RFC Classical World

[CrossRFC]

I'm sorry, I didn't specify: the changes are dictionary-only. Your ods file is in sync with my changes.

The axeman idea seems interesting. I would change its name to medium infantry or something. The legion can be such a type of unit, and the Roman heavy spearman can use Roman Triarii art. Same with Galicians and Falxmen. Gallic warriors could stay our original axeman, which represents a lighter or less organised type of infantry.

Also, the city name map ODS file lacks the coloration of the mountains and seas that it use to have, at least on my side. Is that the same for everyone else?

There is one change that needs to be made in the ODS file: Pattala -> Patala. I don't think it's worth posting the new file for a single find-replace.

 

[srpt]

those changes are in

my ods file has peaks and water.

I have seen the Romans hold a Mesopotamian city for at least 5 turns in a recent test

 

[CrossRFC]

I have also seen the Romans hold Mesopotamia in a test today. It seems all is well.

Played an Armenia game. Pontus may be getting in the way of the Roman threat to Armenia. I spawned in the "worst-case" scenario: Romans had annexed all Seleucid lands west of Susa. However, once I blitzed Syria, combined with the Parthian spawn and the Judean spawn, they never returned to offer any resistance. Roman might is oftentimes a "one-time" rush (from the free units), accompanied by powerlessness, rather than driving might in the homeland. Buffing Italy's military strength may help to solve this issue, and/or a more aggressive Roman policy against Pontus when that civ conquers indy Byzantion, even Pella!

 

[DrZomboss]

There are some REALLY GRAVE MISTAKES, like:
There are 2 Qufu towns on the 320 BC map, so one must become "City" after a civ conquer both
I don't think Parthians starting txt should be "Mithridates of Parthia has...", because Mithridates is a Pontic leader, Arsaces is Parthian
Why they are some corrupted starting texts, like : TXT_KEY_CIV_BIRTH_GUPTA, or TXT_KEY_CIV_BIRTH_AXUM ?
And finally, the most important one : in the new version, I can't play on any other map than 320 BC, because other scenarios just freeze when the loading screen says : "Finishing"

 

[strangess]

I suck at searching. Does anyone remember if the following is a known issue?

I've had the game crash on me several times lately during this mod. At the exact same time, all the free space on my (admittedly small) OS partition is used up and I get a low space warning. However, almost all of the space consumed was some manner of temporary space. and after either running disk cleanup, or adding and uninstalling a program, my space is restored to me. I have not had a low space issue in two or three months before this, and when I did have such an issue, I knew what was causing it. None of the regular causes apply. I may be wrong and mis attributing the space issue to the crash, though...

...But I'm not, this may indicate something in the mod is causing the crash. Been playing this mod for two weeks and liking it a lot. The crashes so far have only happened when playing Pontus ( the power I've been playing exclusively) but instead of founding Sinope, I pay 5gp to the Green Greeks (can't remember how to spell their name >_> ) get open borders, charge my guys through and conquer Byzantion (which then becomes my capital). the error keeps happening roughly around 195BC. (I restarted the game once, to see if that helped. It didn't help with the savegame I had. It didn't help with the game I played with the same strategy from a restart either.

I am impressed at the effort gone into the naming, but while it's important to flavour, I think there's a few things on the list that need addressing:
( 1 ) The Romans in particular and the AI in general are very reluctant to found cities.
( 2 ) I don't get the idea the AI are using slaves very well. their production seems very weak compared to mine even in cities of comparable terrain to my production centers.
( 3 ) Historically, major cities (excepting that weird thing in the Mediterranean rim around 1000 BC or the Mongols) were not razed. Stuff like what Rome did to Carthage were the exception, not the rule. But in terms of gameplay, genocide is the best strategy by far: it deprives your neighbours of resources while letting you avoid stability issues, gets you a ton of slaves, and even acts as a plague buffer. I think there needs to be a "conquer harshly/conquer to incorporate" option, and the Romans and possibly some others should get a bonus to both.

(I don't know if the engine supports this but there should be an option to build a great project to move a city to a nearby square. You'd have two options: either pay tons to move it sooner, or designate a target square based on some village improvement and then lower the cost the more advanced the village gets. allow the village to collect resource merchant migration too and lower the cost based on that, too. (you don't have to even fiddle not having them have an effect, since they only modify city stats, and the village isn't a city until the migration finishes) )

( 4 ) the naval AI's a bit weak, esp for major empires which have hte resources to spare to develop and use a navy.

( 5 ) The caravan mechanic doesn't seem to punish you for sending a caravan to the same city over and over? so just find the city with the best yield and only send there? Also I find it odd that Syracuse was the best place for me to send my caravans as Pontus (in Europe). I sense a "modified for not being on the same continent"...really, I'd love to see a system a bit like Civ 2 restored....but if that's not happening, some slow shift in "where's best to trade at" ?

(6) I really think there needs to be some sort of logistics rule. not a necessarily tremendously restrictive one. But Pontus should not be off genociding Meroe or Saba for slaves _without having any Pontian cities anywhere near these areas_. Open borders shouldn't count for much in logistics because an ally letting you move through them and an ally acting as a supply point are two different things. Just some sort of "X number of squares from a home city" with possibly some extenders for vassals or certain tech?

(7) the minor powers don't seem to have any restrictions on which cities they'll accept as gifts. Rome and Parthia were picky, but Armenia and Saba could take anything in my empire.

The barbarian AI is better than most games but survivors should run and strengthen the next wave rather than hang around to suicide into you.

Really love the mod though. Glad it's still getting active development. Very happy with the modeling for slavery. not perfect, but the best treatment I've seen in civ yet.

 

[DrZomboss]

Also, Panormus is Panormus for all the civs... except for the Romans which don't found Panormus, but Ziz
Make some Greek names in south Italy (I know, in this period they weren't there, but it is annoying to found Roman cities with the Greeks)
Saguntum was a Greek city, so maybe change its name to Sagounton
Artashat should be Artaxata for the Greeks and Romans

 

[DrZomboss]

And there should be a possibility to trade workers and slaves undecide: Other units too? ), and also AI shouldn't become vassals for nothing....

 

[Sitalkas]

I think barbarian activity should be nerfed a little bit

production is slow, mercs+civics upkeep+inflation+... make you have the tech bar to no more than 10% ,war is constant even without your will, and on top of these I have barbarian roaming my territory every turn! at least give my units some time to heal ! well in that occasions I think that WB is a must! thank god we have it!

 

[srpt]

I think barbarian activity should be nerfed a little bit

where and when?

And there should be a possibility to trade workers and slaves

I think I can make this happen but what is the need? I use all my slaves for production.

I've had the game crash on me, The crashes so far have only happened when playing Pontus

if you can give me a save I will look into it

The Romans in particular and the AI in general are very reluctant to found cities.

this is true. I will fix it somehow

production is slow, mercs+civics upkeep+inflation+... make you have the tech bar to no more than 10% ,war is constant

my approach is to make the game really hard and then slowly moderate it. those moderations are happening. I have played some of the heavily barb-affected civs (Bactria, Tocharians, Gojoseon) and manged (barely) to conquer and tech at the same time. I guess I should balance viceroy and emperor a bit now.

I don't get the idea the AI are using slaves very well.

you're right, working on it

good news! I figured it out! there was a stipulation that building rushing was only for wonders. I took it out and I have seen the AI use slaves to rush a monument.

the minor powers don't seem to have any restrictions on which cities they'll accept as gifts. Rome and Parthia were picky, but Armenia and Saba could take anything in my empire.

I will get to this eventually. gifting cities to small civs is a cheese tactic imo

The caravan mechanic doesn't seem to punish you for sending a caravan to the same city over and over? so just find the city with the best yield and only send there?

The barbarian AI is better than most games but survivors should run and strengthen the next wave rather than hang around to suicide into you.

the naval AI's a bit weak, esp for major empires which have hte resources to spare to develop and use a navy.

regular BtS behaviour afaik

Pontus should not be off genociding Meroe or Saba for slaves _without having any Pontian cities anywhere near these areas

I really doubt I can keep this from happening. at least there is a mechanic for them to not keep those cities.

Historically, major cities (excepting that weird thing in the Mediterranean rim around 1000 BC or the Mongols) were not razed. Stuff like what Rome did to Carthage were the exception, not the rule. But in terms of gameplay, genocide is the best strategy by far: it deprives your neighbours of resources while letting you avoid stability issues, gets you a ton of slaves, and even acts as a plague buffer.

perhaps a temporary happiness penalty and a stability check?

alternatively you could have option of just leaving the city alone. it goes indy with a weak defense and probably gets picked up by your powerful neighbor or by barbs, either way an extra challenge/possible challenge. this also seems realistic to me. why should you not have this option?

the borders of Gansu have changed so that Dunhuang is in that province. so for the 1st Han goal you do not need to found a new city in Gansu but you do need to control Dunhuang and either Kashgar or Khotan.

 

[DrZomboss]

New Carthage in Greek -->Neos Karkedon

 

[Sitalkas]

where and when?


my approach is to make the game really hard and then slowly moderate it. those moderations are happening

I play as the Antigonids, fun game no UHV, trying to build a big empire! Barbs coming from south and western Africa and attack Egypt, Scythians attack Byzantium and Pella, Arabs attack Babylon and Kushans attack Seleucia! They are everywhere! and since production is slow I can only manage to kill them with mercs! but this is ruining my economy! So tech slide is at 0 (!) % and only 2 cities actually produce something, all other cities build wealth!

I agree with your approach, and I really like it and support it, but the game pace is a bit faster than the construction rate! 18 turns to build a heavy spearman means that barbs will eventually capture all my cities before I actually build one! maybe if barracks would give a +20% for melee units and lowering the cost of tannery+textile factory and will help

 

[Sitalkas]

New Carthage in Greek -->Neos Karkedon

Nea Karchidon actually, Karthage is a female name in Greek

 

[CrossRFC]

I suck at searching. Does anyone remember if the following is a known issue?

[SNIP]

edit: srpt addressed most of this, so consider his post as the official stance, although we come to similar conclusions.

It has occasionally crashed on me once or twice, but nothing systematic. Usually a crash is connected to some kind of in-game event (like Rome's spawn in 270 BC, which used to cause severe lag thereafter, with the occasional crash due to loading times), but 195 BC doesn't ring any bells. I've played Pontus recently, and no issues. Quite strange.

1) Settlers are fairly expensive at the moment, and production is slow in many cities, especially AI-controlled cities (and for humans too!). See #2.

2) It's a delicate balancing act with production going on right now. It used to be that civs were far too productive, although lately I admit the issue tends to be the opposite.

3) AI does not raze cities anymore, but as a player, the choice is up to you. Razing was not unheard of, but generally, as you say, it's a pretty bad idea to raze a city, especially considering most of them are pre-placed for maximum efficiency. Also, if the city isn't in your stability zone, you may choose to just leave the area barren rather than occupy it.

Oh, and Corinth and Volsinii are two cities I know were razed in or around that period, and that after the most superficial of searches!

(I don't know if the engine supports this but there should be an option to build a great project to move a city to a nearby square. You'd have two options: either pay tons to move it sooner, or designate a target square based on some village improvement and then lower the cost the more advanced the village gets. allow the village to collect resource merchant migration too and lower the cost based on that, too. (you don't have to even fiddle not having them have an effect, since they only modify city stats, and the village isn't a city until the migration finishes) )

I don't know about srpt or anyone else, but this seems unncessarily complicated, given I've essentially never had any gripes about city placement, except for maybe a population 1 or 2 city I've razed, which is not a great loss.

4) BtS's naval AI sucks very badly. A sad limitation of Civ IV

5) The caravan unit is just kind of... there at the moment. You're right to point out that it is pretty limited, because it is. A change might come at some point.

6) That sounds like more of a civ thing than an RFC thing. We've tried limiting conquest by stability zone, but it didn't work out well (see my post about the Romans suicidically throwing themselves at the walls of a city that constantly flipped to indy due to the old mechanic).

7) Not much to say about this other than agreeing that it happens, although generally they'll accept one city, and then everything will turn red. I think it's because the smaller civs see themselves having "room for more".

Barbarian aggressiveness is core to the barbarian AI. They're the kind to stupidly crash into your cities rather than wait, because of their AI personality. I've seen them do smart things, like pillage before crashing into your cities though. Play Bactria and you won't be concerned about the barbarian AI being dim (because you'll be concerned with every improvement being sacked into ruin and even losing cities). Because of the 10-xp cap from barbarians, their "suicide into your walls" is not exploitable, however, so it could be worse. Also keep in mind that the AI has no idea that more barbarians are going to magically appear in the steppe in a few turns due to a piece of Python code. As far as they're concerned, the barbarians currently on the maps are the only ones that ever were or will ever be, so they try to rush a city in the hopes of taking it (which they can, if they're lucky or in enough numbers).

I don't mean to sound dismissive with a point-by-point reply to your post; most of what you say is correct, if a little ambitious.

 

[srpt]

I play as the Antigonids, fun game no UHV, trying to build a big empire!

there are modifiers that give basically 1 extra barb per stack if the human player owns certain provinces. you are getting extra barbs from owning so many of those provinces

lowering the cost of tannery+textile factory and will help

yes. made them 60 hammers, like a fairground

Barbs coming from south and western Africa and attack Egypt, Scythians attack Byzantium and Pella, Arabs attack Babylon and Kushans attack Seleucia! They are everywhere! and since production is slow I can only manage to kill them with mercs! but this is ruining my economy! So tech slide is at 0 (!) % and only 2 cities actually produce something, all other cities build wealth!

you are a primitive despotism trying to control a huge empire. you need things like bureaucracy, engineering (for tradesmen specialists) and a few libraries

BtS's naval AI sucks very badly. A sad limitation of Civ IV

I still would like to get the harbor/airport thing happening. I got stuck on a weird point: how to calculate the pathing of a naval unit that isn't there, to prevent jumping over landmasses in an unrealistic way. however, it may be that I just got a bit too fussy about it and the really bad things like jumping the caucasus or the sinai can be prevented with a hardcoded map.

The caravan unit is just kind of... there at the moment.

possible future plan for caravans: companies spread very weakly to human controlled cities and must be retrieved from ai cities by caravans (and a ship equivalent) and brought back.

you could probably also use them to create trade deals with indy cities

the ai uses them as recon so they do contribute to civs meeting each other and what could be more realistic than that? certain civs should be made to build them more than others though, I will get to that.

the minor powers don't seem to have any restrictions on which cities they'll accept as gifts. Rome and Parthia were picky, but Armenia and Saba could take anything in my empire.

Not much to say about this other than agreeing that it happens, although generally they'll accept one city, and then everything will turn red. I think it's because the smaller civs see themselves having "room for more".

core and normal regions have to be the factor here. I will get to it, I'm sure its possible.

About Swordsmen/Heavy Infantry

I think the problem may be that swordsmen are coming too late. I was always pushing them back, not wanting their appearance as barbs to crash Rome early and not wanting anyone else to get them early and become a super power. this can be fixed by simply giving AI Rome in 220AD either swordsmen starting, with the techs to build them, or 1 tech away, and nerfing swordsmen a bit so that they don't tip the balance against Persia. Swordsmen would require Scale Armor and Steel Working. Heavy Infantry would require Blast Furnace and Chainmail and be better at attacking cities and melee units than swordsmen but no real upgrade vs cavalry, ie just a bit better than Heavy Spearmen. does that make sense?

 

[Sitalkas]

you are a primitive despotism trying to control a huge empire. you need things like bureaucracy, engineering (for tradesmen specialists) and a few libraries

correct ! what I am trying to do is to build slowly a great empire, it all would be better if I had less barbarians, I've no problem with wealth being built in most of the cities!
that hidden modifier was something I wasn't aware of!

also I noticed that the 12 apostles didn't spawn when Christianity was founded! did you remove that feature ?

 

[CrossRFC]

I still would like to get the harbor/airport thing happening. I got stuck on a weird point: how to calculate the pathing of a naval unit that isn't there, to prevent jumping over landmasses in an unrealistic way. however, it may be that I just got a bit too fussy about it and the really bad things like jumping the caucasus or the sinai can be prevented with a hardcoded map.

Hmm, I'd need to take a look at the code behind the airport airlift function from vanilla civ IV. The AI has to know its options, so wherever it is getting its list of options from should be made to consider only ports within its "area" (Indian sea rectangle, Chinese sea rectangle, Mediterranean, etc.) I don't think going at it programmatically (i.e. finding a path from one to the other) is a good manner of going about it, both in your coding time and in its performance, if you have a hardcoded map (which we do!) Hardcoded, this can be solved O(1), which is much more preferable to a best-case O(n log n) algorithm, probably O(n^2), or worse.

 

[srpt]

yeah I was being a bit ambitious. wouldn't it be cool to have a modpack that worked with anything that actually made naval logistics an advantage, as they've always been.

there is an unused map in the mod, leftover from SoI, that could be used to designate different bodies of water. I will get something working so we can try it. Rome could be a fearsome opponent with that ability.

I was thinking of 2 abilities:

harbor to harbor, using the airport tag, long range, maybe the whole medditerranean?

harbor to beach landing, using paradrop tag, shorter range

the most incongruous thing that will still be allowed would be beach landings that are close as the crow flies but are actually distant in terms of ship travel ie going around long landmasses. no big deal.

also I noticed that the 12 apostles didn't spawn when Christianity was founded! did you remove that feature ?

I can't decide what to do with this. perhaps I will put it back since people have asked about it. its just a bit scripted.

vanilla religion spread is off btw and replaced with python stuff, religion and region specific, so very adjustable so let me know what you see.

 

[srpt]

Quote:
I don't get the idea the AI are using slaves very well.
you're right, working on it

good news! I figured it out! there was a stipulation that building rushing was only for wonders. I took it out and I have seen the AI use slaves to rush a monument.

in case anyone missed this. I'm quite happy about it myself. it could make a significant difference to some AIs.

 

[CrossRFC]

I'll see how the AI performs with this fix in my next game

harbor to harbor should require logistics, harbor to beach landing should require logistics & naval warfare. Maybe you have different techs in mind, but it should definately be a tech-based ability. Is that possible, or are those functions associated strictly to buildings/units and not techs?

and if we're going to do this, would blockades have any effect? You'd have to figure out which cities are being blockaded, of course. And for the beach landing it would also be a tad complex... Of course, if blockading has an effect, it is easily exploitable by building a superior navy than any AI civ, which is quite easy, further AI buffs nonwithstanding.

 

[srpt]

yes it would be tech dependent. since we're already letting this slip past enemy ships why bother with the blockade thing? we're basically saying that ships can slip past each other, which is realistic enough for me.