuries can do a lot to stabilize a rival empire, either friend or future foe, but they also present an opportunity. If you trade several luxuries with a neighbor, you can then wait for signs of trouble brewing in their empire. Canceling those deals at the opportune moment can push them over the edge into civil war, making them a ripe target.

- Civil wars in other empires, or attempts by colonies to break away, present great opportunities to grab some land or add a vassal. If a rival starts to fall apart, side with the rebels and launch your invasion. If a friend starts to fall apart, side with them but quickly grab some territory from the rebels.

Enjoy!

Revolution: with BarbarianCiv, Rebellion, AIAutoPlay

Revolutionary

Revolutionary

King

Attachments

Deity

Diplomat

Deity

Revolutionary

Revolutionary

Revolutionary

Chieftain

Diplomat

Deity

Deity

Diplomat

Chieftain

King

Revolutionary

Deity

Deity

Revolutionary

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