REXing your way to a domination victory?

[futurehermit]

Well, based on some of my other threads many of you will be familiar with the fact that I'm searching for my first convincing domination victory on emperor. Settings: patched warlords, emperor, continents, standard, normal.

My struggle has been: I manage to GS-lightbulb my way to liberalism effectively somewhere between 500AD and 1000AD all while wiping out one rival. Then I hit a roadblock. Although I'm ahead in tech I'm behind in power and struggle to produce enough units to complete my domination goal. I usually feel like I just don't have enough cities to produce units fast enough and usually have about 1/2 (give or take) the cities of my rivals at this point. While I've been warring and then teching peacefully, it seems they've continued to expand and then are producing units from 2x as many cities as me.

So, last night I fired up another game with Hatshepsut. And I said to myself: "I'm going to put everything I've got into getting and then continuing to have the largest number of cities".

Now this is no easy feat (at least for me) considering the production bonuses of the AI at this level.

But, my strategy worked quite well (I didn't finish the game, I played to 1:30am and then decided sleep was in order ). Here is basically what I did.

1) Research: mining-bronze-anhusb-writing-math-currency-col. 1st GS on alphabet around 700BC +/- to backfill skipped techs.

2) Building: worker-worker-settler-worker-settler. everything helped by chopping everything in sight. 1st city claimed a military resource (horses!) and started producing defenders then switched to more chopped workers and settlers. each new city produced defenders (as needed) and chopped workers and settlers until I was down to 10-20% science.

3) Research again: When my science started to drop below 50% i started libraries in all of my cities and set them all to work 2 scientists, stagnating them if necessary (even with all my cities i didn't have any resource! so i had a cap of 3 anyways so i just worked a food resource and stagnated at size 3). With so many scientists being worked my tech rate kept moving along at a very healthy clip.

4) Continuing to expand: Once the land started to fill up I checked my empire size. I was in the lead by 1-2 cities. So far so good, but I knew I had to keep it up, so I started cranking war chariots preparing for an invasion against brennus. Once I knew I had enough units and CoL came on board I started courthouses in all of my cities.

5) First war: I attacked Brennus somewhere around 500BC. I captured two more of his cities, razed 2 and then sued for peace when I couldn't take his remaining two core cities (incl. his capital). Ideally I would've taken them first, but they were furthest away from my empire. Now I had a nice lead in total cities although Gandhi was happily expanding his empire to my east (Brennus to my NW). He would be next to go after I took out Brennus.

6) Lightbulbing and civics: After alphabet, I used my next GSs to lightbulb philosophy and education (2). I switched to caste system and pacificism as soon as I lightbulbed philosophy.

7) Liberalism: You would think that running at around 10% science and emphasizing military that I would lose the liberalism race but with all of my scientists and lightbulbing I still got liberalism at my usual time (between 500 and 1000AD). I think it was somewhere around 800AD or so. I took printing press to eliminate it from the GS tech preference so I could use my next two GSs on chemistry, which I did.

8) My mistake: I stopped playing after I had built some grenadiers along with an unholy amount of siege units and was moving in to finish off Brennus. I felt like I was definitely in a strong position to win the game by domination, but I still felt like it could've been a lot stronger. I believe my mistake was reverting to my old habits when I was moving up the tech tree to liberalism. Instead of attacking Brennus again immediately after the 10 turns were up, I held off until I had grenadiers. I believe this was far too long to wait. Yes it would make it very easy to mop him up (which is why I usually do it), but I already had elephants and cataputs that would've performed serviceably. Although I still had the largest empire when I quit, I believe I would've finished Brennus sooner, still got liberalism, but slightly later, and then could've started on Gandhi with veteran units reinforced with grenadiers. This would've been a much stronger position and allowed me to have an even larger empire.

9) Conclusion: My hunch was correct. With the largest empire, it was MUCH easier to amass troops and keep the war train rolling. The initial REXing hurt my research slider, but thanks to the SE not my research. This is something that I've always believed the SE can do that the CE cannot: support a much larger empire, especially early on.

10) Questions:

Would this work with a non-creative civ? I'd like to try it with a philosophical civ, especially gandhi, but my fear is that needing monuments would delay border-popping and not having cheap libraries would result in taking longer to get research going in each city.

Because of happiness constraints (having NO resources in a 6-7 city empire prior to 500BC just wasn't fair imo ) I had to choose between whipping and specialists (this is a scenario--very low happiness--where I agree with some of my critics that whipping can hurt a SE). Since I felt that 0 research would hurt I chose specialists. I believe this was a good idea because getting currency and col really helps stop the bleeding and col opens up the philosophy lightbulb, which is really important imo. So, the question is: can we work slavery into the mix a bit more? I believe that with at least 1-2 happiness resources (gold, silver, fur, ivory, gems) I could've whipped more and kept specialists up 90% of the time. This would've helped a lot. Of course it didn't help that I didn't get an early religion spread to my empire or else I could've spread that and got 2 more happiness (1 state religion 1 cheap temple).

Is this approach better for a domination win than massing units asap? I guess it depends on how close your nearest neighbour is and whether you have copper or a horse-based early uu.

I will attempt to answer these questions next game I play, probably tonight, but I'd love to hear your feedback as well.

thx

 

[Jet]

If you're chopping everything in sight it shouldn't take long to get the Monuments, and you'll save a turn or two by having Fast Workers. Once you get CoL, Caste System and Spiritual can help you with your culture and research problems.

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah, you're right fast workers should compensate some. I'll play again and report back how it goes.

 

[lilnev]

Well done. Land is power. Just keep reminding yourself of that, land is the source of all power.

I usually feel like I just don't have enough cities to produce units fast enough and usually have about 1/2 (give or take) the cities of my rivals at this point.

Of course, the AI loves land even more, and will gladly settle on the tundra to claim that single Deer. Whatever. Tundra is not land, it is not power. So you can probably discount the AI's city count by about 1/4 to 1/3, depending on the map. When I reach land advantage, and I know that my land is good land, I'm confident that I can make up even large deficits in tech. In a recent game, I had many turns remaining on Civil Service when Mansa discovered Liberalism (around 500 AD, as I recall). But I was just finishing up a war which left me with a small land advantage, and I eventually beat him in the space race.

5) First war: I attacked Brennus somewhere around 500BC. I captured two more of his cities, razed 2 and then sued for peace when I couldn't take his remaining two core cities (incl. his capital). Ideally I would've taken them first, but they were furthest away from my empire. Now I had a nice lead in total cities although Gandhi was happily expanding his empire to my east (Brennus to my NW). He would be next to go after I took out Brennus.
...
8) My mistake: I stopped playing after I had built some grenadiers along with an unholy amount of siege units and was moving in to finish off Brennus. I felt like I was definitely in a strong position to win the game by domination, but I still felt like it could've been a lot stronger. I believe my mistake was reverting to my old habits when I was moving up the tech tree to liberalism. Instead of attacking Brennus again immediately after the 10 turns were up, I held off until I had grenadiers. I believe this was far too long to wait.

Sometimes it's better to fight a limited war against one opponent, sign peace, then turn on another opponent rather than going back to the original opponent right away. I can't say if that was the case in this game, but it wouldn't surprise me if Ghandi was leaving his cities weakly defended because he trusted you. Brennus is no threat now that he's half his original size. You can leave him in the technological dust and mop him up later with superior troops. Did you consider attacking Ghandi during the catapult/elephant phase? True, it reduces your trading opportunities, but it might secure enough land to be worth it.

Would this work with a non-creative civ? I'd like to try it with a philosophical civ, especially gandhi, but my fear is that needing monuments would delay border-popping and not having cheap libraries would result in taking longer to get research going in each city.

I think I like Creative more than most. Heck, I liked it before they added the cheap libraries. But it's certainly not essential. Either chopping or whipping can get you a quick monument. If you're playing an SE, Philosophical is probably just stronger.

Is this approach better for a domination win than massing units asap? I guess it depends on how close your nearest neighbour is and whether you have copper or a horse-based early uu.

I generally REX as long as I can, which is usually just 3 or 4 cities on immortal, sometimes only two, then plot my first war. If I have metal, that's an axe rush. Else catapults (I don't think much of base chariots except as anti-barbs, though either of the UUs are very servicable rush units). Everywhere gets granary and barracks, and some will get libraries. Plus monuments where needed, and (rarely) an early lighthouse, but courthouses generally have to wait until after the army's built. There may be a tense stage where I'm counting on loot from the first few conquests to keep my research from crashing completely.

It sounds like you've got a very solid early game, however, and you've correctly identified the weak spot as not doing enough with those catapults and elephants prior to Liberalism. Good luck, keep posting to let us know what you learn, and remember, land is power.

peace,
lilnev

 

[futurehermit]

Thanks lilnev, very true, very true.

I tried this out with Gandhi and it certainly didn't feel as strong as it does with Hatty. The lack of early border popping not only means inferior city placement early on, but it also delays access to forests in the outer ring meaning less early chopping. But, yeah, I think I'm going to keep with this mentality even if non-creative leaders aren't as good at it. I tried it out with Catherine (cheap settlers and cossacks to help with domination win). It worked quite well.

However, more things I've learned:

1) I started one game with Toku and Alex as neighbours. Had a nice Rex, but it was ruined when Alex declared war on me. So, if aggressive neighbours are near it's better to gear up military (duh).

2) Creative civs really do excel at this strategy with Hatty probably being the best by a wide margin. Not only the early border popping is great, but also the cheap libraries really help getting that infrastructure in place in a timely manner to keep the research up while the slider is crashing.

3) You must avoid fishing in order to pop alphabet in a timely manner with first GS otherwise it prefers sailing So, try and avoid cities (if possible) that really do require an early fishing boat.

4) It's important not to delay getting scientists started (asap) in order to get alphabet asap. Getting it in a timely manner will allow you to trade math to the ai to backfill techs so you can hold onto alphabet as long as possible.

 

[cabert]

1) I started one game with Toku and Alex as neighbours. Had a nice Rex, but it was ruined when Alex declared war on me. So, if aggressive neighbours are near it's better to gear up military (duh).

what you don't say

2) Creative civs really do excel at this strategy with Hatty probably being the best by a wide margin. Not only the early border popping is great, but also the cheap libraries really help getting that infrastructure in place in a timely manner to keep the research up while the slider is crashing.

3) You must avoid fishing in order to pop alphabet in a timely manner with first GS otherwise it prefers sailing So, try and avoid cities (if possible) that really do require an early fishing boat.

Do you really need to lightbulb alpha?
It's not cheap, sure, but it sounds like a waste to me...
+ if you wait long enough your emperial neighbours will have it, so it may be better to lightbulb other things.

4) It's important not to delay getting scientists started (asap) in order to get alphabet asap. Getting it in a timely manner will allow you to trade math to the ai to backfill techs so you can hold onto alphabet as long as possible.

holding on alphabet isn't really an option anymore.
improved AIs will research it.
It feels like a lost quest to me.

 

[futurehermit]

Re: lightbulbing alpha. i know it feels like a waste. the first time i did it, i didn't plan it. i just got my first gs, looked at what it could bulb and it said alphabet. i was like...hmmm...that's handy, maybe i can bulb it and trade math before the ais get it. worked like a charm. now that i have had time to practice it a bit more i find that it works great. why? a few reasons. this early rexing is all about speed (in the sense of fewest turns to do everything). there are certain techs that i don't want to research myself, but that i need, so that i can keep self-researching currency and col. they include: IW (key esp if no copper), masonry (to unlock construction, also key), medit (for phil lightbulb, i probably self-research myst unless can lump it into IW/masonry trade), pottery (for granaries), fish/sail (if any coastal cities)...yeah, basically all the techs I skipped I hope you see what I mean though. I want to get everything set up in my empire while beelining currency and col so that I can avoid going into strike mode and so I can also prepare for my first assault.

Re: keeping alphabet. i only keep it for a bit. i try and hold out on trading it for a bit, especially until i'm done trading math around. then i trade it once the ai has another batch of stuff i need and i have nothing else to trade. i definitely would start to shop it if i sensed the ai was researching it (you can get a sense based on what they would offer you for it. if it's not much they're prob researching it).

conclusion: yeah, it seems like a waste, but it really does help a LOT during a critical time so i don't feel like it's a waste. subsequent GSs are spent as per usual (phil-ed-etc.)

 

[cabert]

I have the feeling you'll be hitting WFYABTA limit with philo trading, am I right?

 

[futurehermit]

possibly, but i'm ok with that. my strategy is usually to shut down trading with my continent once i'm pushing for liberalism. this is because i want to then keep my continent as backwards in tech as possible because i am planning on invading them asap and i want to keep them from getting gunpowder units for as long as possible. instead, i just self-research until the other continent's ais start showing up and then trade with them

plus, there's not much i need to research. my new strategy is to take printing press with liberalism and then self-research gunpowder. then i use 2 GSs on chemistry. at that point i don't need research for awhile since i throw everything into massing lots of grenadiers to mop up my continent.

 

[cabert]

possibly, but i'm ok with that. my strategy is usually to shut down trading with my continent once i'm pushing for liberalism. this is because i want to then keep my continent as backwards in tech as possible because i am planning on invading them asap and i want to keep them from getting gunpowder units for as long as possible. instead, i just self-research until the other continent's ais start showing up and then trade with them

plus, there's not much i need to research. my new strategy is to take printing press with liberalism and then self-research gunpowder. then i use 2 GSs on chemistry. at that point i don't need research for awhile since i throw everything into massing lots of grenadiers to mop up my continent.

sounds good

 

[dar]

Would this work with a non-creative civ? I'd like to try it with a philosophical civ, especially gandhi, but my fear is that needing monuments would delay border-popping and not having cheap libraries would result in taking longer to get research going in each city.

You could try it with the Incas - their granaries give a culture bonus. Use a FE for all those cities and getting libraries much of a problem since you can just slaverush them.

 

[futurehermit]

the thing about the incas though is that 1) they're financial meaning you'd rather be working cottages than specialists and 2) pottery isn't my preferred route to writing since i want anhusb to reveal horses.

 

[cabert]

granaries are really powerful on the growth front
getting them later always makes me wonder if it was worth the delay

 

[futurehermit]

^that's true, very true. i'd like to work them in. maybe i will try getting pottery before writing. it will make writing cheaper, right? so maybe that is the way to go.

 

[cabert]

^that's true, very true. i'd like to work them in. maybe i will try getting pottery before writing. it will make writing cheaper, right? so maybe that is the way to go.

right, one more prereq makes writing cheaper
but if you're trying to gun forward, it's not a good deal.
Beelining is still better for fast advance.

 

[futurehermit]

yeah, that's my sense as well. plus, if there is limited resources i don't whip much early anyways since i will stagnate my cities running 2 scientists. i can only afford to whip if i can stagnate at size 3 working 2 scientists off of one food source + city. this is possible at 4 but better at size 5. so if i have 2 resources i'll whip regularly and 1 whip carefully and 0 no whip.

i am trying to play my games now making use of every civic as best as possible as they become available.

so this is kinda how i do it.

1) hereditary rule (once i get monarch)-->representation (once i get constitution)-->universal sufferage (once i get democracy). using police state only if necessary

2) bureaucracy (once i get cs)-->vassalage (once i trade for feudalism, gives me promotion 2 units with barracks)-->nationhood (once i get nationalism, for drafting units to help in post-liberalism warfare)-->free speech (once i get democracy)

3) slavery (once i get bronze)-->caste system (once i get CoL and lightbulb phil)-->serfdom (once i hit gunpowder, i.e., i can then lightbulb chemistry which is the last one i really need)-->emancipation (once i get democracy)

4) mercantilism (once i trade for banking)-->free market (once i hit economics)-->state property (once i hit communism). env'talism only if necessary

5) pacificism (once i lightbulb phil)-->free religion (once i hit liberalism). org religion and theocracy only as needed.

Basically, the way the civics come online really supports a SE early transitioning to a CE later (serfdom nicely comes online in the middle to aid the transition). I believe this is the strongest way to play the game, so I am trying to follow this approach. Too bad at emperor+ it is so damn hard to get pyramids because ideally you would want to run representation all during the early years!!!

 

[lilnev]

I haven't experimented with lightbulbing Alphabet, but it sounds promising. If I have a GS that early (I usually don't unless I'm Philosophical), I generally build an academy in my capital. But I play mostly CE, supplemented with a few early GSs for key techs, starting with Philosophy. I usually get both Pottery and AH before Writing, research Alphabet, and look to trade it for Math and IW, and sometimes Masonry/Sailing/Polytheism.

I sometimes hit a tough research spot right after that: the four C's (Calendar, Construction, Currency, CoL; I don't care about Compass) and Monarchy. Those are the key economic and military techs for the next stage of the game. I've tried researching MC, because the AI usually doesn't (though sometimes they'll take it off the Oracle) and it's valuable enough to trade for any of them. But MC takes so long. And this is sometimes the point where my economy is stalling from my first major war. Lately I've experimented with researching Drama. It does nothing by itself, but it cheaply unlocks Philosophy, which is my saving grace to trade for those key techs.

I'm going to play around with lightbulbing Alphabet a few times and see what I think....

peace,
lilnev

 

[futurehermit]

yeah, let me know what you think. the nice thing about going math-currency-col and bulbing alphabet is that if you do it fast enough you can trade all four of those techs! (assuming an ai doesn't take col off the oracle). on top of that you can trade phil when you bulb it with your next GS. that's a lot of good trading opportunities whereas if you go for alphabet first, the ai will generally beat you to math and possibly currency leaving you in the situation you aptly described (which i always found myself in as well): how the heck do i get currency and col (ai always beats me to calendar no matter what it seems )?

i'm really pumped about this new build and i'm going to play around with it a bunch more. i'm convinced that it will allow the largest possible early expansion which will give you enough land that you should be able to leverage a win once you are finally able to settle down and start building infrastructure.

i think it was cabert in this or another thread who pointed out that currency allows you to build wealth. that's something i always forget to consider and i'm going to try that next game. basically stagnate cities at happiness limit (3-4-5) and build wealth once all the other immediately relevant stuff is out of the way all the while running 2 specialists. this will mean that the city is producing wealth and research while running the science slider effectively at 0 and not working a single cottage this should allow me to support at least 8 cities very early on allowing me to put down forbidden palace asap to further support the expansion effort.

 

[johnny_rico]

I don't suppose it's possible to work mysticism in there very early and try chopping stonhenge. That would get you your monument in every city for the 1 culture point. If you started with a leader with mysticism, you might get buddhism.

Or, Augustus Ceaser, creative and organized. Cheap courthouses and libraries. I might give him a go with this approach. Seems like iron working should be worked in somehow (kind of a waste to not use praetorians as early as possible). I'm not certain if AC starts with fishing.

I have a question for you futurehermit: If your happiness cap was 3 and you were working food tiles for scientists, how were you producing units? Seems like it would've real slow going as you stated you were avoiding slavery.

On using the GS for alpha: seems like I'd have problems pushing the button. Your pouring so many beakers down the drain. Unsafe lab practice as it is, I'd try burning a GS on alphabet. This is all interesting stuff no doubt.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Futurehermit, interesting thread this . I like the idea of going with a different research path: math and col, lightbulbing alphabet. I don't think you can get currency in time for trade trade value but math and col will do and you can monopolize alphabet for a while also enhancing the chances for GL. You were really unlucky in this game to get no happiness resource whatsoever. I used to found a religion to raise the cap with 2 (state religion and temple) but this is too expensive in the early game on emperor. I wonder about one thing, how can you train enough units if you have 2 specialists while working one resource in those 3 capped cities? I typically have 1 specialist /city on average in cities that are 4-5 in size.

@Lilnev, i also go for drama generally after literature. Trade value of this tech is huge because no ai researches it (execpt for Ghandi maybe). I can't get other techs for it but i tend to get more than 1000 gold for it, financing research and early expansion. It's not a worthless tech either, when at war my units are not in the cities for Hereditary rule so i use culture slider enabled by drama to regulate happiness. I always feel i get back the investment in this tech with interest. It slightly hurts your chances for the liberalism race though, Col then CS is fastest.