rework of movement promotions

[ilteroi]

ok guys, i've been considering a change to the movement promotions (woodsman, desert walker etc). the current effect is "double movement in x", but why on earth should you be moving faster in bad plots than in good plots?

so the proposal is to change this to:

• start the turn with an extra move on feature x (ie woodsman spears on forest will start with 3 moves)
• ignore feature x costs (but not terrain costs - hills will still cost 2 moves)

what is the general opinion on this?

 

[Txurce]

ok guys, i've been considering a change to the movement promotions (woodsman, desert walker etc). the current effect is "double movement in x", but why on earth should you be moving faster in bad plots than in good plots?

so the proposal is to change this to:

• start the turn with an extra move on feature x (ie woodsman spears on forest will start with 3 moves)
• ignore feature costs (but not terrain costs - hills will still cost 2 moves)

what is the general opinion on this?

Makes common sense, and doesn't really hurt the fun element. I'm for it.

 

[kawyua]

Ah man, I'm imagining that it will be so much less terrifying playing against the Iroquois with this. terrible trauma.

 

[ashendashin]

Yeah these changes would make sense but the promos will be a lot less appealing, especially for the shock line overall (I love woodsmen units for skipping through heavy forests). I'm all for it if they also get a buff when fighting in that terrain.
I still think scouts being faster in rough terrain is plain wrong.

 

[Stalker0]

So a pathfinder starting in grassland can only move onto 1 hill (consumes 2 moves).

But a pathfinder that starts in woods can cross 2 hills.

Ultimately that is still wonky to me. Personally I am ok with keeping ignore terrain and remove terrain accelerators all together if we wanted to. But if we are keeping accelerators, I see no reason to change.

 

[Moi Magnus]

ok guys, i've been considering a change to the movement promotions (woodsman, desert walker etc). the current effect is "double movement in x", but why on earth should you be moving faster in bad plots than in good plots?

so the proposal is to change this to:

• start the turn with an extra move on feature x (ie woodsman spears on forest will start with 3 moves)
• ignore feature costs (but not terrain costs - hills will still cost 2 moves)

what is the general opinion on this?

I'm not o fan of the suggestion. I would rather have "ignore terrain cost + defensive (and/or offensive) bonus on the good terrain".
(Or ignore ZOC when on the good terrain ? Maybe too complex)

 

[ilteroi]

the current defensive bonus won't change. although stuff like that is hard on the AI.

the pathfinder has the ignore terrain costs promotion, that also won't change (but see below).

what do you imagine is (right now) the difference between "ignore terrain costs" and "flat movement costs" by the way? i'm honestly not sure. but with the proposed change the difference is clear.

edit: so in the future it might be better to give the scout the "flat movement cost" promotion instead of "ignore terrain cost".

 

[Mad Madigan]

I think this sounds like a great suggestion, ilteroi. It definitely tones down the ability for scouting units to zip around jungles and deserts like they're in 4x4s without ruining the usefulness of the promotions for non-scout units.

 

[Infixo]

Seems like an uneccessary change. There are easier ways to stop scouts - simply don't give them the promotion! Or we suddenly have issues with basic promotion that's been here for years?
The whole idea of any promotion is that it gives some new abilities. There are 200+ of them and each one can be asked "why do I have this effect, maybe it should look different"? Then ok - use a different promotion. Double movements are basic promos, rooted in vanilla game. If we don't like them - just don't use them. But not change, these are like basic fundamental things.
Or if we want to change those movement patterns, then create a new promotion, and attach to whoever we want to.

 

[Txurce]

Seems like an uneccessary change. There are easier ways to stop scouts - simply don't give them the promotion! Or we suddenly have issues with basic promotion that's been here for years?
The whole idea of any promotion is that it gives some new abilities. There are 200+ of them and each one can be asked "why do I have this effect, maybe it should look different"? Then ok - use a different promotion. Double movements are basic promos, rooted in vanilla game. If we don't like them - just don't use them. But not change, these are like basic fundamental things.
Or if we want to change those movement patterns, then create a new promotion, and attach to whoever we want to.

We changed how ranged ships move. More than once. It seems like every day here someone suggests changing something that's been around for years. I don't see any reason why it can't happen in this case, if that's what's preferred. It being rooted in the vanilla game is hardly a good defense for anything, by the way!

 

[Deadstarre]

+1 to OP

 

[ryanmusante]

what is the general opinion on this?

good idea to at least change the initial promotion to scouts, or put the terrain bonus promotions farther down the line.

 

[RAuer2]

I don't think the change is needed. If the logic being used is "realism", then the promotion itself can be seen as special training and equipment possessed by the unit which enables the unit to function better in specific terrain types. I don't see "unrealistic" by itself as a good reason for change. Is there a game balance issue with movement promotions?

 

[Infixo]

We changed how ranged ships move.

Not true. You are confusing different usage of game features that CBO does with changes to core game that CP does.
If something can be solved on CBO level, there is no need to change anything on CP level.

 

[Txurce]

Not true. You are confusing different usage of game features that CBO does with changes to core game that CP does.
If something can be solved on CBO level, there is no need to change anything on CP level.

We changed how ranged ships move.

 

[bigcat88]

Don't understand what will become better with these changes. Do we have some problems now with units moving? If yes then can u explain them and how these changes will solve them.

 

[pza]

I dislike the proposed changes.

 

[ilteroi]

give the split verdict and that i discovered that the code more or less assumes a unit's base moves to be the same everywhere, i won't change anything. the potential for bugs is too high. and the potential for discussions as well

 

[tu_79]

This was discussed when we first talked about reworking scout promotions.

The most logical way to move is:
1. Promotions that give +1 movement.
+
2. Promotions that ignore movement cost in some terrain (with some other benefit).

A unit with woodsman could move in woods as fast as it was in flat terrain, mimicking scouts ability, but only in woods (forest, jungle, marsh).

But it went nowhere because some players like the way double movement works. Even if it has 0 sense.
The problem comes when you combine "ignore terrain cost" with "x2 movement in terrain". These scouts move faster on rough terrain than they do in flat terrain which is nonsense.

EDIT
An alternative:
1. Promotions that give +1 movement
+
2. Promotions that give x2 movement in a terrain type.

But never combine x2 in terrain with ignore movement cost.

 

[Stalker0]

This seems to be a topic that split the community. There are strong opinions in multiple directions. Ultimately I have to side with leave it as is, if there is not a clear mandate to change it (which I'm not seeing), than we shouldn't change it.